631 réponses à ce sujet

[Twizz089]

SethSteiner wrote...

And you forget that gamers can`t be devided into shooter gamers, rts gamers, rpg gamers, adventure gamers and so on. I play shooters, rts, everything but sport. Many of the Dragon Age players now play Mass Effect. Sexuality is no issue and was no issue, never. Dragon Age proofed it apart from movies, music and the porn industry itself. I don`t know why BioWare did that but they definitly didn`t play safe because there is no safety in ignoring homosexuality. Sales aren`t hurt through it.

Of course gamers can be divided into different types of games, as a shooter fan most likely will not like the action of Dragon Age, but would feel right at home with Mass Effect.  Mass Effect targets different gamers then Dragon Age did.  (Mass Effect ad aired during the NFC championship game, a "manly" sport) Mass Effect is targeting not only RPG fans, but a group of "manly" people that my not be comfortable with gay relationships. 

At the end of the day, Male on Male relationships may not hurt sells, but at if you were Bioware, would you risk it or play it safe.  This isnt Dragon Age, its targting a larger group of people then Dragon Age targeted.  While Dragon Age was for the true RPG fan, Mass Effect has somthing for everyone, and everyone is not ok with gay relationships.

[Lightice_av]

This is not the case. There have been periods in our past when morality was much more liberal than it is now. A couple hundred years in the future does not guaruntee that morality has changed one way or the other.

But the novels have made it clear that there are gay people, and that their orientation is not considered important by any characters, or any official limitations. The chances are that in the ME universe people are a lot more concerned about interspecies relationships than homosexuality.

[netminder17]

I really don't see what the big deal is. We'll never know why Bioware didn't put this option in their game, but opposing just the idea that it might be in the game is pure homophobia. It wouldn't be like they were forcing it on anybody, it would just be another option. Wanting to hide homosexuality is childish, like hiding under the covers at night. It doesn't really effect my gameplay experience, but I could see how a homosexual person would want that option.

[Schurge]

Bah, deleting the post, and I'll thank you to delete your responces, and I'll just leave it at that.

(And I have never played DA, Fable, or any recent Sims games).

[SethSteiner]

Twizz089 wrote...

SethSteiner wrote...

And you forget that gamers can`t be devided into shooter gamers, rts gamers, rpg gamers, adventure gamers and so on. I play shooters, rts, everything but sport. Many of the Dragon Age players now play Mass Effect. Sexuality is no issue and was no issue, never. Dragon Age proofed it apart from movies, music and the porn industry itself. I don`t know why BioWare did that but they definitly didn`t play safe because there is no safety in ignoring homosexuality. Sales aren`t hurt through it.

Of course gamers can be divided into different types of games, as a shooter fan most likely will not like the action of Dragon Age, but would feel right at home with Mass Effect.  Mass Effect targets different gamers then Dragon Age did.  (Mass Effect ad aired during the NFC championship game, a "manly" sport) Mass Effect is targeting not only RPG fans, but a group of "manly" people that my not be comfortable with gay relationships. 

At the end of the day, Male on Male relationships may not hurt sells, but at if you were Bioware, would you risk it or play it safe.  This isnt Dragon Age, its targting a larger group of people then Dragon Age targeted.  While Dragon Age was for the true RPG fan, Mass Effect has somthing for everyone, and everyone is not ok with gay relationships.

How could gamers if so many are playing so many different games? Sorry, no you can`t devide them so easily. It`s the same with movies or music. Yes there are types who just like 1 thing but there are so much more who buy everything here and there. People who bought Dragon Age now purchase Mass Effect, what are they? Is one half of them an Orc and the other a Borg?

If I would be BioWare I would have the same oppinion: There is no risk!
And just lol to your whole targeting thingy.

[Lightice_av]

Bah, deleting the post, and I'll thank you to delete your responces, and I'll just leave it at that.

I'm afraid I only delete doubleposts. Perhaps your example will prevent some other ignorant person from doing the same mistake, though seeing how many times it has been repeated, this may be a vain hope. It's best to remember that what has been said can't be unsaid online; perhaps this will also remind people to think before they post...though that too may be a vain hope.

[Dr. Impossible]

What's this? Homosexuals/homosexual apologists aggressively pushing homosexuality on everyone else? Well I never!

AntiChri5 wrote...

Far too many hipocritical morons think Lesbian=hawt Gay=icky

Hey, guess what: heterosexual men are sexually attracted to women, but not to men. Amazing.

[Twizz089]

SethSteiner wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...

SethSteiner wrote...

And you forget that gamers can`t be devided into shooter gamers, rts gamers, rpg gamers, adventure gamers and so on. I play shooters, rts, everything but sport. Many of the Dragon Age players now play Mass Effect. Sexuality is no issue and was no issue, never. Dragon Age proofed it apart from movies, music and the porn industry itself. I don`t know why BioWare did that but they definitly didn`t play safe because there is no safety in ignoring homosexuality. Sales aren`t hurt through it.

Of course gamers can be divided into different types of games, as a shooter fan most likely will not like the action of Dragon Age, but would feel right at home with Mass Effect.  Mass Effect targets different gamers then Dragon Age did.  (Mass Effect ad aired during the NFC championship game, a "manly" sport) Mass Effect is targeting not only RPG fans, but a group of "manly" people that my not be comfortable with gay relationships. 

At the end of the day, Male on Male relationships may not hurt sells, but at if you were Bioware, would you risk it or play it safe.  This isnt Dragon Age, its targting a larger group of people then Dragon Age targeted.  While Dragon Age was for the true RPG fan, Mass Effect has somthing for everyone, and everyone is not ok with gay relationships.

How could gamers if so many are playing so many different games? Sorry, no you can`t devide them so easily. It`s the same with movies or music. Yes there are types who just like 1 thing but there are so much more who buy everything here and there. People who bought Dragon Age now purchase Mass Effect, what are they? Is one half of them an Orc and the other a Borg?

If I would be BioWare I would have the same oppinion: There is no risk!
And just lol to your whole targeting thingy.

The fact that you dont understand a simple concept of how  marketing targets groups of people makes me laugh.  Most people dont go out and buy games just to by games, Most shooter  or Action fans will not pick up a true RPG game.  Games are just like movies, in the same way that movies target different people, video games target different people.  Mass Effect is targeting a much larger group of people then targeted by Dragon Age, therefore their is a big risk including gay relationships in this game

[Erakleitos]

They called it "mass" effect for a reason

[Twizz089]

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

I love how shooter fans don't want to be stereotyped and then proceed to stereotype themselves. >_>

Where did a shooter fan sterotype themselves?  And sterotyping is a part of life, every business who wants to make money has to sterotype.

[Schurge]

Lightice_av wrote...

Bah, deleting the post, and I'll thank you to delete your responces, and I'll just leave it at that.

I'm afraid I only delete doubleposts. Perhaps your example will prevent some other ignorant person from doing the same mistake, though seeing how many times it has been repeated, this may be a vain hope. It's best to remember that what has been said can't be unsaid online; perhaps this will also remind people to think before they post...though that too may be a vain hope.

I am fine with that and can respect that. I don't retract any of what I said I just didn't want to deal with the responces.

I don't appreciate you responding to my PM in the actual thread and you insulting me when I didn't insult you in my PM... or the fact that you act superior when your responce in the actual thread was derogotory (sp?), elitist, and heterophobic.

This is all I said:

"I deleted my post as it had the opposite effect of what was intended, I would appreciate it if you deleted your responce. And I will just leave this message at that, if you want to discuss my post just send me a tell."

That may very well make me look worse than intended... but I am not deleting this post because I am 100% it will warrant its intended responce.

Modifié par Schurge, 01 février 2010 - 03:48 .

[Lightice_av]

The fact that you dont understand a simple concept of how marketing targets groups of people makes me laugh. Most people dont go out and buy games just to by games, Most shooter or Action fans will not pick up a true RPG game.

Except that these categories overlap greatly. I buy both shooters and RPGs, and I like that Mass Effect is both. Bioware is a company that has been willing and capable of taking risks in the past, and has come ahead with every controversy; if there had been a big "gay scandal" it would have probably boosted the sales, if anything. All publicity is good publicity, after all. It does seems that the time of such scandals is past in the mainstream media, however, at least as far as video games are concerned.

The chances are that the average shooter fan as you describe them barely pays attention to the romance options, except maybe for some shallow eyecandy, so it's also quite unlikely that they would even accidentally stumble on the gay option - some people failed to notice that Dragon Age had one, despite of it being as subtle as ton of bricks. So no, it's highly unlikely that this was the reason for the option's absence.

I don't appreciate you responding to my PM in the actual thread and you insulting me when I didn't insult you in my PM... or the fact that you act superior when your responce in the actual thread was derogotory (sp?), elitist, and heterophobic.

I responded to a post that I saw in the actual thread itself. I only now noticed that you had sent a PM at all. Either the forum mechanics make me see the PM as a thread-post, or you also made the post in the thread itself.

But heterophobic? Really? Let me tell you for the umpteenth time that I am a heterosexual man myself, not here for myself, but because I sincerely sympathise with those who wanted a gay option, and by now even more because how annoyed I am at the largely shallow, idiotic hate-base who see fit to flock a thread not intended for that. They're what keeps me here, because I have no intention of being intimidated. And there's nothing elitistic about wishing a one option for a minority, when the majority already has three.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 01 février 2010 - 03:54 .

[Captain Jazz]

Twizz089 wrote...

Of course gamers can be divided into different types of games, as a shooter fan most likely will not like the action of Dragon Age, but would feel right at home with Mass Effect.  Mass Effect targets different gamers then Dragon Age did.  (Mass Effect ad aired during the NFC championship game, a "manly" sport) Mass Effect is targeting not only RPG fans, but a group of "manly" people that my not be comfortable with gay relationships. 

At the end of the day, Male on Male relationships may not hurt sells, but at if you were Bioware, would you risk it or play it safe.  This isnt Dragon Age, its targting a larger group of people then Dragon Age targeted.  While Dragon Age was for the true RPG fan, Mass Effect has somthing for everyone, and everyone is not ok with gay relationships.

Maybe some gamers are only interested in CoD, NFS or NWN-style games with no intersection (huh... lotsa three word titles out there thinking about it... wonder why that is?) but I suspect the majority of us are quite happy to play any and all (or at least many and most) games with consideration only for whether it entertains, rather than whether it is a specific genre.

I would take a moment to suggest that people who can be freaked out by people doing things that don't have to effect them in any way are not manly in the least, for real men have no fear of those things which cannot harm them (except for spiders which are ****ING EVIL LITTLE BASTARDS), but I fear that would only cause problems, so I'll won't say it.
(But I won't say it in such a way that it is said quite clearly for any who wish to read... well... the lines.)

If I were Bioware, I would risk it - Mass Effect has something for everyone, and everyone includes people who are in or who are ok with gay relationships.
I do understand pragmatism of course, but sometimes it is easy to confuse it for cowardice.

[GRRiMREEAPeR]

                        Gay Shep dosent work. Commander Sherpard is a Straight character period. Just like Miranda and Jacob and Kaidan are. Some characters in mass effect go both ways like Liara, but some don't under any circumstances. It would change Jacob immensely if he all of a sudden realized he liked men as soon as he got around Shepard. It wouldn't make sense. The same goes for Shepard. Bioware created him as a straight man. That's set in concrete, just like Miranda's sexuality and Jacobs, and Capt Anderson's, I could go on. So no, Shepard should stay the way he is.

                      Shepard's job is tackling problems on a galaxy wide scale. Bioware's job is creating great games that sell well. Neither of them are here to tackle the problem of homosexuality trying to assimilate itself into mainstream culture, just like they aren't here fix global warming, or white/black relations, or abortion issues... let them make games, they are doing a phenomenal job.

Modifié par GRRiMREEAPeR, 01 février 2010 - 04:01 .

[Lightice_av]

Gay Shep dosent work. Commander Sherpard is a Straight character period

Stop making stupid empty argument that has been repeated ad infinitum. Commander Shepard is you. You alone decide who or what s/he is. S/he is a human and a badass. Those are the only official limitations to his/her personality

[Twizz089]

Lightice_av wrote...

The fact that you dont understand a simple concept of how marketing targets groups of people makes me laugh. Most people dont go out and buy games just to by games, Most shooter or Action fans will not pick up a true RPG game.

Except that these categories overlap greatly. I buy both shooters and RPGs, and I like that Mass Effect is both. Bioware is a company that has been willing and capable of taking risks in the past, and has come ahead with every controversy; if there had been a big "gay scandal" it would have probably boosted the sales, if anything. All publicity is good publicity, after all. It does seems that the time of such scandals is past in the mainstream media, however, at least as far as video games are concerned.

The chances are that the average shooter fan as you describe them barely pays attention to the romance options, except maybe for some shallow eyecandy, so it's also quite unlikely that they would even accidentally stumble on the gay option - some people failed to notice that Dragon Age had one, despite of it being as subtle as ton of bricks. So no, it's highly unlikely that this was the reason for the option's absence.

These categories can overlap, but not for everyone. 

In your post you paint a picture of how the average shooter fan is stupid.  "barely pays attention to romance options... its also quite unlikely that they would even accidentally stumble on gay option"  And a pig "maybe for some shallow eyecandy"  As if you are better then them and that your interest of gay relationships in games out weigh theirs interest of having a game without it.  Like I said before, Mass Effect is targeting a larger group of people then targeted by Dragon Age, call them shooters, call them action fans or call them immature pigs.  It doesnt matter what label you give them.  Mass Effect is bigger then Dragon Age and has more media attention then Dragon Age could ever hope to have, therefore they have to make sure the game is ok with this wide audience that is mostly at least double the Dragon Age audience.  Male on Male relationships is clearly not a risk they are willing to take.

[GRRiMREEAPeR]

Lightice_av wrote...

Gay Shep dosent work. Commander Sherpard is a Straight character period

Stop making stupid empty argument that has been repeated ad infinitum. Commander Shepard is you. You alone decide who or what s/he is. S/he is a human and a badass. Those are the only official limitations to his/her personality

did you even read my comment, or did u stop after the first sentence? you destroy your own credibility

[LolaRuns]

Here's my take on some of the more popular arguments passed around here:

I do think it would make sense to have a gay option. I do not think that it would make that much difference. I do think it would give the game an air of more freedom. Kinda, I never played the cat-people or the lizard-people in Morrowind, but I still thought it was neat that the option was there. Had I played more than one playthrough I might have played them too.

On the other hand, well they did an f/f option, so if it's ok to focus on that target audience why not address another is flawed. Just because the f/f option can be used by lesbians doesn't mean that it was ever written for them. IMO it was created for male fans who like to look at a female avatar while running around and who have no interest in bedding the men because they are straight men themselves. They are the target audience, you are the lucky by product. There is no "well if the are willing to appeal to the the lesbian audience, then..." because they didn't particularly (intentionally) appeal to the lesbian audience in the first place.

Yes, it does constrict the freedom of YOU are Sheppard, but I disagree with the basic concept of that. Yes, I know that "They" have said that that is the case. I just happen to think that "They" are big fat liars/marketers in that regard. IMO ME2 in particular is a lot more like "Uncharted 2 with more options".

If you look at ME2 vs. DA they are two different ideas, imo. Yes, both exist to tell a story. But ME2 is the story of a person (Shep). While imo DA is more the story of a concept (The Warden/The Chosen One/The Nerevarine/The Vault Dweller/etc). I tend to side with the people who would even argue that femShep is really just a skinned person of actualShep. IMO that's the story they want to tell. And since it is their story they have the right to make it as straight or girl-loving as they want to.

On the other hand, if it was really their intention to make a free world (which after all includes some inter-species sex) and they intentionally cut that version out, well that's lame and cheesy. But then again I tend to be on the side of thinking that that was just a side goal to telling the story they want to tell (which you can witness/experience/nudge rather than control) and will ultimately have to be subservient to the story they envision. IMO you can't plot a trilogy if you don't have a very particular idea of the story.

As for the argument of effort, well here I tend to think it wouldn't be that much effort. Of course some people who bring this argument sound like the only way it would be doable if you rerecorded the entire game's dialog only this time with a lisp (wait does that mean you have to recorde the entire dialog with a "black voice" if you skin your Shep black?). IMO the entire story and dialog could stay unaffected and just throw in a single "Well, one time in summercamp...." line for all the characters before you do the fade to black, if what they were after was freedom or a free-loving universe.

As for the argument that it's dumb to assume that just because it's the future it has to be gay accepting, when there could also be a conservate future, well yes, but while there could be conservate universes, does this really strike you as one? With the focus on rogues, random characters openly making lesbionic passes at femshep or admitting that they are into anything (Kelly). I mean if it was let's say WH40K I wouldn't expect any openly permitted homosexuality there (or there I would even buy gene meddling that eradicated it since it is a religion based universe).

[Selvec_Darkon]

None of the males in the crew are gay. Thats that. Personality of these characters simply show's that none of them are probably going to be gay. Let's see here.  Jospeh (think thats his name, never paid attention) he had a thing with Miranda, so no gay. Garrus is not gay, I don't think the concept of homosexuality even exists in Taurin culture, same goes for Krogan culture. Salarian isn't gay, has nephew, again may not even exist in Salarian culture.

It's actually all in game stuff. Even get told so. Humans at the only race which are true individuals, completely random. Sexuality is something that is VERY much an individual thing. Asari don't think of sex like sex, they think off it as a gathering of genetic data, it's pleasureable, but they are fully aware of what it means to them. Krogans think of sex as breeding, thats it. Breed to survive. Turians, well actually you don't get told much about Turian culture in ME so far, it's kinda odd given you've had a turian on your ship for two games now. Salarian, they live 40 years, and have arranged contracts for genetic dispersing or something, not the same.  Those are four main races you meet and know the cultures about. Quarians may be gay, but you've only ever had a female one on your team *shrugs*.

Edit: I don't see why a game should have to have a gay option, don't see why it should have any option.  The idea of gay rights was to treat everyone the same, give everyone the same options, same chances, and be treated the same as anyone else. Regardless of sexual orientation. It's not about  forcing there to be a gay option for every sexual encounter in entertainment, thats not how it works, as not everyone has an option to there likining. Army of Two is a good example of this. I would have preferred a female option for the main character to slap the other characters behind, but dammit EA didn't give it to me and now I have to deal with the adronginous butt slappings of the two best bro's in masks.

Modifié par Selvec_Darkon, 01 février 2010 - 04:06 .

[Lmaoboat]

Straights and lesbians are already subjected to Bioware's painfully cheesy sex scenes, the gays needn't suffer also.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Progress cannot happen without risk.

[TheME2renegade]

/facepalm. Gay ppl gotta complain about everything.