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Opinions on the Thermal Clips?


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#176
Sidney

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sinosleep wrote...

What difficulty are you guys playing on? I mean seriously, I play on the 2nd hardest difficulty possible and use the shotgun almost exclusively and have never run out. Not when it had 8 shots, not when it had 12 or 15 or 20. How on earth are you guys running out of ammo?


There's always the uber-geek that plays on insanity, with their eyes closed while tied upside and tries to figure out what is hard.

I'm just not that good a shot. You get a head shot I have to crank 2 rounds into the torso to get the same effect. I'm sure I churn ammo more than some but I'm also not just spraying bullets all over the place either.

#177
Oblarg

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I think having the ability to instantly cool down your gun is nice, but along with many others, I am a proponent of a hybrid system.



What I think would work best would be to have a reasonable number of thermal clips (10 or so), with capacity upgradeable in the same way that you can upgrade medigel capacity. The weapon cooldown rates from ME1 were more or less fine. The sniper rifle and shotgun should be a bit faster, and the pistol probably should be a bit slower, but there shouldn't be any drastic change to the cooldown rates. However, the time it takes for your gun to cool if it overheats completely should be greatly increased.



This would allow players two possible play styles. You could put as many rounds downrange as you possibly can and swap out thermal clips when you overheat, or you could pace your shots. The "shoot and wait for cooldown" wouldn't be viable due to the long cooldown time if you overheat, but you'd never be truly screwed if you run out of thermal clips. Both possibly ways to play that system would have their own perks; following BioWare's "high rate of fire for shields" idea, you'd want to use your thermal clips against heavily shielded opponents and pace your shots against heavily armored opponents.



Just my two cents.

#178
sinosleep

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Mighty you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. You can say you don't like it all you want, you can come up with lore reasons why it doesn't make sense to you all you want. What you CAN'T do, is say something like my Shepard using spectre gear with top of line mods never had his weapon overload in game, so because of THAT the lore regarding thermal clips being better doesn't make any sense.



THAT is taking gameplay, and trying to apply it to the lore. THAT is what a lot of posters here have been doing

#179
sinosleep

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Sidney wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

What difficulty are you guys playing on? I mean seriously, I play on the 2nd hardest difficulty possible and use the shotgun almost exclusively and have never run out. Not when it had 8 shots, not when it had 12 or 15 or 20. How on earth are you guys running out of ammo?


There's always the uber-geek that plays on insanity, with their eyes closed while tied upside and tries to figure out what is hard.

I'm just not that good a shot. You get a head shot I have to crank 2 rounds into the torso to get the same effect. I'm sure I churn ammo more than some but I'm also not just spraying bullets all over the place either.


Sidney, it's got nothing to do with being an ubre-geek. It's a damned shotgun, it's not as if you take precision shots with the damned thing. Shooting at the torso with a shotgun is the intended method, as I've said about a million times it takes out even fully armored/shielded foes in 3 shots at absolute most, 2 shots working most of the time. It's why I find the people complaining about shotgun shells the most confusing. It's the weapon with the lowest skill requirement (as far as reticule placement) in the game. Charge, blam, blam, dead. I mean do you guys ever go out of your way to try and kill things without wasting ammo? Like if a guy is at half health and a shotgun blast could have killed him a full, but I know a warp will kill him just as well I use the warp and save the ammo. If a guy is on a ledge I use charge and knock him off and save the ammo. There are a million similar situations. Do you blow up explosive and fragile crates? Things like that hurt enemies and save you ammo.

#180
suliabryon

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Wow, I love the thermal clips. I can't believe people think they take as much time to reload as the cooldown cycle did in ME1. I finished ME1 the day before I started ME2. Cooldown seemed to take anywhere from 5-7 seconds. Changing a thermal clip in ME2 takes 1, maybe 2 seconds. To me, this was a vast, vast improvement.



I play in casual, and I also have never run out of ammo - okay, so I have had to change guns very briefly to finish a combat once or twice, but that is rare with all the ammo drops during and after a combat scene. So long as I play tactically, use my biotics and my teams biotics, and move to new positions of cover as I kill enemies, I seem to have zero problems. I actually really love the combat system in ME2 vs. ME1. I hope they keep it as is for ME3.

#181
Astalder

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Thermal clips are a huge improvement to the gameplay, much better flow, much more satisfying, and much more realistic.

#182
Sidney

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sinosleep wrote...
Sidney, it's got nothing to do with being an ubre-geek. It's a damned shotgun, it's not as if you take precision shots with the damned thing. Shooting at the torso with a shotgun is the intended method, as I've said about a million times it takes out even fully armored/shielded foes in 3 shots at absolute most, 2 shots working most of the time. It's why I find the people complaining about shotgun shells the most confusing. It's the weapon with the lowest skill requirement (as far as reticule placement) in the game. Charge, blam, blam, dead. I mean do you guys ever go out of your way to try and kill things without wasting ammo? Like if a guy is at half health and a shotgun blast could have killed him a full, but I know a warp will kill him just as well I use the warp and save the ammo. If a guy is on a ledge I use charge and knock him off and save the ammo. There are a million similar situations. Do you blow up explosive and fragile crates? Things like that hurt enemies and save you ammo.


I know how to use the shotgun, I'm not sniping people with it. The shogun is the weapon of last resort. I use it on charging Krogan, I charge up on people and blast them, I dash to near point blank and range and empy it into their chest. Hell, I don't even use it on shielded or barrier possessing foes because it doesn't do anything. All that said, if you miss a few times - you are close but they duck back into cover- in a long set piece you will run out - unless your allies are really working hard for you and mine don't.

I could be better about using Biotics but in ME2 guns do the big work (because of shields, armor and barriers) and biotics are finishers whereas in ME1 I used Biotics do do most of the dirty work and guns to polish folks off.

#183
Felix Golden

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Short answer: im not a fan of them



Mainly because in the IGN previews they promoted a hybrid system, where you could wait for cool down OR eject the heat sink for faster cool down times.

#184
ranger614

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Jack > You.

#185
finnithe

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I like the new system because it keeps me from using a single weapon for too long. On Virmire, I killed several of the Colossus' with only my Sniper Rifle. In Geth Activity, in one of the planets, I just stood a few km away and sniped at everyone in the valley as they were dropped off by the Geth Ship. Though this may seem like a good use of a sniper rifle, it doesn't really make for good gameplay. Sure, I switched out during CQC, but I find myself reminded of the aforementioned situations every time I hear a complaint of this new system.

#186
CannonO

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I wouldn't mind the thermal clips had there been a story related explanation as to why it transitioned backwards in advancement.

#187
Ayradyss

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Don't like the new clip system at all.  IMO, it's just an annoyance, not fun at all.  And the in-game lore is completely nonsensical, at this point.

#188
Devos

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I don't have a problem with an ammo system in principle but I think the balance of capacity against how much need is pretty bad. The idea was to create tension, the problem is that if there is a risk of running out ammo then the player will sometimes run out of ammo and is that really what the designers wanted to happen? I have been stuck with one enemy left, no ammo drops on the field pre placed, no random ammo drops from enemy and spent a couple of minutes whittling down their defence because I had no ammo for the right gun for the job. I was at no real danger of dying but it was boring. Combat shouldn't degenerate to busy work, scanning already has that more than covered. Ammo depletes significantly every fight but also after almost every fight fully recovers. In fairness I am playing on insanity but the ammo system is made even more of a problem than it would be just by tougher enemies. Breaking cover to grab ammo is much more hazardous.

Gears of War is clearly a major inspiration for the handling in ME2 and has a similar depletion then you get an ammo box and it's happy days again. The difference is that it's a much slower depletion over multiple encounters. Even in a big set piece you wouldn't expect ammo to be a problem if you are starting from full. It's a different dynamic because the point of the slow depletion is to force you out of your favourite load out and pick up the guns enemies are using if you don't manage your ammo well. In GoW it generates an interesting dynamic, in ME2 it just doesn't.

A relatively minor problem that could easily be fixed is having the amount of ammo you can carry limited by your total ammo, not your reserve. For example if you have a clip of one and can carry a total of ten, if you don't have a round in the rifle you can still only carry nine shots in reserve. This generates more busy work switching into every gun and checking they are loaded before collecting ammo. Not so bad in that particular case but when you can loose almost 20% of your ammo capacity on a gun by a simple "gotcha" it feels very cheap. It's especially annoying because handling ammo capacity in that way has been so ubiquitous that the ME2 way caught me out.

I think even reducing the weapon switch times and ammo powers would ease the issue some. Regularly I seem to be forced into using the wrong weapon against a defence because of the switching time, wasting ammo. With the whole dynamic of certain weapons being strong conditionally and against different defences it seems strange you are punished so much for switching.

Overall I was open to an ammo system but the mechanics of guns (though certainly not their handling) is among a bunch of gameplay elements I think were much better in ME1.

Modifié par Devos, 31 janvier 2010 - 08:42 .


#189
xxSgt_Reed_24xx

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not this AGAIN!



*facepalm*





btw, this system is a million times better than ME1's.

#190
Warskullx

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Reading through this thread makes me laugh at how incredibly bad at ME1 some people are. Seriously, you only ever needed one gun in that game. Take the pistol, turn on the pistol skill, spray non-stop killing everything in your path, no other gun compared. Especially later in the game when the cooldown and duration were equal. You could do other stuff like spray the shotgun from quite a distance away since ammo didn't matter. You didn't need to use the right gun for the right situation or even attempt to aim, you had no stress on your resources. The action was brain dead and the balance was terrible as a result.



ME2 forces you to play more tactically and balances the guns. If they put infinite ammo back in the reason to use the right gun for the right situation would go out the window. The reason you don't shotgun from halfway across the room is due to limited ammo. The gun play is actually balanced. Playing as vanguard I ended up using every gun and every skill. They are all useful, some abilities may be niche, but every single skill has something you are going to want to use it for.

#191
Destructo-Bot

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You know what I find myself doing after battle? Cycling through every weapon (slow work; mouse wheel down; reload, mouse wheel down; reload, mouse wheel down; reload, mouse wheel down; reload, reselect primary weapon from powerbar) and reloading it to maximum. Then go hunting for clips. It gets tedious and this is one of the things that should have been abstracted away. It's busywork, Shepard is a soldier... we don't need to tell him to reload all his guns after a fight EVERY single time, EVERY single battle, EVER single mission, the ENTIRE game. This is something he should do automatically.
That was also one of the nice things about the cooldown system, no busywork.

And why is Shepard the one scanning planets for minerals? Can't he delegate that to one of the crew? More busywork.

Some people like sniping, telling them that hanging back and sniping is "wrong" is trying to mandate fun. Some like the spray and pray, some like precision. Don't tell others HOW to enjoy their game! This is why we don't like the clip system. That is what an RPG is all about, moulding the game to your own tastes.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:08 .


#192
Shady41

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[quote]Janan Pacha wrote...
m and why? What changes would you make?
[/quote]

In terms of story: The Codex justification is utterly laughable. No sensible combat entity would exchange infinite firepower for a system that makes your weapons useless when you run out of clips.

In terms of Gameplay: I like the new system.

[/quote]

I agree.

#193
sinosleep

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You know what the sad thing is, I bet even if I posted a fraps vid of the ludicrous amount of ammo just lying around I bet someone would say my game is glitched or something. I just did the abandoned reaper mission. There were at least 5 ammo clips at every point of interest, lol.

#194
Destructo-Bot

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We don't CARE if you are having fun. Good for you. We aren't, and we found the old system more enjoyable. Instead of derision, how about some commiseration? There are happy middle grounds to be had. The nice thing about games is they give you options that aren't present in real life. Prefer an FPS view? HAVE IT! Prefer Over-the-Shoulder? It's YOURS!, Like Isometric? Here it is! (Examples: Dragon Age, The Witcher)

Like clips? Here are guns that use em! Don't like clips? Here are a few that cooldown! Have fun, it's your preference!

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:15 .


#195
CannotCompute

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It's more challenging this way, but adding a slow, passive, cooling system on every weapon would have been a better idea...



Also, does anyone know where I can buy ammunition? I haven't seen a shop that sells clips. I believe the manual says they can be bought...

#196
Kolaris8472

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Its very annoying that I can't run around as the Sharpshooter Shep I was in the first game due to a lack of ammo (kill 6 enemies with the Widow they'll drop 2 heatsinks; caches of 2-3 throughout a level) but being forced into using a pistol isn't all bad.



But from a lore-junky perspective, hahaha this is ridiculous.

#197
Destructo-Bot

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I too preferred sharpshooting in the original ME Kolaris! It's too bad that all the cooldown haters consider SPRAY n PRAY the only option it gave to you.

I am going to order my squaddies to carry nothing but extra clips for me. Their armor be fashioned out of clips, and if someone gets close they'll bludgeon them with a clip.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:18 .


#198
Frotality

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im all for a hybrid system. ammo was as polarizing as the rest of the game. i was always fine with smgs and ARs, but snipers, shotguns, and heavy pistols cant even last one whole fight. a very simple solution: you collect thermal clips on the battlefield. if you overheat your weapon with an overzealous triggerfinger, you have to use one or wait for cooldown. if you run out, you have make your shots count or else you'll be stuck overheating, promting said trigger happy palyers to switch to switch to a weapon with clips. make sure you dont put upgrades that allow a player to fire off infinite pistol shots and never overheat, and everyone is happy.

#199
Mr_Smitt

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What I think would work best would be to have a reasonable number of thermal clips (10 or so), with capacity upgradeable in the same way that you can upgrade medigel capacity. The weapon cooldown rates from ME1 were more or less fine. The sniper rifle and shotgun should be a bit faster, and the pistol probably should be a bit slower, but there shouldn't be any drastic change to the cooldown rates. However, the time it takes for your gun to cool if it overheats completely should be greatly increased.


Agreed. Playing on hardcore difficulty, ammo is a ****, and I think it would make more sense lore-wise and gameplay-wise to work like this.

#200
RighteousRage

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suliabryon wrote...

Wow, I love the thermal clips. I can't believe people think they take as much time to reload as the cooldown cycle did in ME1. I finished ME1 the day before I started ME2. Cooldown seemed to take anywhere from 5-7 seconds.


Really? I beat Mass Effect a few minutes before starting Mass Effect 2, and the cooldown seemed to take, oh, about 0 seconds. In the same vein reloading takes about 0 seconds in Mass Effect 2 - because I generally don't do it, only this time it's inevitable that at some point I will have to stop firing.