168 réponses à ce sujet

[Roxlimn]

Janan Pacha:



You're using way too many words for what essentially amounts to backpedaling. Just own up to it and concede that you were either inaccurate or wrong.



Whether or not Shockwave or Singularity is useful depends on how you're using them and for what. One user has reported success with them. Since he can do it, I'm inclined to believe him. It may just be that you lack the necessary skill to leverage these powers well.



If you can throw out real numbers, you could be much more convincing, but I doubt you can. How many seconds does Singularity slow down which targets that's got which defenses? How about Shockwave?



I can't take your word seriously when you're handwaving and backpedaling all over the place.



And again, compare with Infiltrator. Why even use Incinerate when you can use Tactical Cloak? At least with Throw, the cooldown is low enough that there's no real cost to using it. Yes, you could be saving the cooldown for Reave, but Reave doesn't have ammo. Your gun does. Rather than expend ammo, Throw the guy, hunker down for a few seconds (or god forbid, shoot your gun at something that's got defenses) and then use Reave.



I don't see how the cooldown is all that material.

[grumpymooselion]

Roxlimn wrote...

flamingdts:

So far, the only major input along the lines that Adepts actually are more challenging to play comes from a guy who thinks that two out of five is a majority. Pardon me for taking that with a little grain of salt.

Shall we pardon you for your lack of understand of how their abilities actually work.

Aside from the Soldier, all classes have at least one power that require defenses to be down before you can use them. Of the remaining classes, Vanguard gets Shotgun and Charge, Infiltrator get Sniper Rifle and Tactical Cloak.

And Adepts have only one base power that doesn't require enemy defenses be down to be wholly effective. All the others are either completely ineffective or have only very minimal effect against shielded targets. Even then, Reave, which is a bonus power (meaning not a base) is much more effective versus shields than Warp whose effect is minimal in comparison.

Ammo specialties are okay-ish. It's not a huge deal. Losing the gun access is a bigger deal. In return, Adept gets Warp, Singularity, and Shockwave, in addtion to Pull and Throw. It doesn't seem like an overly bad deal given that you can more or less rely on your team mates for gun damage, anyway. Once your enemy's defenses are down, Throw for the quick kill and hunker back down to cover.

Why are you okay with the majority of your Biotics never fully fully effective until an enemy is nearly dead? An Adept's mainstay of power is based around their ability to use Biotics, their lack of weapon variety and everything about the class is focused around the assumption that their powers are used to make up for those facts, yet their powers in actual practice cannot be used until an enemy is nearly dead.

I'll have to really try it out on a full run for a definitive analysis, but if Adept is not as good, it's probably more to do with gun access than it is powers limitations, in which case the Sentinel would be in a similar position.

Which is wrong. Having played a Sentinel, Adept and Vanguard through, the Sentinel has the easiest time out of the three on insanity. The Vanguard is more fun though. The Adept is the hardest to play, but would be fun if they could at least use some of their most fun powers effectively the majority of the time.

[NotMyName13]

Roxlimn wrote...

Janan Pacha:

Two is not "the majority of your powers," since the Adept power count is five. Last I checked, two out of five is not a majority.

Besides which, I don't understand how you're depleted every shield and armor in the area globally without killing anything. Aside from being difficult, it's also a stupid strategy. Once one enemy's defenses are down, Pull and Throw allow you the easy kill, regardless of cover. That doesn't mean the fight is over. It just means you can kill that one target.

And no, it's NOT more cost-effective to just shoot it.  That's because bullets in this game actually mean something.  Rather than offing some mook without defenses, I would rather use my ammo to deplete the next enemy's shields.

And yes, enemy health actually is that much - even on Normal.  It takes more than one bullet to off enemies.

All your saying is that NOW, the different classes provide different ways to provide finishing moves. Then they lose their respective 'Roles'. So instead of a tank you just have somebody that kills and finishes with guns. Instead of a debuffer, you have someone that finishes with warp.  Instead of a crowd controller you have one that finishes with a throw? Wait what? NO MORE ROLES PERIOD. Just different ways of killing right?

[Roxlimn]

Janan Pacha:

As I said, I'll take your experiences with the class with a grain of salt. You don't need powers at all to finish the game on Insanity. They're just for fun. If you found Adept hardest to play - well, that's your opinion. It could be true, but it could be because of a whole lot of factors inherent to you and your playstyle.

So far, you haven't explained anything that tells us why Adepts are harder to play - just that you personally did so, presumably because you didn't use any of their powers profitably. That'd make any class harder to play, I'd imagine.

NotMyName13:

To be fair, we ARE talking only about Insanity difficulty level here.  Gameplay was not tested very well at that level, or, I imagine, even designed around that level.  For the most part, I think gameplay was designed mostly around Normal difficulty, with the higher and lower difficulties given decreasing amounts of attention the further away from norm they were.  This was also the case in ME1.

Just because the class roles could be blurred at less-tested difficulty levels doesn't mean they are.  It's just for those difficulty levels.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 30 janvier 2010 - 06:26 .

[grumpymooselion]

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Janan Pacha:

You're using way too many words for what essentially amounts to backpedaling. Just own up to it and concede that you were either inaccurate or wrong.[/quote]

What I said there is the same thing I've always said.

[quote]Whether or not Shockwave or Singularity is useful depends on how you're using them[/quote]

No, it's not. They are not effective until a target's defenses are down.

Shockwave will stutter a target with their defenses up for barely a second. It's not worth the cooldown.

Singularity has a very brief immob and very very slight damage effect against defenses. It's not worth the cooldown.

I said such in my initial posts.

[quote]and for what. One user has reported success with them. Since he can do it, I'm inclined to believe him. It may just be that you lack the necessary skill to leverage these powers well.[/quote][/quote]

There is no skill involved. They work a certain way. They always work this way. They work no other way no matter how you use them. There is no skill involved. Their effects against shielded targets are always the same. Their effects against unshielded targets are always the same.

[quote]If you can throw out real numbers, you could be much more convincing, but I doubt you can. How many seconds does Singularity slow down which targets that's got which defenses? How about Shockwave?[/quote]

Um, what? Last time I checked I didn't get numbers flying up over enemy heads when I used any of my abilities. Your ability to understand what's going on is based on two things: The extent to which the shield/barrier/armor/health bar goes down, and the visual action they take when effected by a power.

[quote]I can't take your word seriously when you're handwaving and backpedaling all over the place.[/quote]

Again, what back pedalling. My stance hasn't changed in the slightest. The thing about singularity not being effective I've said many times before, not just in this thread but in others, and not just today, but even prior. As for handwaving, I have no idea what you think hand waving it.

In fact the only thing I notice about your posts in your inability to quote and point at exactly what you're talking about. You've already admitted a lack of knowledge on the subject, yet continue to argue it with someone whose main class in ME1 was an Adept and whose first TWO playthroughs in ME2 were with an Adept.

[quote]And again, compare with Infiltrator. Why even use Incinerate when you can use Tactical Cloak?[/quote]

I have no idea what you're talking about again. There are two different abilities with two different purposes.

[quote]At least with Throw, the cooldown is low enough that there's no real cost to using it.[/quote]

You can't use throw until enemy defenses are down. Once enemy defenses are down it's more cost effective to gun the enemy down, saving your cooldown to use Warp or Reave on your next target.

[quote]Yes, you could be saving the cooldown for Reave, but Reave doesn't have ammo. Your gun does.[/quote]

Duh?

[quote]Rather than expend ammo, Throw the guy, hunker down for a few seconds (or god forbid, shoot your gun at something that's got defenses) and then use Reave.[/quote]

It's more cost effective to shoot the person without defenses. Enemy health is laughable (part of the problem). Shoot them, reave or warp your next target.

[quote]I don't see how the cooldown is all that material.[/quote]

You don't see a lot. The most annoying and important thing for an Adept is getting enemy defenses down, because the majority of their powers are useless or ineffective until enemy defenses are down. The problem then becomes, why use them once enemy defenses are down? It means your power would be nothing more than a finishing move. The issue is that the Adept was build completely around their biotics, their lack of weapons and other weaknesses are all built in with the idea you'll use your biotics to make up for these weaknesses - yet the harder difficulties put in the issue that despite being built this way, the game prevents you from using that thing that makes up for your other weaknesses until the enemy is nearly dead anyways.

It's contradiction.

It doesn't make sense.

Stop defending it.

[IRace82]

@flamingdts

I exactly agree with you. If a want to play a lets say a mage in DA:O and i want it to play on any difficulty and mage is supposed to kill and dissable enemies right? This is what he does and has spells.



lets say adept is supposed to kill things with mass effect field ergo biotics and to CONTROL THE BATTLEFIELD (its in the description of the class). And he cant do that on any difficulty other then casual/normal. That is the point of the arguement. How would you feel let say: monsters in da:o on insane are immune to most of mage spell and worst of all crowd control spells. So mage cant do what is he supposed to do right? Sure always someone would say : you could play it, just use your staff or squadmates until enemie is dead or wear him off and then use your crowd control spell when monster is already dead.



soldier is supposed to be a shooter and the one that can use all the weapons right? enginer also does his designed role pretty well if not awesome. Then you have characters like adept or vanguard that cant do their role properly and that means the is shomething wrong with the gameplay. Sure in da:o warrior is less powerfull then mage, but he is not suppose to control the battlefield he is supposted to fight, archer to snipe with a bow.



Now in Mass effect 2 vanguard is just as squishy as adept and he cant do his role, adept is supposed to control the battlefield ... it cant. Playstayle is not important, as someone is always better at somethings as the other.



Important is that you cant just make a class that uses only warp and negate his profession. it is the same and imagine the rave on this forums if soldier could only kill things with weapons when they are already dead and meanwhile use only concussive shoot skill. And even that would not be that horrible, as yeah he has a field of biotic energy that makes bullets to bounce lore. but how would they explain that to me, that shields and barriers in ME1 could be breached with biotics and now they cant. And better yet: how can enemie shoot me with their biotics and they work on me and i cant them. That is stupid.

[grumpymooselion]

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Janan Pacha:

As I said, I'll take your experiences with the class with a grain of salt.[/quote]

Just be sure to take anything you say with even less respect, since you've already admitted to having no experience.

[quote]You don't need powers at all to finish the game on Insanity.[/quote]

You're dense. This was the main meat of the initial arguement, and it wasn't even my argument. That the Adept is actually forced to act like another class, with less weapons and less abilities on insanity. This takes away the entire idea of classes having their own unique flare and play style.

[quote]They're just for fun.[/quote]

The powers are not just for fun, the entire class was built around the idea you'll use them - but the majority of them can't be used effectively until enemy defenses are down.

[quote]If you found Adept hardest to play - well, that's your opinion. It could be true, but it could be because of a whole lot of factors inherent to you and your playstyle.[/quote]

They were hardest to play because they aren't allowed to use the full range of their powers.

[quote\\\\So far, you haven't explained anything that tells us why Adepts are harder to play[/quote]

I have. Intimately. In great detail. I notice you completely ignore it. I'm starting to think you do it on purpose.

[quote]- just that you personally did so, presumably because you didn't use any of their powers profitably. That'd make any class harder to play, I'd imagine.[/quote]

They can't use the majority of their powers effectively. There's no personal thing about it. They can't. They are forced to play like another class, with less weapons and less powers. The entire class was built around the idea they use their biotics. They were advertised to play as a class that used biotics first.

The actual play result on Insanity, for example, is they can't use most of their powers effectively until a target is almost dead. Your opinion of the Adept completely contradicts not only their mode of play, but the idea of class variety in general. An Adept on the harder difficulty setttings is forced into a tedious playstyle, one that does not play like an Adept, but another class, but without the perks of any of those classes.

An Adept is meant to kill and control with Mass Effect fields, but they are not actually able to meet this playstyle - this is the core of the issues - they are instead forced to play like another class entirely that cannot rely on their main mode of play.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 30 janvier 2010 - 06:40 .

[NotMyName13]

Roxlimn wrote...

Janan Pacha:

As I said, I'll take your experiences with the class with a grain of salt. You don't need powers at all to finish the game on Insanity. They're just for fun. If you found Adept hardest to play - well, that's your opinion. It could be true, but it could be because of a whole lot of factors inherent to you and your playstyle.

So far, you haven't explained anything that tells us why Adepts are harder to play - just that you personally did so, presumably because you didn't use any of their powers profitably. That'd make any class harder to play, I'd imagine.

NotMyName13:

To be fair, we ARE talking only about Insanity difficulty level here.  Gameplay was not tested very well at that level, or, I imagine, even designed around that level.  For the most part, I think gameplay was designed mostly around Normal difficulty, with the higher and lower difficulties given decreasing amounts of attention the further away from norm they were.  This was also the case in ME1.

Just because the class roles could be blurred at less-tested difficulty levels doesn't mean they are.  It's just for those difficulty levels.

And that is the inherent flaw in the design. ITS WAS NEVER ABOUT DIFFICULTY OF ADEPT ON INSANITY. Please reread this threads as well as the the other.   Read the title of the thread again. Blocking out a set of skills on enemies with defenses(outside of elites and bosses), on any difficulty level is dumb. Why not use diminishing returns then? Check the Coalesced.ini file, theres clearly a switch for it, so why not balance it to lower duration or effectiveness on higher difficulty levels. Poor design choice is what it is.

And even on normal difficulty or lower,  all you still have are different classes which just have different finishing moves because of the fact that health is much less than defenses. This game's classes are closer to mortal combat in that all you have are different ways to kill, as oppose to ME1 which had more or less a tank, CC, debuffer, damager.

[grumpymooselion]

NotMyName13 wrote...

And that is the inherent flaw in the design . . . Please reread this threads as well as the the other.   Read the title of the thread again. Blocking out a set of skills on enemies with defenses(outside of elites and bosses), on any difficulty level is dumb.

I agree.

Why not use diminishing returns then? Check the Coalesced.ini file, theres clearly a switch for it, so why not balance it to lower duration or effectiveness on higher difficulty levels. Poor design choice is what it is.

In ME1 I recall they used resistances, and you could spec into the ability to pierce resistances, but never fully. They could resist, and the same was true of your character - they could use those abilities on you, but you could gear up with armor that was resistant to said effects. It was quite sensible if in need of some slight tweaks at the highest levels of play.

[SonsofNorthWind]

A few thoughts.



1. I, too, am fairly disappointed with Adepts in ME2.



2. I don't have the game in front of me, but isn't Reave specific to Barrier / Armor / Health and not to shields? People keep listing it as a shield counter.



3. Someone brought up AI Hacking being crap, someone else asked about Dominate. As someone who is running an Engineer main for my 1st playthrough, I I think the defense>powers system in ME 2 really rewards messing with the game's targeting protocols over trying to CC the enemy directly. Combat Drone, Dominate, and AI Hacking allow you to generate or convert a trash mob that will pull enemy attention off your troops. Against solo enemies and many groups Combat Drone / shoot until Drone is dead / Combat Drone is a reasonable softlock, and against multiple enemies there is usually one without defenses (at least, there is on Veteran) for Domination / Hacking.



4. Haven't played extensively with it yet, but I don't know why Vanguard is getting lumped in with the Adept as a screwed class by some posters. Charge = time slow + bonus barrier + always being at pointblank with a Shotgun. Incendiary ammo in a Shotgun = good against all defenses at short range. Reave gives healing and anti-armor/health/barrier (IIRC, but others are posting anti- shield/barrier). Shockwave and Pull may be unimpressive, but max Charge / Incendiary / Reave / Vanguard skill should provide a solid gameplay core.

[corebit]

vhatever wrote...

Let's
just call it "soldier effect" and delete player biotics

As opposed to biotic effect which was ME1?

[MGIII]

The only option if you want biotics to affect mobs with shields and armor moreso than it already does is to significantly increase the enemy count in any given encounter, make their biotics significantly more potent against you, and improve the AI. "Increasing the health: shields/armor ratio" would be game breaking, and frankly, ineffectual. Unless you keep the shield/armor threshold of damage the same, but it would only make it take longer to kill enemies.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

MGIII wrote...

The only option if you want biotics to affect mobs with shields and armor moreso than it already does is to significantly increase the enemy count in any given encounter, make their biotics significantly more potent against you, and improve the AI. "Increasing the health: shields/armor ratio" would be game breaking, and frankly, ineffectual. Unless you keep the shield/armor threshold of damage the same, but it would only make it take longer to kill enemies.

So you are saying adepts should just be content to cast warp over and over and over and over again and then when the enemy is almost dead cast throw or pull just to say that they cast something other than warp?

Why is it impossible to balance biotics so they can actually be useful before the enemy is almost dead?

[Roxlimn]

NotMyName13:



You can call it however you want. If you want to be that way, then the entire combat system is about "finishing moves." Calling it weird names doesn't change what it is - it's a power that removes enemies.



It's not even just that. Warp is useful for any non-Shield defense, so Adepts are using that on cool-down for those enemies.



On Normal and Veteran - no way. Shockwave and Sing and Pull and Throw are extremely powerful at those difficulty levels, since many enemies have no defenses whatsoever. I can only imagine that they're even more powerful at lower difficulties.



So really, the problem IS only at Insanity, even if there is a problem at all, which Janan Pacha has not presented convincingly.



He has not said how many seconds, exactly, Shockwave and Sing work at the higher levels, and why that duration is insufficient. Note that Tactical Cloak itself only works for about 6 seconds at the highest level. Knocking back a group of enemies for even 2 seconds would be effective CC.

[NotMyName13]

Roxlimn wrote...

NotMyName13:

You can call it however you want. If you want to be that way, then the entire combat system is about "finishing moves." Calling it weird names doesn't change what it is - it's a power that removes enemies.

It's not even just that. Warp is useful for any non-Shield defense, so Adepts are using that on cool-down for those enemies.

On Normal and Veteran - no way. Shockwave and Sing and Pull and Throw are extremely powerful at those difficulty levels, since many enemies have no defenses whatsoever. I can only imagine that they're even more powerful at lower difficulties.

So really, the problem IS only at Insanity, even if there is a problem at all, which Janan Pacha has not presented convincingly.

He has not said how many seconds, exactly, Shockwave and Sing work at the higher levels, and why that duration is insufficient. Note that Tactical Cloak itself only works for about 6 seconds at the highest level. Knocking back a group of enemies for even 2 seconds would be effective CC.

Let me put it this way. Singularity is the adepts signature skill, and it's PRIMARY effect doesn't work on enemies with shield or defense.

Then by the same token enemies with shield/defense should BE immune to Soldiers adreneline rush's  time dilation, meaning they shouldn't slow down. And Infiltrators with tactical cloak should NOT have damage bonus to enemies with shield/defense, and they should SEE the infiltrator.

[spectreU98]

All I can say is lrn2play. Biotics have their own strengths and so do soldiers.

[Ardent Paladin]

Biotics were confusing and a waste of time in ME1 anyways, the new Biotic system in ME2 actually makes sense, I for one enjoy it.



In ME2, using the Sentinel class, and picking up the AR skill donw the road, is absolute invincibility with the Tech Armor. So how the heck is this "Soldier Effect" ? Not to mention Evolving Push is uber knockdown power. So yeah, the Biotic system is good, and the Soldier class is not the only class with mad skillz.

[Johnson45]

I'm a soldier on my playthrough and I don't think it's overpowered. In fact I been saved by my teammates Biotics many times.

[ComTrav]

I really think the main issue here is difficulty level scaling.

I started on Veteran, I feel like there's a good mix of hordes of health-only enemies that you can singularity (or what-have-you) and "elites" that cannot be cc'd until you knockdown their defenses. On Insanity, when every shmuck has SOME defensive bonus, it's not as useful.



I think giving enemies more health (and maybe less armor/shields) on higher difficulty levels would be a good solution for ME3, though I can see the counter-argument that this would mess with the rock-paper-scissors of knocking down defenses which is a big part of gameplay.

[Schneidend]

Six pages, vhatever? Well trolled, ser or madame. Well trolled.

[SonsofNorthWind]

Ardent Paladin wrote...

Biotics were confusing and a waste of time in ME1 anyways, the new Biotic system in ME2 actually makes sense, I for one enjoy it.

Biotics were incredibly powerful in ME1, and the best way to keep your entire team alive for max utility.

In ME2, using the Sentinel class, and picking up the AR skill donw the road, is absolute invincibility with the Tech Armor. So how the heck is this "Soldier Effect" ? Not to mention Evolving Push is uber knockdown power. So yeah, the Biotic system is good, and the Soldier class is not the only class with mad skillz.

Sentinels strength comes from being really quite tough and having a damage power for every defense type, which comes from their mix of tech and biotics.  Pure biotic CC is pretty weak, for reasons listed many times in the thread.  Compare Singularity with Combat Drone, which autonomously seeks trouble, doesn't require stripping enemy defenses before it is useful (both in attracting hostility and in staggering enemies with its jolt, to say nothing of exploding or actually inflicting damage), and has very low cooldown.  Adepts, the pure biotic class, get shorted significantly by the new system.

[AoiDreamer]

I really don't understand why people are so against biotics in ME2? The defenses are cake to take down, even in insanity difficulties, and for all everyone's whine and toggle, Adepts do the same damage, and are just as accurate with a gun as anyone else in the game, even the soldiers. Grab Warp Ammo, research your 50% extra shield knockdown for your sub-machine gun and you'll see shields and barriers crumble in a no time, warp the armor to shreds or flip over to your heavy pistol or sniper, (Which I grabbed up as an additional skill because it helps soften the insanity guys up at a safe distance), and rip through armor.



If shields are still hassling you, try a double overload team, Miranda and Garrus, and break em down, but personally I don't have issues. I love warp, and for me I just take down a few shields, singularity pull a crowd in and warp it to devastation. With the biotic damage research upgrades and cool-downs I can quite literally control the battlefield, even on insanity.



The fact that I can attack enemies around corners with warp or throw, or pull and I can still one hit kill off cliffs, or just two hit combo the guys straight up into the air.. Even the big mechs after their shields go down, or the krogans, all of which have LOTS of life after their defenses are down.



Please, if it's too hard for you to play, turn the difficulty down. I for one find Biotics much more fun and entertaining in this one than the first.

[Soldier989]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Going to quote the wow forums. Biotics are fine, l2p. The "best" class without a doubt that can handle everything is the infiltrator.

Infiltrator is Soldier/Tech, it has nothing to do with Biotics.

[mcsupersport]

Now, I am playing on normal, my first play through, but if Soldiers are easier than my Adept, then I really don't know if I want to play them. I die occasionally when I get careless, but dang, Lift/Sing then Warp combo to do extra damage, you have mobs of low husks, and broad max throw repeatedly to keep the area clear. Pull throw people off cliffs, and into walls to die. Guns are becoming the least used item in my inventory. I even use a low shockwave to get enemies out of cover. Now harder levels may change this, but so far, I would hate the game if it got much easier.



Sing level 3

Pull level 3

Throw level 4 broad throw

Warp level 4 heavy

shockwave level 1



Grunt gives me inferno ammo.



Extra weapon is Assault Rifle for heavy hitting enemies with broad range of defenses.



Anyone ever see what heavy warp does against shields and armor??