631 réponses à ce sujet

[LolaRuns]

Making decent amounts of money doesn't mean being able to splurge.

10 lines out of 1000 is not a splurge. Would it be too much to NOW hire voice actors only to implement those options, yeah, I agree too expensive. But if you are paying these people for 1000 lines anyway they will hardly ask for that much more.

And you wouldn't have to redo all the lines. You would still talk to the companions about the same problems but at the end you could say "How about we go to bed" and they reply with "well sure!" (well, not technically that, but you catch the drift. You could still get to know them the friendship way, you can just cap it off differently, yes we know it wouldn't be that easy, you'd probably add some lines with flirty undertones, but generally I don't think that much of the game would be affected; again it's not like the romances are that deep anyway at the current time).

I thnk the point is what you're after. Are you, as a vision for the game, after story, then you might decide it doesn't fit. But if you are after freedom, yeah, then I think you should do it. The price is still comparatively small.

Modifié par LolaRuns, 01 février 2010 - 07:40 .

[Lightice_av]

10 lines? Considering that most languages (there isn't only english) are gender sensitive, most is not all of the romance lines for the bisexual character would have to be revoiced.

Most lines on any romanceable character aren't about the romance. They already have to do double voices for both genders.

Normally games that make a lot of money also have a big budget, and investors expect revenue from that budget.

Even assuming that only 1% of the fans would care about the option, they would already have made over million dollars to Bioware, and in practice the percentage is much higher; the people playing the opposite sex along with some gay people lured in the game specifically by the option (for example through a reference in a gay-friendly publication) also need to be included. There's plenty of money in the minorities.

[Ninja Mage]

@Abraieal CG


I can't take this guy seriously, he must like to hear himself talk. I guess Italians don't deserve to have a game voiced in thier native language? Please jump off a cliff

Modifié par Ninja Mage, 01 février 2010 - 07:30 .

[Medhia Nox]

Yeah - because the fish tank, space hamster, alien porn mags, and model ships were such a valuable use of development time.



Also - entire lines of voice don't have to be redone to replace a pronoun.



And - it was already done with Kaiden in ME 1 - only, it wasn't added for some reason.



---



The point is moot - you're arguing from a place of calcified tradition. I'm not the one who needs my horizons broadened.



You use baiting words like envious. I'm not envious - I'm making a decision about where to use my money. And I'm not paying for you to have more content than me.

[Drakron]

Medhia Nox wrote...
- Fallout 3 I connected with the original character ((SPOILER)) - meaning the one who sacrifices himself to save the Capital Wasteland. After the change - I found it to be trite and pandering to "masses".

... OK,  you have a Supermuntant that is immune to radiation and he starts talking about Destiny and stuff as you could have a Ghoul that also refuses go in despite the fact he also immune to the stuff as well.

Hell never mind the near infinite suffly of Rad-Away or whatever the Coronel used to survive ... that part is simply SHOVED DOWN THE PLAYER despite the very logical options of turning the damn thing on and survive.

Then again I never connected with Fallout 3 character since his obession with FATHER! kinda comes across as incest at best.

[Lightice_av]

And - it was already done with Kaiden in ME 1 - only, it wasn't added for some reason.

Almost certainly because it was also done for Ashley, and it would have made both of the human teammates into bisexuals, and the marketing department probably wasn't quite ready for that bold a statement. Shouldn't be nearly as much of an issue when you have 10-12 teammates, however.

[sw33ts]

Why should the field be "evened"? The audience isn't even. I'd dare say that people interested in gay romances in games aren't even near to 1/3 of the total.
Also, to "even the playing field" would mean making it even between everyone, not just between straight and gay. Why would gay people be so much important compared to any other minority to require "evening" that other minorities don't get?

"Why should it be even?  The audience isn't even." That's such a copout.  Why should women get to vote?  There's more men.  Why should black people get to vote?  There's more whites.  I can continue with your little copout answer but I'm sure you get the idea.

"Why would gay people be so much important compared to any other minority to require "evening" that other minorities don't get?"
Who's saying that they view themselves above others all they're asking is for a romance option they can enjoy just like straight people and lesbians have an option they can enjoy.  Straight women and men get the OPTION to persue a romance with a male female.  Lesbian women get the OPTION to persue a romance with Liara or Kelly.  Gay men...get an option to??? nothing.  That is what they don't get.  They don't get an option they can enjoy.

[Abriael_CG]

LolaRuns wrote...
10 lines out of 1000 is not a splurge. Would it be too much to NOW hire voice actors only to implement those options, yeah, I agree too expensive. But if you are paying these people for 1000 lines anyway they will hardly ask for that much more.

Voice actors aren't paid just by the line. They also have a set fee just for their presence on top of the per-line fee.

And you wouldn't have to redo all the lines. You would still talk to
the companions about the same problems but at the end you could say
"How about we go to bed" and they reply with "well sure!" (well, not
technically that, but you catch the drift.

Lol, yay for quality. So you'd rather have it completely half-assed than not have it at all. Well, most developers don't really think like that, and won't add sub-par and low quality parts to their games because you wanna see some gay dry humping.

I thnk the point is what you're after. Are you, as a vision for the game, after story, then you might decide it doesn't fit. But if you are after freedom, yeah, then I think you should do it. The price is still comparatively small.

Then you're talking to the wrong developer. Bioware has always been heavily story driven. If you want "freedom" (and absolutely abysmal stories) Bethesda would be your choice.

Ninja Mage wrote...
@Abraieal CG
I can't take
this guy seriously, he must like to hear himself talk. I guess Italians
don't deserve to have a game voiced in thier native language? Please
jump off a cliff

As a matter of fact I AM italian, genius. The italian voice acting is a technical trainwreck and results in a lessened game experience for everyone forced to hear it.

Medhia Nox wrote...
Yeah - because the fish tank, space hamster, alien porn mags, and model ships were such a valuable use of development time.

You're talking about things of a completely different development scope. Those things are negligible, compared to adding a whole new romance option.
Also, those things are developed in-house, so modelers and codes can work on those on dead time. Voice acting is done externally, and voice actors will go to grab a coffee and chat outside on dead times.

Also - entire lines of voice don't have to be redone to replace a pronoun.

Ah, sweet naiveté. Voice acting isn't that simple.
If you voice a line, and then  voice a pronoun separately, no matter how good of an actor you are, you won't be able to reproduce exactly the same tone and intention as the original line. Hence, it will come out mismatched unless you try over and over until you nail it.
Voice acting isn't an exact science where you just press a button and get the desired result. The whole process of trying the pronoun over and over to match the line decently would take a lot of time, and in voice acting time is money just as much as the number of lines.

sw33ts wrote...
"Why should it be even?  The audience isn't
even." That's such a copout.  Why should women get to vote?  There's
more men.  Why should black people get to vote?  There's more whites. 
I can continue with your little copout answer but I'm sure you get the
idea.

This comparison is all over the place lol.
The right to vote (that doesn't involve additional expenses to anyone, or doesn't deprieve anyone else of anything, mind you) is absolutely not comparable to demanding a company making a GAME to spend more or to deprieve the majority of an option to give it to you.
Voting is a right. Playing a gay character in a videogame is not.

Who's
saying that they view themselves above others all they're asking is for
a romance option they can enjoy just like straight people and lesbians
have an option they can enjoy.  Straight women and men get the OPTION
to persue a romance with a male female.  Lesbian women get the OPTION
to persue a romance with Liara or Kelly.  Gay men...get an option to???
nothing.  That is what they don't get.  They don't get an option they
can enjoy.

If they can't enjoy the game because they can't play gay, honestly it's their problem, their perception of gaming is absolutely shallow and maybe they should consider broadening their horizons.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 01 février 2010 - 08:07 .

[Vanth]

sw33ts wrote...

"Why should it be even?  The audience isn't even." That's such a copout.  Why should women get to vote?  There's more men.  Why should black people get to vote?  There's more whites.  I can continue with your little copout answer but I'm sure you get the idea.

I'm sorry, but that argument is just dumb. Women do get to vote and get (collectively) a number of votes proportionate to the number of women in society. Black people also get the number of votes proportionate to their population.

In some ways, capitalism creates a similar system - we 'vote' by buying a product. If the number of gay people buying games were large, I am sure you would see games catering for them. But they don't, so they don't get games specially made for them because it wouldn't make economic sense.

[Lightice_av]

You already made yourself clear Abriael_CG: you're a member of a minority yourself (a non-English speaker), and feel that you are in a competition with other minorities for resources in this game. Doesn't change the fact that the minorities can pay their way just as well as the majorities; as I've already explained, the number of gamers who would enjoy a gay option is already high enough to justify the addition of the option to the next Mass Effect, or even a DLC, though that if far more unlikely.

You've said your piece, you haven't added one iota after your first post. It's time for you to step aside.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 01 février 2010 - 08:07 .

[Valdez_ua]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Yeah - because the fish tank, space hamster, alien porn mags, and model ships were such a valuable use of development time.

Space Hamster is 100 times more important then your gay romance. You talking blasphemy! You'll get your eyes eaten!

[dinmeister]

damn this topic is really Gay, get it gay because it is about gay romansec between characters ... yeah I'm pathetic.

But I agree with the fact some games does not need to have gay romances I really like the game without it so I wouldn't change it.

[sw33ts]

"This comparison is all over the place lol.

The right to vote (that doesn't involve additional expenses to anyone, or doesn't deprieve anyone else of anything, mind you) is absolutely not comparable to demanding a company making a GAME to spend more or to deprieve the majority of an option to give it to you.

Voting is a right. Playing a gay character in a videogame is not. "



I stated earlier that it wouldn't even cost more. If simple modders can just take Alister's lines and make a m/m relationship in DOA or take Morrigan's voice and make it a f/f I'm sure bioware could do that just as easily. Just like when in ME1 if you romance Liara as a female or a male IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME. It's the exact same line except they say especially since most of the time Liara just calls you Shepard/Commander. Shepard I love you. Shepard I feel we have something. Never I love her or I love him. It's i love shepard. That's hardly hard or expensive to do.



"If they can't enjoy the game because they can't play gay, honestly it's their problem, their perception of gaming is absolutely shallow and maybe they should consider broadening their horizons."



I don't think you get what I'm saying at all. The thing is they allow every kind of relationship even alien/human EXCEPT m/m. Why would you do that as a company? I said it makes the player feel like the Shepard they're playing is more THIER'S. Is that not what an RPG is? To play whomever you're playing as as if it were you in the game? And when I said enjoy I'm speaking on the romance aspect. Everyone gets a romance option they can enjoy except gay males. Not very fair if you ask me.



It seems like you're saying to me just because they're in the minority they should be ignored. And your reasoning seems to be to tell them to suck it up? What's with that logic? Will it affect you if they get their m/m relationship?

[Abriael_CG]

Lightice_av wrote...

You already made yourself clear Abriael_CG: you're a member of a minority yourself (a non-English speaker), and feel that you are in a competition with other minorities for resources in this game.

Actually (if you took your time to hone your understanding skills you would have notice) I would have been absolutely pleased of giving up the resources they spent on the italian voice acting, given that they did an abysmal job and the english one is quite a lot more enjoyable.

Doesn't change the fact that the minorities can pay their way just as well as the majorities; as I've already explained, the number of gamers who would enjoy a gay option is already high enough to justify the addition of the option to the next Mass Effect, or even a DLC, though that if far more unlikely. 

And given that you're here whining, Bioware already has your money.
The number of people that won't buy Mass Effect 3 if there isn't a gay option are a minority inside a minority (becase my experience and hopes leads me to believe that the vast majority of homosexuals aren't as whiny as the ones I read here, and don't think that the gaming world should revolve around their sexual preferences). I personally doubt that it's any warranted to dedicate more resources to such a small and narrow minded niche-inside-a-niche.

[Yeled]

Honestly I'm not sure why Bioware limits your choices at all. If they make a character romancable, why not let anyone romance them regardless of gender? It doesn't cost much more (most of the dialogue would be the same) and it would make everyone happy. Its simply not true to say that providing options makes characters bisexual. Miranda may be straight in one game, bisexual in another, and a lesbian in a third depending on player choices. The default can change to appeal to player.



I wonder if EA had any role to play in this. If I remember correctly there has been a gay option in every bioware game since KOTOR. Then EA buys the company and suddenly that option is gone. That strikes me as more than a coincidence.

[sw33ts]

Jethart wrote...

sw33ts wrote...

"Why should it be even?  The audience isn't even." That's such a copout.  Why should women get to vote?  There's more men.  Why should black people get to vote?  There's more whites.  I can continue with your little copout answer but I'm sure you get the idea.

I'm sorry, but that argument is just dumb. Women do get to vote and get (collectively) a number of votes proportionate to the number of women in society. Black people also get the number of votes proportionate to their population.

In some ways, capitalism creates a similar system - we 'vote' by buying a product. If the number of gay people buying games were large, I am sure you would see games catering for them. But they don't, so they don't get games specially made for them because it wouldn't make economic sense.

My argument is in fact not "dumb."  He stated that they don't get a say because they are a minority.  Women and blacks are also a minorty so they shouldnt' get the benefits/choices of the majority according to his logic.  Yes, I chose an intresting metaphor, but it's far from "dumb."

[Endurance_117]

Hey I want to romance EDI, They should totally put it in, amirite guys?

It's a GAME. Every game has limitations. IT's BIOWARES game not ours

Modifié par Endurance_117, 01 février 2010 - 08:16 .

[MassFrost]

Yeled wrote...

Honestly I'm not sure why Bioware limits your choices at all. If they make a character romancable, why not let anyone romance them regardless of gender? It doesn't cost much more (most of the dialogue would be the same) and it would make everyone happy. Its simply not true to say that providing options makes characters bisexual. Miranda may be straight in one game, bisexual in another, and a lesbian in a third depending on player choices. The default can change to appeal to player.

Not to say I care either way, but wouldn't that just go against the whole argument that being gay isn't a choice?

[Lightice_av]

Actually (if you took your time to hone your understanding skills you would have notice) I would have been absolutely pleased of giving up the resources they spent on the italian voice acting, given that they did an abysmal job and the english one is quite a lot more enjoyable.

If I take what you say at face value, you're clearly afraid of losing something. A random encounter? A piece of the background dialogue? Doesn't exactly matter.

I personally doubt that it's any warranted to dedicate more resources to such a small and narrow minded niche-inside-a-niche.

The purpose for this "whining" is none other than to bring attention to the fact that there are plenty of people who would be happy to have the option. There was no "whining" last time, and hence no option, while the Tali and Garrus fans were vocal all the way, and were given what they wanted. You're contributing, by the way. The only thing that really matters is that this thread or one like it remains alive for as long as possible. The exact content is of secondary importance, as long as it's not all flaming or other lock-inducing activity.

That's the ticket and the point of the threads: Bioware listening to its playerbase.

EDIT:

I wonder if EA had any role to play in this. If I remember
correctly there has been a gay option in every bioware game since
KOTOR. Then EA buys the company and suddenly that option is gone. That
strikes me as more than a coincidence.

 

No. Dragon Age: Origins came out under EA banner, and includes both male and female homosexual options.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 01 février 2010 - 08:21 .

[LolaRuns]

Then you're talking to the wrong developer. Bioware has always been heavily story driven. If you want "freedom" (and absolutely abysmal stories) Bethesda would be your choice.

If you read my posts, I've been making that argument. Namely that to me ME isn't an RPG anymore/is moving more into an action/storytelling direction. And if that's what it's supposed to be (which I believe) then I think people are barking up the wrong tree.

But people who think that it is about freedom (again, I'm not that side) have their own points. Such as the gaving having been advertised as an RPG/"YOUR Sheppard". Or that previous versions apparently did include same sex romance versions, even partially finished. Which would negate the "well it's story driven and it's not part of their vision of the story". Since apparently at one point it was at least compatible with their vision on things.

Lol, yay for quality. So you'd rather have it completely half-assed than not have it at all. Well, most developers don't really think like that, and won't add sub-par and low quality parts to their games because you wanna see some gay dry humping.

(1) Your concern for the quality of gay romances is truly heartwarming
(2) And you are so right, Bioware would never put out something buggy so it can't even run (I seem to remember a certain DLC that actually had to be withdrawn due to poor quality...) or something like, let's say, deeply inferior Italian voice acting. No, they would NEVER do that.

*dripping with sarcasm*

Sorry if I find your argument to be less than credible. All this pi**ing and moaning about "Noooooooo, it would be so much wooooooork! It would break the backs of the poooooor, poooor developers*" is just as pathetic as any "gay rights" whining. If people can lobby for xeno romances, why shouldn't they be able to lobby for same sex ones? 

*very much unlike adding several new romancables, that is totally doable and not back breaking.

If they can't enjoy the game because they can't play gay, honestly
it's their problem, their perception of gaming is absolutely shallow
and maybe they should consider broadening their horizons.

It's still marginally less pathetic to be able to enjoy a game less for an option that doesn't exist than people claiming not be able to enjoy a game just because a completely voluntary/100% avoidable option potentially existing.

Modifié par LolaRuns, 01 février 2010 - 08:24 .

[Abriael_CG]

sw33ts wrote...
I stated earlier that it wouldn't even cost more. If simple modders can just take Alister's lines and make a m/m relationship in DOA or take Morrigan's voice and make it a f/f I'm sure bioware could do that just as easily. Just like when in ME1 if you romance Liara as a female or a male IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME. It's the exact same line except they say especially since most of the time Liara just calls you Shepard/Commander. Shepard I love you. Shepard I feel we have something. Never I love her or I love him. It's i love shepard. That's hardly hard or expensive to do.

You don't get it. So let me reiterate. DA:O is voiced only in english. English is mostly NOT a gender-sensitive language, so the same line sounds exactly the same wheter you tell it to a male or a female (while there are still nuances that SHOULD be changed to make a quality product, and in fact the Alistair mod is an amatorial product that would never be accepted on a professional level). ALL the other languages Mass effect 2 is voiced on (actually I'm not sure about German), are gender sensitive, hence you'd have to voice all the lines twice. The "Shepard" or "commander" trick solves the problem just partially, and just in english.

I don't think you get what I'm saying at all. The thing is they allow every kind of relationship even alien/human EXCEPT m/m. Why would you do that as a company?

Because F/F is quite a lot more popular, in general, between gamers than an M/M option. So they probably assumed it was warranted. The fact that they excluded it in ME2 should probably tell you the following:

They don't have or are not willing to spend the resources to make BOTH a M/M and a F/F option, because they feel that either doesn't fit their vision or their budget. In Mass Effect 1 they tentatively added a F/F option, but they saw that it brought them more grief and harm than gain (with all the "we want M/M too! You anti gay bastards!" crap) , so they just cut down both options. Good job to the ones that protested, I'd say. They managed to have both options removed with threads like this.

I said it makes the player feel like the Shepard they're playing is more THIER'S. Is that not what an RPG is? To play whomever you're playing as as if it were you in the game? And when I said enjoy I'm speaking on the romance aspect. Everyone gets a romance option they can enjoy except gay males. Not very fair if you ask me.

If they had to be fair, they should include every minority you could think of. What about transgenders? What about polyamorous? What makes gay males more important then them? 
Computer RPGs CANNOT include ALL options. That's what pen and paper is for.

[Eidolonn]

Yeled wrote...

Honestly I'm not sure why Bioware limits your choices at all. If they make a character romancable, why not let anyone romance them regardless of gender?

How about this for an answer...  the main character is not gay and/or the NPC is not gay.

Novel concept.

It's a game.  The HAVE to limit choices because of storyline and resources, amongst other things.  Maybe the game creators simply did not want to put male gay characters in the game.  It is their choice, after all.  If you don't like it, don't buy it or don't play it or mod it yourself to include it.

[Lightice_av]

Eidolonn wrote...

It's a game.  The HAVE to limit choices because of storyline and resources, amongst other things.

Didn't prevent Dragon Age...Seriously, your argument has been made a hundred times. It's explained dry time and time again.

[Abriael_CG]

Lightice_av wrote...
The purpose for this "whining" is none other than to bring attention to the fact that there are plenty of people who would be happy to have the option.

Plenty? An handful of people screaming in a forum are quite negligible in the grand scheme of things.

There was no "whining" last time, and hence no option

Lol, excuse me? The fact that there was no M/M romance in ME1 but F/F was there caused a crapstorm. You must have lived under a rock in the last three years.
And it's exactly the reason why Bioware removed F/F as well. Good job to the whiners.

[MassFrost]

Eidolonn wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Honestly I'm not sure why Bioware limits your choices at all. If they make a character romancable, why not let anyone romance them regardless of gender?

How about this for an answer...  the main character is not gay and/or the NPC is not gay.

Novel concept.

It's a game.  The HAVE to limit choices because of storyline and resources, amongst other things.  Maybe the game creators simply did not want to put male gay characters in the game.  It is their choice, after all.  If you don't like it, don't buy it or don't play it or mod it yourself to include it.

That about sums it up. People seem to think that Shepard is a character for them to shape any way they want to, but fail to realize that before we took control of him in Mass Effect he was an established character laid out by the developers and story writers the way they wanted him. If they don't want him to experience gay romance, that's their call, not ours. Anyone that really wants gay romance that badly (and frankly I find it a little sad, letting something so trivial ruin your gaming experience) is just as free to open their own gaming studio and develop their own homosexual fantasy sex simulator.. Sorry, Mass Effect just isn't it.