631 réponses à ce sujet

[diskoh]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
While ME does not force you into heterosexuality, it does force gay fans to remain single.

That is what tends to happen if you are surrounded by heterosexuals men.

Just ask all those heterosexual men in prison.

[Abriael_CG]

octoberfire wrote...
You are making the false assumption that gay ME fans are the only ones who want same-sex romances.

This doesn't make them less of a minority. A minority that, unfortunately for them, doesn't fit with the writers' visions.

[Lightice_av]

Which makes it a quite minor trait, now, doesn't it?

No. Skin colour is a minor trait, yet the game allows you to create a Shepard with any possible, and a few impossible options. Sexual preferences and the ability to act on them are a fairly major part of people's personality, whether or not they act like stereotypes. That's why the romance option exists, at all.

They did because it was fitting their vision. Gay shepard didn't. Good for the ones that liked Garrus and Tali (which isn't that "xeno" anyway, you can pretty much imagine her as very humanoid).

Their vision bends to the fan opinions. They have outright states this to be true; they listen to the fanbase, and see what they want added. Tali and Garrus weren't options in the first game, because the devs didn't think there was any demand for such wierd options. They discovered they were mistaken, and corrected their mistake. They can most certainly do that again.

Is it? I'm pretty sure that the ones that asked for tali romance are quite a lot more than the ones that asked for gay shepard.

Because those who expected a gay Shepard took it for granted that the option would be implemented. Now they too are correcting their mistake.

This is the most naive comment I ever saw. I'm sorry. Game development is a matter of resources, and resources are finite. putting resources to implement "gay shepard" would invariably mean taking the resources from somewhere else IE: Damaging the game experience of the majority.

Hardly. They had time ot add unnecessary fluff like fishtank, after all. And considering that the same romance option would almost certainly be available for the majority as well, all it would require would be a handful of lines. They added three male romanceable NPCs for the female Shepard even though women are almost certainly a minority in the fanbase. Just saying.

[Killian Kalthorne]

diskoh wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
While ME does not force you into heterosexuality, it does force gay fans to remain single.

That is what tends to happen if you are surrounded by heterosexuals men.

Just ask all those heterosexual men in prison.

That is the soap's fault.  THE SOAP I TELL YOU!  

[Akiada]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Akiada wrote...
And yet, there sits a fishtank and model ships in my cabin.

Truly, the population of gay ME fans must be smaller than he ME2 Fans-of-virtual-models-and-fishtanks!

Actually collectibles are a quite popular part of gaming, and many people complained that in ME1 the cabin was too drab. So yeah, it's very probable that gay ME fans are a minority compared to fans of virtual models and fishtanks.

If it was an attempt to cater to them then it failed pretty miserably. Unlike most collectibles they're not hard to get - just visit the citadel and Illium and some other places and put down 500 creds on each. Done. Nothing like the three missions in ME1 all focused around harder-to-acquire collectibles.

Modifié par Akiada, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:06 .

[Eternal Dust]

Abriael_CG wrote...

octoberfire wrote...
You are making the false assumption that gay ME fans are the only ones who want same-sex romances.

This doesn't make them less of a minority. A minority that, unfortunately for them, doesn't fit with the writers' visions.

You mean the same writers who, in the first game, had written same-sex dialogue for both Ashley and Kaidan? The same writers who allowed a F/F romance for FemShep and Liara?

[jselene]

octoberfire wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

Akiada wrote...
And yet, there sits a fishtank and model ships in my cabin.

Truly, the population of gay ME fans must be smaller than he ME2 Fans-of-virtual-models-and-fishtanks!

Actually collectibles are a quite popular part of gaming, and many people complained that in ME1 the cabin was too drab. So yeah, it's very probable that gay ME fans are a minority compared to fans of virtual models and fishtanks.

You are making the false assumption that gay ME fans are the only ones who want same-sex romances.

This.  And, while a lot of people would probably like the collectables, they wouldn't add much to anybody's game, so the people who benefit benefit less than those who would benefit from the inclusion of same-sex romances.

Also: I'd like to spread this link, of an interesting glitch: 

Just...to prove that 'no bisexual squadmates in ME2' wasn't always the case. 

Edit: link-ified the link

Modifié par jselene, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:09 .

[diskoh]

This really has nothing to do with "gay fans." It's a misnomer to think that you have to be gay to want a gay romance option in the game.

The main audience it would appeal to are heterosexual women. Look at any gay related entertainment: Will & Grace, L Word, Twilight, the audience is straight females.

After that demographic would be people like me: straight males who play femshep for the voice actor and don't want to bang man-lizards.

After that would be our lovely gay friends.

Modifié par diskoh, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:09 .

[Traumacrazy]

diskoh wrote...

This really has nothing to do with "gay fans." It's a misnomer to think that you have to be gay to want a gay romance option in the game.

The main audience it would appeal to are heterosexual women. Look at any gay related entertainment: Will & Grace, L Word, Twilight, the audience is straight females.

After that demographic would be people like me: straight males who play femshep for the voice actor and don't want to bang man-lizards.

After that would be our lovely gay friends.

lol...twilight gay

best comparison evar

[jselene]

diskoh wrote...

This really has nothing to do with "gay fans." It's a misnomer to think that you have to be gay to want a gay romance option in the game.

The main audience it would appeal to are heterosexual women. Look at any gay related entertainment: Will & Grace, L Word, Twilight, the audience is straight females.

After that demographic would be people like me: straight males who play femshep for the voice actor and don't want to bang man-lizards.

After that would be our lovely gay friends.

Better yet, look at the JRPG fans. I'd estimate around 3/4 of the active fandom to be females who prefer m/m....

Modifié par jselene, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:14 .

[Killian Kalthorne]

I miss WIll and Grace, but you seem to miss the prolific gay action hero. Captain Jack Harkness played by John Borrowman. Now if I could get my MaleShep to look like him... That or Conan O'Brien.

[Traumacrazy]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

I miss WIll and Grace, but you seem to miss the prolific gay action hero. Captain Jack Harkness played by John Borrowman. Now if I could get my MaleShep to look like him... That or Conan O'Brien.

lol

i would pay to see a shep Conan O'Brien look alike:happy:

[Abriael_CG]

Lightice_av wrote...
No. Skin colour is a minor trait, yet the game allows you to create a Shepard with any possible, and a few impossible options. Sexual preferences and the ability to act on them are a fairly major part of people's personality, whether or not they act like stereotypes. That's why the romance option exists, at all.

A new skin color takes a few minute to implement. A gay romance is on a whole different level time and resources wise.

Their vision bends to the fan opinions. They have outright states this to be true; they listen to the fanbase, and see what they want added. Tali and Garrus weren't options in the first game, because the devs didn't think there was any demand for such wierd options. They discovered they were mistaken, and corrected their mistake. They can most certainly do that again.

The vision of writers bends only up to a point that looks acceptable to them. Which normally coincides with what they like (or are able to write effectively). Evidently gay romance wasn't acceptable to their vision.

Because those who expected a gay Shepard took it for granted that the option would be implemented. Now they too are correcting their mistake.

What made you take it for granted? There was no M/M shepard in ME1. What made you think there would have been one in ME2?
Also, the ones whining for gay dry humping in ME2 are still quite a minority compared to the ones that asked for Tali romance. Tali has always been a massive favourite between ME players (much because of how drab and dull Ash and Liara were).

Hardly. They had time ot add unnecessary fluff like fishtank, after all. And considering that the same romance option would almost certainly be available for the majority as well, all it would require would be a handful of lines. They added three male romanceable NPCs for the female Shepard even though women are almost certainly a minority in the fanbase. Just saying.

An "handful" of lines? Is that your idea of a decent romance? You seem to want gay shepard just for the sake of making a point, without even caring about quality.
And women aren't that much of a minority anymore, expecially for story-driven games. For being such a gay-fan, you're a bit stuck in the eighties

Bottomline, the resources spent for implementing a fishtank are negligible compared to a whole new dialogue branch.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I have tried but each time I have failed.



*sniff*

[steve1945]

Why do people think they have inalienable rights when real life shows them time and time again such things dont exist?



The only right you have to something is what you take. What you have the force and will to establish and hold.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Eh?

[Vasja1st]

Actualy you get somthing close, after the loyality mission of mordin, mordin speaks to you about tension, and how different speacies act in different situation, and if salarians did have a strong sex drive like other races have, he will probablie try to have sex with Shepard. my shepard was male when mordin told this to him. so this is the closest thing you get to a gay relation in this game...

[Lightice_av]

A new skin color takes a few minute to implement.

I'm pretty sure that there are a few modellers out there who want to have a word with you.

The vision of writers bends only up to a point that looks acceptable to them. Which normally coincides with what they like (or are able to write effectively). Evidently gay romance wasn't acceptable to their vision.

It was almost certainly left out purely for marketing reasons; namely the assumption that because no-one was actively demanding a gay romance, it wouldn't actually be wanted. The Bioware writers have shown themselves perfectly capable and willing to write gay romance. Look at Liara in ME1 and Zevran in Dragon Age.

What made you take it for granted? There was no M/M shepard in ME1. What made you think there would have been one in ME2?

A promise made early in the development, doubled with Dragon Age.

An "handful" of lines? Is that your idea of a decent romance? You seem to want gay shepard just for the sake of making a point, without even caring about quality.

Far from true. Most lines can be gender-neutral in a romance subplot, so if a character is also romanceable to the opposite sex, there is no need to model a new character, get a new voice actor, or even change more than a few dozen lines. A relatively small investment. More content gets deleted every time a game is made, and stuff is cut out as the script is altered.

And women aren't that much of a minority anymore, expecially for story-driven games.

Indeed, and look above, and see them demanding M/M romance, as well.

[Dzikv]

diskoh wrote...

This really has nothing to do with "gay fans." It's a misnomer to think that you have to be gay to want a gay romance option in the game.

The main audience it would appeal to are heterosexual women. Look at any gay related entertainment: Will & Grace, L Word, Twilight, the audience is straight females.

After that demographic would be people like me: straight males who play femshep for the voice actor and don't want to bang man-lizards.

After that would be our lovely gay friends.

I QFT this lovely example... Same with me here. I play Femshep and i don't want to -as you say- Bang the lizard...Would love a f/f romance.

Modifié par Dzikv, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:40 .

[Eternal Dust]

Dzikv wrote...

diskoh wrote...

This really has nothing to do with "gay fans." It's a misnomer to think that you have to be gay to want a gay romance option in the game.

The main audience it would appeal to are heterosexual women. Look at any gay related entertainment: Will & Grace, L Word, Twilight, the audience is straight females.

After that demographic would be people like me: straight males who play femshep for the voice actor and don't want to bang man-lizards.

After that would be our lovely gay friends.

I QTF this lovely example... Same with me here. I play Femshep and i don't want to -as you say- Bang the lizard...Would love a f/f romance.

FemSheps have gotten quite an array of zoo animals to party with this time, from man lizards to raptors.

[Abriael_CG]

Lightice_av wrote...
I'm pretty sure that there are a few modellers out there who want to have a word with you.

And a few modders out there that can testify that adding skin colors is not that hard.

It was almost certainly left out purely for marketing reasons; namely the assumption that because no-one was actively demanding a gay romance, it wouldn't actually be wanted. The Bioware writers have shown themselves perfectly capable and willing to write gay romance. Look at Liara in ME1 and Zevran in Dragon Age

Zevran isn't gay. He's bisexual (or better, pansexual lol), and making him bisexual actually brought a lot of complaints, since you can't really befriend him without having to flirt with him.
Assuming that no one wants it because no one is actively demanding it? With how vocal gay-rights-in-videogames people are? oh please...

A promise made early in the development, doubled with Dragon Age.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect are developed and written by entirely different people that actually are even based in different cities. As for the promise, I'd love to see it quoted, because I saw no such thing.

Far from true. Most lines can be gender-neutral in a romance subplot, so if a character is also romanceable to the opposite sex, there is no need to model a new character, get a new voice actor, or even change more than a few dozen lines. A relatively small investment. More content gets deleted every time a game is made, and stuff is cut out as the script is altered.

You might not be familiar with the investment required to voice a few lines, including all variations, for both character options, in all the languages in which the game has been voiced. Without mentioning that quite a few languages (there isn't only english you know) ARE gender sensitive (without even mentioning the fact that romancing a male and a female normally implies the use of different terminology even in english, at least if you want good writing), so MOST of the romance lines would have to be changed.
So no, it's not a small investment. Despite what you'd like to make people believe to further your agenda.

Indeed, and look above, and see them demanding M/M romance, as well.

Yes, I see a COUPLE of them "demanding". It's like the laughable notion that most female anime fan enjoy yaoi. Which couldn't be farther from the truth. You're part of a niche. You might want to live with the idea that not all game developers can cater to every niche with all of their games.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:47 .

[Abriael_CG]

double post.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:45 .

[Lightice_av]

And a few modders out there that can testify that adding skin colors is not that hard.

And I'm certain that they can also tell you that adding models that make them more than dyed Caucasans demands a lot more.

Zevran isn't gay. He's bisexual (or better, pansexual lol), and making him bisexual actually brought a lot of complaints, since you can't really befriend him without having to flirt with him.

Either way, he is a gay option. And I had no trouble befriending him without flirting. People just have this oddest assumption that there's only one "right" dialogue path.

You might not be familiar with the investment required to voice a few lines, including all variations, for both character options, in all the languages in which the game has been voiced.

You would be very wrong in that case. And for your information, for every game like Mas Effect hundreds or thousands of lines get recorded, and then cut out of the final product because the script was altered midway. A far, far greater loss than one extra option.

You're part of a niche. You might want to live with the idea that not all game developers can cater to every niche with all of their games.

They carter to the F/F niche, why not M/M? The difference in sizes is not that great. I'm not part of the niche, by the way. I won't play the M/M option if one is implemented. I'm simply an avid supporter for a perfectly justified demand in a game that prides itself for giving the player the option to choose.



And my conversation with a hater who would have other people deprived from a choice that would appeal to them simply because he finds it unpleasant is over. I will return once possibility for more intelligent conversation arrives again.

[Killian Kalthorne]

The thing is there is a lot more F/F players than M/M players. For some odd reason hetero men find lesbian sex just as appealing as lesbians do. The same can't be said about gay sex for some odd reason.

Modifié par Killian Kalthorne, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:52 .

[Arik7]

+ 10 Paragon Points to Lightice_av. ;-)