338 réponses à ce sujet

[Arrtis]

Just give us an option to turn infinite ammo on or off.

[sinosleep]

How are they supposed to balance difficulty when the player can turn something as fundamental as infinite ammo on and off?

[Destructo-Bot]

sinosleep wrote...

Also Destructo, what exactly are you arguing against?

I'm arguing against making changes to a relatively unique gameplay mechanic that made ME stand out a bit from other shooterish fare. Any thing wrong with the ME1 system could have been rectified with tweaks, rather than scrapping it whole.

Also more planet scanning please, I want more boring and tedious elements forced on me in this game, like collecting ammo after a fight. I'm not a soldier, I'm an interstellar garbage collector. Gotta clean the minerals off planets and sweep up the battlefield after a fight. Why not have the ammo move to your inventory after a fight like equipment in ME1. It was simple abstraction of a tedious element that was of no real entertainment value, but they scrapped that too. Another pointless change; no STORM recharge meter. Does Shepard no longer know when he's tired? Why do I have to hammer the STORM key until it works? What was so wrong about the recharge meter from ME1?

There are things I like about the game, and things that I don't. I'll voice them so hopefully I won't see these bad ideas in ME3.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 31 janvier 2010 - 06:16 .

[Hathur]

I like the new system... discourages skill-less room spraying for eternity that you could do with the guns in ME1 (toss on 2 heat sinks in ME1 and you could fire any weapon non stop.. was absurd).



Ammo conservation is important and adds tactical elements to the game... without ammo you can just aim at where an enemy is taking cover, hold down fire and hit the wall where he is till he pops up and kill him... lame.. no skill involved.



Having ammo forces you to think and AIM before you shoot.

[sinosleep]

While I don't find planet scanning to be particularly fun, at least minerals serve a purpose in ME 2. In ME 1 all you got was money you didn't need considering it was easy as pie to hit the money cap before you were even half way through the game.

And again with the picking up ammo nonsense. It falls right in front of you, it's placed right next to things you are already going to gravitate towards like wall safes and data pads. If you are having to consciously look around for it you are doing something wrong.

And for the storm recharge meter, if you've ever played any other shooters you'll see that they don't have them either. I mean after doing it a couple of times how hard is it to gauge how long its going to last? Not only that, but this storm last a significantly longer amount of time any way. If you storm for a couple of seconds, lay off then storm for a couple of seconds you can practically use it indefinitely. Using this didn't work in ME 1, you still drained the meter in no time flat.

And lastly, I HIGHLY doubt anything is going to change for ME 3. Bioware have clearly made their bed and I think they're going to lie in it. ME 2 is on pace to demolish ME 1 in sales and has gotten phenomenal reviews. At best you're going to see small tweaks.

Modifié par sinosleep, 31 janvier 2010 - 06:27 .

[jamoau]

I'm happy with ammo conservation, having to go around looking for the stuff is just a chore and I've got enough of those around the house to do.

[Destructo-Bot]

sinosleep wrote...
And lastly, I HIGHLY doubt anything is going to change for ME 3. Bioware have clearly made their bed and I think they're going to lie in it. ME 2 is on pace to demolish ME 1 in sales and has gotten phenomenal reviews. At best you're going to see small tweaks.

ME2 towers over ME1 because it stands on the shoulders of the first Mass Effect. I have grave doubts as to what its performance in reviews would have been had Mass Effect 1 not existed beforehand. Superficially ME2 is fantastic, which is what most reviewers will see as they RUSH to get a review out. But dig deeper and that shiny veneer wears off quickly. The opening act is incredible and had me enthralled for days, but then the rest of the game presented itself and I had to reevaluate my initial conclusions.

I remember how amped I was for ME2, but after playing it for awhile it seems to have lost the charm that ME1 had. With proper tweaks, the ME1 gameplay experience would have been nearly flawless. But instead of tweaking they scrapped a working system for something else entirely and for the life of me I can't figure out why.

And again to those who say that forcing a play style is a good thing, I say it isn't. The first game let you decide how you liked your combat. The second one decides for you. Which route do you think an RPG should take?

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:00 .

[sinosleep]

I disagree. About the only change that bothers me at all is the fact I can't access the map on missions or place way points on it any more. Otherwise, ME 2 is superior to ME 1 in every possible way. So much in fact that I actually "cheated" for the first time in ages this afternoon by downloading someone else ME 1 file for my next playthrough. I have a Paragon playthrough at level 37 at Virmire but I simply couldn't bring myself to finish the playthrough after playing ME 2 the last couple of days.

p.s. What do you keep going on about with ME 2 choosing for you? I seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

Modifié par sinosleep, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:03 .

[Destructo-Bot]

Maybe you should go tell the Biotic lovers that ME2 is an improvement? ME2 nerfed Biotics in a big way and the players that preferred that playstyle aren't happy about it. That's an example of ME2 deciding that a Biotic heavy playstyle shouldn't be powerful, and again contrary to the first game's lore. Also an example of removing something from the game that people were enjoying.

I want my infinite ammo back, others want their biotics back. ME2 says favoring one gun or favoring biotics is no good. That's the choice its taking away from you and what I am "going on" about. It's an RPG that's taking away player choices in gameplay mechanics.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:10 .

[RPJer001]

Darth Suetam wrote...

Davian1980 wrote...


Just wish enemies would drop them a bit more and that some weapons would hold a bit more heatsinks.

Agreed. What I think must be corrected with a patch is that you have to change from the assault riffle to the sniper (for example) to get new clips for it. If they use the same clips, why don´t you go restocking for every weapon (besides the ones that don´t use the same clips, of course) when you touch the clips? That, I think, is a mistake.

And I think the sniper riffle could use some more rounds. In this new mechanics, it became one of the most usable (and used!) weapons of the game, while on ME1 it wasn´t at all like this.

Sniper rifles with more rounds = not balanced, too easy

They are already killer weapons.  I run out of ammo on them a lot since I love using them.  It makes hunting for heat sinks rewarding.

[sinosleep]

I haven't played as a full on biotic (only one playthrough, and it's a vanguard) so I can't speak as a PC but I know that biotics are by far the best back up. I haven't found a quicker way to kill massed enemies than using mass pull with a warp on the middle guy which usually results in everyone dead and left with nothing more than a sliver. Contrary to popular belief, Hardcore has PLENTY of unshielded/unarmored enemies to go crazy on with biotics. And Christina Norman certainly implied that much of what the people complaining about biotics were talking about was flat out misinformation so I don't know how much of it I'd believe any way.

p.s. Infinite ammo isn't a choice any way, so I don't see how it falls into that category, its just something you want back and that if it had been made optional would have made difficulty balancing impossible.

Modifié par sinosleep, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:14 .

[RPJer001]

Personally, I love that ME now has an ammo function. I do not find them realistic nor do I understand how they distrbute ammo to the various guns when you have more than one out of ammo but it works for the game.



Ammo scarcity provides tension and another thing to contemplate and plan for when in fights.

[ranger614]

Jack > you.

[KidChrono]

Thermal Clips are fine... In theory. Shooters are my second favorite genre after RPGs, so I am used to managing ammo, but even with good accuracy while using a shotgun I run out of ammo every.single.firefight. And have to switch to my pistol (with... 20 extra bullets which is still not enough,)



I get 750 extra bullets for my SMG, and only 10 for my shotgun? It's very frustrating. 750 bullets for my SMG is 15 reloads... Even with the Claymore you only get 10 and with the starter shotgun you get 2! The ammo is nowhere near equivalent.



I haven't yet acquired the extra ammo upgrade, but unless it gives me at least 30 total extra shells I am still not going to be happy.

[another Riposte]

The system in Mass Effect 2 is a big leap from the first. It should remain the way it is as it encourages less-camping and more movement. If you must nerf, please don't do so in the hardest difficulties.

Shotguns could use a small ammo boost, if anything.

Modifié par another Riposte, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:28 .

[Arrtis]

sinosleep wrote...

How are they supposed to balance difficulty when the player can turn something as fundamental as infinite ammo on and off?

they arent.but more options always help.
Consider it like a game that lets you unlock cheats.
you can always make all weapons do 50% less damage maybe?

[sinosleep]

KidChrono wrote...

Thermal Clips are fine... In theory. Shooters are my second favorite genre after RPGs, so I am used to managing ammo, but even with good accuracy while using a shotgun I run out of ammo every.single.firefight. And have to switch to my pistol (with... 20 extra bullets which is still not enough,)

I get 750 extra bullets for my SMG, and only 10 for my shotgun? It's very frustrating. 750 bullets for my SMG is 15 reloads... Even with the Claymore you only get 10 and with the starter shotgun you get 2! The ammo is nowhere near equivalent.

I haven't yet acquired the extra ammo upgrade, but unless it gives me at least 30 total extra shells I am still not going to be happy.

I've got it up to 25 right now, and again I've got to ask, what difficulty are you playing on? 

[Tristan Stormrage]

@ sinosleep,
I'm sorry I was not able reply before,

1)Comparing lightsabers with projectile weapons is absurd.There is no limit for continuous usage of a lightsaber in SW,where as there is a limit on the continuous usage of weapons in ME(heat management).I was never talking about damage and you just made a straw-man argument.

2)As I have proven before,the codex is not the entirety of ME Lore.

3)Even if you think that a specific weapon(for ex: HMW X or Rosenkov series) being canon is not true(I agree this is ambiguous),the fact that weapons with auto cool existed is canon.

4)Related to 3.If it was just a gameplay issue,then it would have been easier for BW to just improve the existing system or better yet,as I and many others have mentioned,having a hybrid system, instead of completely scrapping the ME1 system.
Either way having only thermal clips makes no sense.

Modifié par Tristan Stormrage, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:34 .

[sinosleep]

1.) Good God man, seriously? Continuous use has NOTHING to do with what I was talking about. I thought the point would have been easy to grasp. Weapons can be modified through weapon mods in ME that aren't going to be taken into account in the lore. Just like Lightsabers can be modified through crystles in KOTOR that weren't all individually taken into account in the lore for ubre combinations.

2.) It's not the entirety of it but it's a large portion.

3.) I'm not saying that they didn't exist, I'm saying that they weren't necessarily what you get with you are using spectre gear and frictionless materials, as in, a weapon that NEVER overheats. I thought I made that clear later when I made the example of the level 1 piece of crap you're given as lvl 1 Shepard. Comparing that thing to a good thermal clip weapon wouldn't be a step backwards at all. That could easily be how Bioware is looking at it and fits right in with the whole ignoring ubre mods thing.

4. Bioware has flat out come out and said they tried a hybrid system and felt that what was put into the game was the best route to go. They didn't explain why, but I've got no reason to question them.

Modifié par sinosleep, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:42 .

[Wussypoo]

The new combat system in ME2 is heaps better to my mind, and thermal clips are a big part of the improved combat system. I find myself swapping between weapons when i run low on clips for 1 gun, and making snap decisions about whether its worth expanding a sniper rifle shot on individual enemies.

I also don't find biotics nerfed at all. I'm pretty early on in the game, but I find both Miranda's warp and Jacob's pull to be really valuable. I just can't spam them mindlessly- combat feels more tactical in just about every aspect.

If Bioware had to do a bit of retconning about the thermal clips to achieve this feel, its well worth it imo. I don't think I could go back to ME1 now.

[greenghost5]

Anyone with a vauge knowledge on Military Strategy and tactics will be able to tell you that the thermal clips was a huge step backwards. the system in Mass Effect worked better. And since I'm a Vanguard I can't get up close and personal too much due to only being able to fire 15 "shells" from my shotgun before I'm out.

[Arrtis]

Infinite attack is always a good idea unless it does 0 damage.

Set up an old ME1 gun to fire 10 rounds and wait 2 seconds to fire another.Would be nice.Give it to the engineer to set up and have it do less damage...i know pretty much that little drone.

[Mabari Owns High Dragon]

Dumb, thats all I have to say. Since when does an ammo requirement top infinite ammo?

[MightySword]

In general I think it's just an excuse to streamline the system and make it more "in-line" with shooter games. Not sure what is the point of that though, it's not like ME2 has multiplayers.

Wussypoo wrote...
The new combat system in ME2 is heaps better to my mind, and thermal clips are a big part of the improved combat system. I find myself swapping between weapons when i run low on clips for 1 gun, and making snap decisions about whether its worth expanding a sniper rifle shot on individual enemies.

I think the reason for that is not because of the introduction of the clip, ME2 does have a big improvement  but it comes from other area. Even without clips there are enough mechanic to encourage switching weapon for different targets (Shield, Barrier, Armor ...etc...). In fact beating the game once on hardcore as soilder I can speak with confident I rarely switch weapon due to ammo concern. The clip just feels like an unneccessary tack on thing.


As far as logic goes though, I only wish there were more thought or maybe a more reasonable explaination to the system. Despite the negative conotation I don't have problem with the clip system, but immersion is a big thing for me when it comes to games so things that I consider fabrications for story/plot convience don't really sit well with me and the in game explanation for ammo clip really feels like that. Frankly I think it's pretty lame reasoning wise. Gameplay wise - no problem. Logic wise - the Alliance's R&D department needs to be fired. In short I can see the reason why they introduced the clip system, hell I guess it's fun in a way too. I just wish they came up with a better in game explaination for it.



Other than that, just some other pet peeves like the lost of novelty, or in a certain mission the context just ... doesn't make sense at all. To avoid spoiler in that mission finding a clip is like ... buying a CD from a store before 1982:lol:

Modifié par MightySword, 31 janvier 2010 - 09:01 .

[Archilochos]

greenghost5 wrote...

Anyone with a vauge knowledge on Military Strategy and tactics will be able to tell you that the thermal clips was a huge step backwards. the system in Mass Effect worked better. And since I'm a Vanguard I can't get up close and personal too much due to only being able to fire 15 "shells" from my shotgun before I'm out.

Are you sure about that?  On the tactical level, what's the difference between pausing to reload and pausing to wait for cooldown?  I used to be irritated by the new system, but now that I've put 10+ hours into the game, I've been able to adjust.  I still think heatsink replacement as a result of rate of fire would have been better than the heatsinks-as-ammo system, but in the end, how different is it really?

The whole "unlimited" ammo thing (and according to the lore, it isn't unlimited, just extremely long lasting) is only really an advantage at the strategic level.  A firefight between two squad sized units isn't likely to last long enough for ammo supply to matter.  Combat is dangerous - one side or both will die and/or run before both run out of ammo.