338 réponses à ce sujet

[AudioJane]

MightySword wrote...

In general I think it's just an excuse to streamline the system and make it more "in-line" with shooter games. Not sure what is the point of that though, it's not like ME2 has multiplayers.

Wussypoo wrote...
The new combat system in ME2 is heaps better to my mind, and thermal clips are a big part of the improved combat system. I find myself swapping between weapons when i run low on clips for 1 gun, and making snap decisions about whether its worth expanding a sniper rifle shot on individual enemies.

I think the reason for that is not because of the introduction of the clip, ME2 does have a big improvement  but it comes from other area. Even without clips there are enough mechanic to encourage switching weapon for different targets (Shield, Barrier, Armor ...etc...). In fact beating the game once on hardcore as soilder I can speak with confident I rarely switch weapon due to ammo concern. The clip just feels like an unneccessary tack on thing.

I agree the combat is better because of level design and streamlined class ability's. It has nothing to do with thermal clips. They are simply annoying on low mag ammo count weapons. Like all the starter weapons. Bioware really needs to make more weapons.

[Wussypoo]

MightySword wrote...

Wussypoo wrote...
The new combat system in ME2 is heaps better to my mind, and thermal clips are a big part of the improved combat system. I find myself swapping between weapons when i run low on clips for 1 gun, and making snap decisions about whether its worth expanding a sniper rifle shot on individual enemies.

I think the reason for that is not because of the introduction of the clip, ME2 does have a big improvement  but it comes from other area. Even without clips there are enough mechanic to encourage switching weapon for different targets (Shield, Barrier, Armor ...etc...). In fact beating the game once on hardcore as soilder I can speak with confident I rarely switch weapon due to ammo concern. The clip just feels like an unneccessary tack on thing.

A lot of my weapon switching is due to the resistance system - smgs for shields, heavy pistol/sniper for armor etc, but i do find myself rotating weapons due to ammo concerns. I don't have to strictly run out of ammo- but it gets low enough during the longer fights that I take much more careful aim than I did in the first game. This is particularly true for the sniper rifle (10 rounds total, I hope to find an upgrade soon) and the carnifex heavy pistol (24 rounds total)

In contrast, I don't recall playing any shooter-type game as carelessly as I did ME1. The combat system in the first game was truly a joke. I'd just hold down the trigger while aiming with my spectre pistol, it didn't matter how many times I missed. 

Ammo isn't scarce in ME2. But you do have to make your shots count much more than in the first game. And thats a very, very good thing.

For whatever it's worth, I hated the overheating mechanic in ME1. It just didn't feel right to me. But that's just my personal taste.

[Tristan Stormrage]

sinosleep wrote...

1.) Good God man, seriously? Continuous use has NOTHING to do with what I was talking about. I thought the point would have been easy to grasp. Weapons can be modified through weapon mods in ME that aren't going to be taken into account in the lore. Just like Lightsabers can be modified through crystles in KOTOR that weren't all individually taken into account in the lore for ubre combinations.

2.) It's not the entirety of it but it's a large portion.

3.) I'm not saying that they didn't exist, I'm saying that they weren't necessarily what you get with you are using spectre gear and frictionless materials, as in, a weapon that NEVER overheats. I thought I made that clear later when I made the example of the level 1 piece of crap you're given as lvl 1 Shepard. Comparing that thing to a good thermal clip weapon wouldn't be a step backwards at all. That could easily be how Bioware is looking at it and fits right in with the whole ignoring ubre mods thing.

4. Bioware has flat out come out and said they tried a hybrid system and felt that what was put into the game was the best route to go. They didn't explain why, but I've got no reason to question them.

Ok,for the last freaking time,
Forget about the modifications.Damage and Continuous Usage are different aspects of weapons.Again,forget about the mods,in any sane universe its better to have a weapon that can fire infinitely(albeit in a stop & go method) than to have a weapon that can only fire for a limited time.Even the so-called "level 1 piece of crap" with a hybrid system is still way better than a great only thermal clip weapon any day.
Seriously,what is the difference between the new thermal clip system and a system with limited but universal ammo?They rendered the "tech advancement has helped make ammo a non-issue in the battlefield" part of ME useless(its stuff like this that made ME universe so unique).

Even people who like the gameplay change agree, that realistically, this system defies all logic.

And of course BW are going to say they put the best game mechanic possible.BW is an awesome(IMO,the best) Game Developer,it has been for over a decade,but there are things as a corporation that they wont do or say.

On a KINDA related note,
Upgrading your weapons is part of lore(its even in the codex).Chellick/Jax weapon mod-deal is canon.Shepard's involvement and his\\her choices is not. So mods do exist.

Modifié par Tristan Stormrage, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:03 .

[WillieStyle]

The hybrid system argument is kind of amusing. You see this argument made everytime a developer nerfs something. Those who didn't like nerf will ask, "why not put both into the game and give folks the option to choose?"



But here's the thing: nerfs aren't optional.

Bioware thought the previous system was too easy so they nerfed it. Forcing everyone to use thermal clips was the whole idea.



Sometimes taking away an option actually makes a game better. It can be hard to see this if you really liked the option, but it's true.

Taking away the "option" to spam immunity made the game better.

Taking away the "option" to fire your weapon nonstop without thinking about limitted resources made the game bettter.

Taking away the "option" to lock every enemy down (including bosses) by cycling through biotic powers made the game better.



Again, it can be hard to see this if you liked the old, overpowered issue. But good developers realize that sometimes nerfs are necessary; and there will always be some fans who are pissed at said nerfs.

[Must have name]

I hate clips.

Really, i'd have changed it this way:
-Make weapons cool down from overheating far more slowly. Don't make more advanced weapons overheat less.
-Have it so I have a finite amount of clips. Say 3 to start with and I can get up to 5 or so. Instead of discarding my clips, I alternate them. So if I use a clip, the clip that's replaced has to cool down, which takes a while. Meaning that if I fire non-stop, i'm going to have to reload, and eventually i'll hit a state where i'm out of clips. But if I manage my ammo, i'm going to be able to make my weapon last.
-If a weapon does overheat. You really have to replace the clip or use a different weapon.
-Add it also so that certain skills like Incinerate or other fire-related skills can overheat your clips back up.

Modifié par Must have name, 31 janvier 2010 - 01:54 .

[Rykef]

The overheating guns never made much sense to me, why would you have a gun with "infinite" ammo but that after just a few shots would overheat and be unusable for a period of time the system is fundamentally flawed compared to the "new" tech of swapping in and out thermal clips.

[tonnactus]

Just let shepardt autoloot clips.

[sinosleep]

Tristan Stormrage wrote...

Ok,for the last freaking time,
Forget about the modifications.Damage and Continuous Usage are different aspects of weapons.Again,forget about the mods,in any sane universe its better to have a weapon that can fire infinitely(albeit in a stop & go method) than to have a weapon that can only fire for a limited time.Even the so-called "level 1 piece of crap" with a hybrid system is still way better than a great only thermal clip weapon any day.
Seriously,what is the difference between the new thermal clip system and a system with limited but universal ammo?They rendered the "tech advancement has helped make ammo a non-issue in the battlefield" part of ME useless(its stuff like this that made ME universe so unique).

How on earth are you continuiing to miss the goddamned point? The mods are important because without them the wait for it to cool off method isn't ANY WHERE NEAR AS EFFECIENT, which is you know, kind of the entire damned point of the thermal clips. Why is that os hard for you to understand? You want to know what the difference is? Without GAMEPLAY mods like frictionless materials Bioware is given the wiggle room in the lore to say these thermal clips can be changed out in 3 seconds whereas overheating takes a minute. THAT is the difference. It's substantially quicker according to the new lore because as I have been saying all along lore VERY RARELY takes much gameplay into account, which is why I keep hammering the codex thing.

Even people who like the gameplay change agree, that realistically, this system defies all logic.

And of course BW are going to say they put the best game mechanic possible.BW is an awesome(IMO,the best) Game Developer,it has been for over a decade,but there are things as a corporation that they wont do or say.

On a KINDA related note,
Upgrading your weapons is part of lore(its even in the codex).Chellick/Jax weapon mod-deal is canon.Shepard's involvement and his\\\\\\\\her choices is not. So mods do exist.

Clearly, they decided on it for a REASON, so that point's moot and as far as defying all logic, just because SOME people in this thread think it does doesn't mean anything, it's an opinion. One I happen to disagree with. If the new lore is that it's substianlly quicker to swap out a thermal clip than it is to wait out an over heat, THAN THAT IS WHAT IT IS. And that's why it doesn't defy logic. Sure, Shepard only brings one clip per mission, that's a GAMEPLAY issue, not a lore issue. Bioware can just as easily say, as far as lore goes marines bring plenty of clips (which they would, again I WAS in the army and spent 24 months in Iraq in Afghanistan our combat load was 7 magazines with 30 bullets each and if you happened to aquire more there were certainly plently of places to put them) and your whole logic issue goes right out the window.

Modifié par sinosleep, 31 janvier 2010 - 03:24 .

[brgillespie]

Eh, the codex reasoning made perfect sense to me. As Rykef said, the unlimited ammo is great, but the fact that certain weapons were made unusable after comparatively few shots DID lower the amount of firepower heading downrange. Remember, the average Alliance grunt doesn't have Commander Shepard's tricked-out Spectre master gear that he could fire almost forever even without the modded frictionless materials. They have the dopey assault rifle you started out with.

They replaced the cooling system with limited thermal clips. It IS a tactical improvement over the old one. They can't be "Sabotaged" or anything like that. They don't critically-overheat anymore and leave you high and dry while the system takes 5 - 10 seconds to vent.

Gameplay-wise, it is a ****ing outstanding change. Combat in ME1 was pretty damn boring.

If anyone's in the military and finds in a combat MOS, you'll know that intense fire superiority trumps slow, sustained fire. The original weapons of ME1 couldn't offer rapid fire without a long cooldown period afterwards.

Modifié par brgillespie, 31 janvier 2010 - 03:45 .

[RighteousRage]

Did anyone seriously die because their weapon was overheating on ME1? Whether a soldier or engineer on insanity, this never happened to me in like 60-70 hours of playing the game on the hardest difficulty.

[EricHVela]

Thermal-clip: ******-poor explanation to maintain canon while adding ammo. I think I'm okay with the addition of ammo. I just think they could have come up with something better than "thermal clips". The first thoughts in my mind: Why not wait and let the thing cool down to regain TCs? Why not reuse TCs? Who would design a TC that's not reusable?

The probably I had with canon ME-driven guns was the power source. Why didn't they run out of power? The times I shot the assault gun likely could have driven the Normandy to the Local Cluster and back without a Mass Relay. Power would be more reasonable IMHO, but meh.

[RighteousRage]

brgillespie wrote...
If anyone's in the military and finds in a combat MOS, you'll know that intense fire superiority trumps slow, sustained fire. The original weapons of ME1 couldn't offer rapid fire without a long cooldown period afterwards.

Except it was clearly visible on normal difficulty, or even insanity with wise party planning (using proper ammo types and warp) that you could just bowl over enemies easily within a second or two without even overheating the weapon, and even if you did, the amount of time reloading or searching for ammo doesn't exactly fall under the category of "intense fire superiority" compared to say, utterly infinite clips that can fire for as long as it takes to wipe out an entire enemy squad. I suspect the weapons in ME2 can be upgraded enough to do the same thing but I haven't gotten that far yet.

[sinosleep]

Righteous you are doing the same thing Tristan was doing. You CAN NOT attempt to use gameplay to justify lore. It doesn't work that way. 90% of what you do in a game means jack nothing to the lore guys at Bioware, what THEY WROTE is what matters. The fact that you can use spectre gear with whatever mods to fire forever doesn't change the fact that according to lore overheats happen and the cool down period was too long to be efficient.

[brgillespie]

Indeed. Play level 1 Shepard with his stock, unmodded assault rifle. My Shepard in Mass Effect 2 would've ate that guy alive while he was hiding behind a rock waiting for his cooling system to vent the excess heat.



Don't consider the Spectre gear, frictionless materials, and whichever 40%+ ammunition mod when you're thinking of how thermal clips work in the Mass Effect universe.

[smudgedhorizon]

Unnecessary inconvenience that detracts from my gameplay experience.



I have to spend more time looking at my ammo counter, or looking at the floor for more clips than I can spend appreciating the environments or getting into the combat. 'm not interested in running round looking at the floor, yet it dominates the combat completely.



Also I always seem to run out at the worst possible moments, then die because of it, which is completely frustrating.



It's definitely NOT an improvement in my book.

[sinosleep]

What difficulty are you playing on, what class are you?

[brgillespie]

I've only once experienced an ammunition crisis, and that was during a boss battle. I was down to the last few rounds in my Hand Cannon.



If you're an Adept/Engineer/whatever, consider that you're supposed to be supporting the fighters, not being the main effort in the fight. Pick someone who has an assault rifle at hand (Garrus, or Zaeed, whomever) and support them. The supporting teammates are worth a **** in Mass Effect 2. You can rely on them to actually kill things on their own.

[Sidney]

Well and the limits on Hand Cannon and Shotgun thermals mean that, functionally, my Vanguard is all SMG all the time. I don't understand why there is a heat sink limit per weapon...at the very least these things should be universal so I have X heat sinks and I can use them in any weapon I want.



Toss in that no matter how you expend shots - I could shoot one guy every 5 minutes and still only get 8 shots from a heat sink or unload 1 shot per second and get the same 8 shots. at least cooldown made some sort of sense. I could regulate my overheating but I can't regulate my heat sinks.

[smudgedhorizon]

Yeh my vanguard is having the same issues Sidney.

[AMmayhem]

ME1 I just put in two Frictionless Material X's and never had to worry about overheating. Ever.



I thought the 'clip' system was going to be like the hybrid idea in the first post. Let it cool on it's own, or put in new barrel more quickly. But it's not and I am very disappointed in it. Worst part mechanic in the whole game I think. Besides the lack of a crouch...

[Zoe Dedweth]

I like the new system. Weapons "feel" more powerful and the reloading keeps combat tight. Overall I like it - besides - the lore explanation makes sense.

[sinosleep]

What difficulty are you guys playing on? I mean seriously, I play on the 2nd hardest difficulty possible and use the shotgun almost exclusively and have never run out. Not when it had 8 shots, not when it had 12 or 15 or 20. How on earth are you guys running out of ammo?

[WillieStyle]

Sometimes I feel very sorry for developers. It's so hard to ballance games for different types of players. From reading this thread, I think we're all playing different games. Like Sinosleep, I rarely run out of ammo even on my heavier weapons (sniper rifle, shot gun).



Two question to those who find ammo too scarce in game:

-How many shots does it take you to kill a typical enemy?

-Do you push forward as you fight enemies, or just stay under cover at a particular location?



Somene a few pages back was complaining about the quest where you and another sniper have to take on waves of enemies. But in that quest you literarily surrounded by ammo clips you can pick up at your leasure. I just don't get.

[WillyPete2171]

I like the thermal clip idea, but Bioware short-change it. Besides drops, which should be less frequent, there should be shops that sell and other fun and strategic ways to obtain them. There should also be more of a variety, like larger magazines and for different ammo/thermal types. The random thermal clip drop just seems weak as the only way to obtain them.. I just wish it was better implemented into the game. Maybe it would have been better to portray them as blocks of metal that get shaved off with each shot rather than them being a "thermal" or heat sick clip.

[MightySword]

sinosleep wrote...
Righteous you are doing the same thing Tristan was doing. You CAN NOT attempt to use gameplay to justify lore. It doesn't work that way. 90% of what you do in a game means jack nothing to the lore guys at Bioware, what THEY WROTE is what matters. The fact that you can use spectre gear with whatever mods to fire forever doesn't change the fact that according to lore overheats happen and the cool down period was too long to be efficient.

Uhm ... I think you said it yourself, it's all opinion so it's kinda weird for you to claim others "can not" claim on another respective. Also I disagree with what you said, even if it's lore it's still subjected to merit and it's up to individuals to conceive whether such merit exist or not. We don't say what they write doesn't matter, we're arguing what they write doesn't make sense. You seem to suggest that we should take anything the writers taken for granted without arguing back which I don't think a lot of us think that way. I always say that original authors have power to make what cannon and what's not, that's not the same as they know what best for their piece. Science Fiction's technology writing still need a believable and logical ground to convince the readers. We believe the explanation on FTL, Biotic, Mass Effect ...etc... it's just happen we find the explaination for thermal clip lacking, and yes we "CAN" argue with that on a lore level subtected to poor writing/explaination, my ground has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay, like I said earlier I'm fine gameplay wise.

Modifié par MightySword, 31 janvier 2010 - 04:50 .