338 réponses à ce sujet

[RogueAI]

The shooter gamers are too stupid to realize that you have to fire in bursts. If anything, the overheating system was great, because it forced you to fire in short, controlled, bursts. Kind of like what the real military wants people to do. Might make people think before they decide to unload their weapons.

But then again, Bioware has completely abandoned the universe, and are selling it out to anyone one who is willing to pay. They are going to milk this series dry, and I don't blame them. There are a lot of fanboys who will buy any crap they put out.

[Veex]

RogueAI wrote...

The shooter gamers are too stupid to realize that you have to fire in bursts. If anything, the overheating system was great, because it forced you to fire in short, controlled, bursts. Kind of like what the real military wants people to do. Might make people think before they decide to unload their weapons.

I'm pretty sure shooter gamers are pretty well acclimated to why you fire in bursts (recoil) and limited ammo systems. And you don't have to use controlled bursts in Mass Effect at all. It takes far too long for weapons to overheat for it to be an issue.

[NickolasDS]

I must be one of those fan-boys. Cheers!

[annotated]

lVerticall wrote...

 I was very hopeful for them but after playing enough it feels like a step backward. Reloading the thermal clips takes just as much time as letting a weapon cool down in ME 1. Also instead of searching for crates with weapons, armor, upgrades, etc, as in the first ME I find myself spending a lot of time searching for ammo, which is much harder to spot. 

 I think a hybrid system would have been much better. Once you fire a certain amount of shots you can either wait for your weapon to cool down as in the first ME or reload the thermal clips, which would be a much more rapid option.

Who likes the new system and why? What changes would you make?

I see that I'm not the only one disappointed by the addition of thermal clips to the combat mechanics. Granted it may make the combat more challenging, and I had to use different tactics than in ME1, but I found it much more enjoyable to search for new weapons and armor in ME1 than it was to search in order to refill clips in ME2.

I agree that a hybrid system would be better. Or they could possibly have both types of weapons exist with certain balances between them such as damage/penetration vs cool-down/reload.

[sinosleep]

RogueAI wrote...

The shooter gamers are too stupid to realize that you have to fire in bursts. If anything, the overheating system was great, because it forced you to fire in short, controlled, bursts. Kind of like what the real military wants people to do. Might make people think before they decide to unload their weapons.

But then again, Bioware has completely abandoned the universe, and are selling it out to anyone one who is willing to pay. They are going to milk this series dry, and I don't blame them. There are a lot of fanboys who will buy any crap they put out.

Are you joking? Did you play ME 1? If any game is forcing you to watch your fire it's ME 2, not ME 1. ME 2 rewards you with headshots and location based damage for taking your time. ME 1 all you did was buy a spectre gear assault rifile, put in two frictionless materials, and quite literally spray non stop for a minute without your targeting reticule getting any larger. Spectre gear completely trivialized combat in ME 1.

p.s. If you knew anything about anything, you'd know that if any gamers are going to know something about controlled burst it's the shooter fans. Being as, you know, they've BEEN PLAYING SHOOTERS WHERE IT'S IMPORTANT TO DO THAT SINCE THEY'VE BEEN GAMING YOU GIANT MUPPET.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 janvier 2010 - 11:16 .

[jamoau]

Searching around for glowing red things is a pita, made even worse in dark environments. Shame reallly an innovative hybrid system would have been fun.

[sinosleep]

What is with all these people complaining about searching clips. Do you not look around for anything else in the game? Like, oh I don't know, wall safes? Terminals to hack? Data pads? Weapons lockers? You know what you usually find while looking for those things? AMMO. It's such a ridiculous complaint when you think about it.

[Romeriez Galenar]

its more than a bit immersion killing to be in a situation where you SHOULD be hurrying to stop an important event but instead are crawling around on your hands and knees looking for ammo. Also for the record, I never spray ammo around wildly..there's not enough ammo in the whole game to be doing that.

[MassEffect762]

It's alright BUT kinda pointless, your teammates don't run out. All I have to do is hold back if I'm low.

[Darth Garrus]

sinosleep wrote...

Think what you will but it doesn't apply. It'd be like saying, well in KOTOR my ubre upgraded lightsaber killed even the highest level mobs in 2 hits therefore the lore of KOTOR must now reflect that there are lightsabers out there that can do as such and if not it's breaking the lore.

Having that specific weapon with those particular upgrades and it's ability to essentially fire forever without any kind of drawback isn't a part of the lore. What it is is a broken gameplay mechanic.

I´m not one of the people who are furious about the change (although, I prefered before). But I think you got that one wrong. At least from my point of view, the idea is that, centuries after our present time, and after making contact with aliens and all that, we would be able to build weapons that you could, for example, put 2 ounces of, let´s say "metal", and the technology would allow it to take just a small particle of it, and expell it in such speed that would become a proper projectile (with the use of mass effect fields and etc). That would make the ammunition virtually inifinite. At least you would not have to worry about it as long as you used the same weapon. But in a fast changing world, you would probably change or upgrade your weapon way before spending years with it (and never stopping to add 2 more "ounces of metal" in it). The only drawback would be that, because of the energies used to turn
this small particle into a projectile, the weapon would over-heat. But

That would be a big breakthrough in weapons development. Imagine the reduction of the costs for the military?

Well, that was (kind of) the idea behind ME1, and that, my friend, is good science fiction.

Going back to using ammo clips, or thermal clips as an excuse (makes the same dependency), is a huge, a huge step back in terms of technology. It´s like taking our weapons now, and giving us swords. And how can you say that´s not part of the lore? It´s something that defined the use of technology of the game. Like the ships needing no refueling.

I say again, I don´t have a problem of the mechanics of ME2, which I´m loving as a game. But let´s face it: these changes make absolute no sense in terms of lore and in trying to build it to last, like the world of NWN, or others.

Modifié par Darth Suetam, 31 janvier 2010 - 02:06 .

[Schneidend]

Ammo was fine. Better than making my gun fire infinitely like in ME1.

[Schneidend]

Darth Suetam wrote...

I say again, I don´t have a problem of the mechanics of ME2, which I´m loving as a game. But let´s face it: these changes make absolute no sense in terms of lore and in trying to build it to last, like the world of NWN, or others.

It's a retcon. Now that ME2 is out, guns always required thermal clips. This is a good thing, since now Wrex's story about Aleena actually makes sense.

[Darth Garrus]

Schneidend wrote...

Darth Suetam wrote...

I say again, I don´t have a problem of the mechanics of ME2, which I´m loving as a game. But let´s face it: these changes make absolute no sense in terms of lore and in trying to build it to last, like the world of NWN, or others.

It's a retcon. Now that ME2 is out, guns always required thermal clips. This is a good thing, since now Wrex's story about Aleena actually makes sense.

I don´t think so. Actually, the codex explains that these changes were actually made after ME1, because of "some not so good explanation".

[Schneidend]

Darth Suetam wrote...


I don´t think so. Actually, the codex explains that these changes were actually made after ME1, because of "some not so good explanation".

Except that Shepard, despite having been asleep the last two years, tells Miranda the gun he picked up moments after waking up lacks a thermal clip? It's a retcon. Guns have now always worked this way.

[Darth Garrus]

Schneidend wrote...

Darth Suetam wrote...


I don´t think so. Actually, the codex explains that these changes were actually made after ME1, because of "some not so good explanation".

Except that Shepard, despite having been asleep the last two years, tells Miranda the gun he picked up moments after waking up lacks a thermal clip? It's a retcon. Guns have now always worked this way.

First of all, this just means that: either the changes were made after the fight with Sovereign, but before Shepard´s "death"; or it was a mistake. Read the codex and you´ll see that they actually created an explanation for the changing of the weapons. Changes that were made after one event (after ME1). There is no discussion over this. It would be better if it was a retcon. But no.

Well, people can still find the explanation good, or just don´t care. My point was that it is part of the lore. And actually, is a good way to NOT build a lore of such young game, or how to destroy good sci-fi writing.

- sadly, but in these forums we must try and make it clear: this in no way interfered with my liking of the game or its new mechanics. -

[sinosleep]

Darth Suetam wrote...

I´m not one of the people who are furious about the change (although, I prefered before). But I think you got that one wrong. At least from my point of view, the idea is that, centuries after our present time, and after making contact with aliens and all that, we would be able to build weapons that you could, for example, put 2 ounces of, let´s say "metal", and the technology would allow it to take just a small particle of it, and expell it in such speed that would become a proper projectile (with the use of mass effect fields and etc). That would make the ammunition virtually inifinite. At least you would not have to worry about it as long as you used the same weapon. But in a fast changing world, you would probably change or upgrade your weapon way before spending years with it (and never stopping to add 2 more "ounces of metal" in it). The only drawback would be that, because of the energies used to turn
this small particle into a projectile, the weapon would over-heat. But

That would be a big breakthrough in weapons development. Imagine the reduction of the costs for the military?

Well, that was (kind of) the idea behind ME1, and that, my friend, is good science fiction.

Going back to using ammo clips, or thermal clips as an excuse (makes the same dependency), is a huge, a huge step back in terms of technology. It´s like taking our weapons now, and giving us swords. And how can you say that´s not part of the lore? It´s something that defined the use of technology of the game. Like the ships needing no refueling.

I say again, I don´t have a problem of the mechanics of ME2, which I´m loving as a game. But let´s face it: these changes make absolute no sense in terms of lore and in trying to build it to last, like the world of NWN, or others.

I think you misunderstood my meaning. I think I've been pretty clear in making the point that thermal clips do not in any way affect the block of metal in your weapon that provides infinite ammo. That's actually been MY point, the lore as far as the metal block is untouched. While the codex is clear in that ammo is no longer an issue it doesn't touch upon heat dissipation, which is why IMO the thermal clips fit in just fine.

Since the codex isn't clear it gives Bioware wiggle room. At no point is there any indication that because they don't have to worry about thermal ammunition that they don't have to worry about over heating. That's where my KOTOR analogy came in and where I mentioned the game breaking mechanic. It's not that the weapon can fire forever due to infinite ammo, it's that the weapon can fire forever because it's immune to overheating. THAT is not part of the lore. That's a very specific gameplay situation that requires a specific weapon with specific mods installed to acomplish.

So IMO it's not at all a huge step back. Bioware can simply say, and they have BTW, that even though they had infinite ammo, waiting on overheats to cool off wound up in a net loss in rounds down field. They don't have to acknowledge mods like frictionless materials just like the KOTOR universe doesn't have to acknowledge every last crystal combination you slot a lightsaber with. Bioware can just assume a normal alliance marine only has access to the standard garbage rifle level 1 Shepard started off with and no mods to go with it. Compare that to your standard rifle in ME 2 and it doesn't look like a step back any more.

[Zigaroma]

I don't see why people have such hard times finding ammo. I liek the clips, it pushes me to use all my weapons instead of just sticking with one! Also just feels more natural to reload then just always shooting with no end (had a no overheat weapon in ME1)

[Pocketgb]

I like them, helps keep things like sniper rifles (i.e. instant kills) in check.

[sinosleep]

Romeriez Galenar wrote...

its more than a bit immersion killing to be in a situation where you SHOULD be hurrying to stop an important event but instead are crawling around on your hands and knees looking for ammo. Also for the record, I never spray ammo around wildly..there's not enough ammo in the whole game to be doing that.

Let me get this straight, teleporting hundreds of weapons, armor, mods, and god knows whatelse to your invisible nearly infinite backpack isn't immersion breaking but picking up ammo is? And again with this looking for ammo nonsense. You have to look for all manner of other things in the game, while you are looking for those, you WILL run into ammo. It really does seem to me like your being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Modifié par sinosleep, 31 janvier 2010 - 03:29 .

[WillieStyle]

Eradyn wrote...

It could be difficulty. I play on "Normal." Like you, Romeriez, I've taken to having to restrict my shots to critical body-parts and to rely more on my biotics and tactics than being able to unload lead into enemies. It's also led to me having to restrict just when I pull out my shotgun (which is far less often than the SMG).  I would think "Normal" would have more (re)spawning clips than the harder difficulties, but I guess not.

This is precisely why Bioware introduced the thermal clip change. It forces the sort of strategic thinking you describe.

Limitted ammo forces you to:
-"restrict my shots to critical body-parts" (make sure each shot counts)
-"rely on my biotics and tactics than being able to unload into enemies" (forces you to use a wider variety of abilities)
-"led to me having to restrict just when I pull out my shotgun" (forces you to use different weapons in different situations).

If I were a developer reading you post, I'd consider the ammo change a ringing success.

P.S.
I don't understand the complaints about ammo.  The only weapon I occasionally run low on is the sniper rifle.  Even with the sniper rifle I find that:
-If I don't waste sniper shots on shielded enemies
-I stick to head shots and don't miss too often
-I don't stay in the same place, but slowly advance forward picking up clips that enemies drop
-Don't waste a sniper shot on an already almost dead enemy (let my team mates finish him off)
I never run out of sniper rifle ammo either.

[idklol]

reloadings faster than overheating

[Darth Garrus]

sinosleep wrote...


I think you misunderstood my meaning. I think I've been pretty clear in making the point that thermal clips do not in any way affect the block of metal in your weapon that provides infinite ammo. That's actually been MY point, the lore as far as the metal block is untouched. While the codex is clear in that ammo is no longer an issue it doesn't touch upon heat dissipation, which is why IMO the thermal clips fit in just fine.

Since the codex isn't clear it gives Bioware wiggle room. At no point is there any indication that because they don't have to worry about thermal ammunition that they don't have to worry about over heating. That's where my KOTOR analogy came in and where I mentioned the game breaking mechanic. It's not that the weapon can fire forever due to infinite ammo, it's that the weapon can fire forever because it's immune to overheating. THAT is not part of the lore. That's a very specific gameplay situation that requires a specific weapon with specific mods installed to acomplish.

So IMO it's not at all a huge step back. Bioware can simply say, and they have BTW, that even though they had infinite ammo, waiting on overheats to cool off wound up in a net loss in rounds down field. They don't have to acknowledge mods like frictionless materials just like the KOTOR universe doesn't have to acknowledge every last crystal combination you slot a lightsaber with. Bioware can just assume a normal alliance marine only has access to the standard garbage rifle level 1 Shepard started off with and no mods to go with it. Compare that to your standard rifle in ME 2 and it doesn't look like a step back any more.

I understand (and respect! Really!) your view, but my point is exactly that changing thermal clips or ammo causes the same dependency. You can actually run out of ammo, and have to produce tons of expensive add-ons to your weapons. Do you really think that, in terms of science advancements, this is not a step back? Instead of having a weapon that, besides you having to worry about a small over-heating problem, will never let you unarmed? Because if you run out of clips you are unarmed. For me, in terms of lore, and making good sci-fi, is like saying now that you have to refuel the Enterprise every day for Cap. Kirk boldly go blablabla. It takes you out of this nice idea, and brings you back to a version of our own mundane lives. And that is not good sci-fi.

In my mind, what was great about ME, in terms of lore (developing a whole new world, timeline, aliens, and scientific advancements for it), was exactly the idea that the discovery and development of Mass Effect fields would enable all those different things, like virtually unlimited ammo (and a nice sci-fi explanation tagged along). Because of gameplay mechanics, to change the structure of this (even if you think it is a small detail about the weapons), throws the whole idea back to the stone age. Makes it a version of our world. And I think good sci-fi is the one that gives us laser guns, phasers, light sabers, and totally SELF SUSTAINABLE GUN (let´s call it this way, to better explain the point) because of mass effect fields. By the moment you have to add clips, you made it dependable of something external, and can leave the person with their pants on their hands. And that is a step back. Don´t you agree?