78 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

I remember that I started a thread on the old boards in which I speculated that it was highly unlikely that all geth were evil, because of the simple fact that they were sentient and capable of creative and independent thought. I assumed that their religion (worshiping the reapers) was their form of indoctrination. It was nice to see that the "evil geth" were identified as the heretics in ME2. So, of course I decided to convert the heretics.

[GnusmasTHX]

I liked the whole thing with the Admiral's discussing war, and learning from Legion about the geth, and how they don't and never really wanted to pursue a war, which is also what Kiros (Qwib-qwib Admiral) tells you.



I can't wait to settle a dispute between the quarian and geth in ME3.

[Fulgrim88]

Hoax86 wrote...

I'm suspicious that rather than the heretics coming to their senses, the other Geth will absorb their experiences and come to see the Reapers as Saren did - they're too powerful to be resisted, and the only hope of survival is working for them.

Which is why i blew them up. As romantical Legion might seem, pondering about questions of life & existence, they are still just very sophisticated machines.
They don't have ethics like we do. Their main goal is self preservation, as is stated by Legion many times. They bear no ill will against organics, but we shouldn't mistake that for friendship. If preservation means destroying the Quarians, they'll do it. If preservation means siding with the superior force in a galactical war, they'll do it.

We can't apply ethics to a race that doesn't comprehend their very concept. They don't know treason, they don't know loyalty. They'll be perfect allies as long as it serves their cause and they'll turn their back on us without a second thought as soon as it doesn't. They can't be trusted. And even while i believe that the Geth will turn out to be the nice, dancing, friendly robot-people in the end (or Bioware would not go such a long way to introduce Legion), i still stand by my decision

[AngryFrozenWater]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

I liked the whole thing with the Admiral's discussing war, and learning from Legion about the geth, and how they don't and never really wanted to pursue a war, which is also what Kiros (Qwib-qwib Admiral) tells you.

I can't wait to settle a dispute between the quarian and geth in ME3.

I once joked that the geth may have a seat in the Council one day.

[IceTitan]

 I was actually surprised in a way. 

But I like the fact that the Geth aren't really looking for a fight, and that all those you actually have killed were Heretics even the ones on Tali's recruitment mission were heretics.

Sounds like the Geth don't really leave the home world by what I understood.  Gotten so used to seeing the Machines being the bad guys, it's kind of refreshing learning that the geth, only did what they did out of self preservation, and didn't seek revenge, though to a computer revenge could be considering ilogical. Sounds like the geth understand the reasons and actions more than the Quarians understand themselves.

Also Legion made it clear that they do not care for the Reapers, that they actually hate the reapers just as much as you do, and that it seems like they see you as the one person that can face them and stop them.

But I'm glad they didn't go the "Terminator" path with the geth, since I'm actually liking Legion, specially made me laugh, when I confronted him about the N7 armor, and he said file deleted (or something like that), sounded like he was being human like in behavior about it by the body motion and the hesitation. 


Like also the fact that they had sent Legion to track you down in order to find and initiate contact with you. Way they were introducing him before game release sounded like he was hunting you to kill you kind of thing, but in fact was the complete opposite.

Also like how Legion and Tali react and depending on your action, you can negatively effect your rep with one or the other, and also find a way to make them compromise and cooperate with each other.

Think Legion with Garrus and Tali being my favorite characters so far though I guess in Garrus and Tali's case its more due to having them along in ME1 and having grown attached to the two.

Modifié par IceTitan, 11 février 2010 - 09:41 .

[azurelynx]

I rewrote them, just in case they will help me in ME3.

Maybe legion will be the geth leader and help me against the reapers. I will take any help i can.

Also it might be a better conflict than Quarians negotiate peace with Legion instead of GETH ALL DIED, TIME TO RECLAIM

Modifié par azurelynx, 11 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[Mr. Wonko]

Rewriting or killing was a pretty tough decision. Legion told me how the Geth kind of share memories and that he doesn't know how the geth would react to remembering being "brainwashed" (although it's actually just the heretics who were brainwashed.) It might make them go crazy.



So the question was: Kill half the geth and know the other half is likely to help you in the war? Or reprogramm the heretics, making it all or nothing?

I made the decision where I knew the outcome...

[Chrisimo79]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Hoax86 wrote...

I'm suspicious that rather than the heretics coming to their senses, the other Geth will absorb their experiences and come to see the Reapers as Saren did - they're too powerful to be resisted, and the only hope of survival is working for them.

Which is why i blew them up. As romantical Legion might seem, pondering about questions of life & existence, they are still just very sophisticated machines.
They don't have ethics like we do. Their main goal is self preservation, as is stated by Legion many times. They bear no ill will against organics, but we shouldn't mistake that for friendship. If preservation means destroying the Quarians, they'll do it. If preservation means siding with the superior force in a galactical war, they'll do it.

We can't apply ethics to a race that doesn't comprehend their very concept. They don't know treason, they don't know loyalty. They'll be perfect allies as long as it serves their cause and they'll turn their back on us without a second thought as soon as it doesn't. They can't be trusted. And even while i believe that the Geth will turn out to be the nice, dancing, friendly robot-people in the end (or Bioware would not go such a long way to introduce Legion), i still stand by my decision

So you support the Reapers goal to destroy us? Because in their view we are rather primitive biological creatures.

[Tassigny]

Hello,
Got a very postive opinion of the main Geth after ME 2. Finally a nice race of machines in SF.

Modifié par Tassigny, 11 février 2010 - 10:10 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

I was thrilled. They really are a "different" kind of life form and intelligence than we were led to believe in ME1. I thought it was amazing how after everything we learned about them in ME1, I actually sympathized with the Geth more than perhaps any other race in the game.



There better be some payoff for all this in ME3.

[azurelynx]

Chrisimo79 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Hoax86 wrote...

I'm suspicious that rather than the heretics coming to their senses, the other Geth will absorb their experiences and come to see the Reapers as Saren did - they're too powerful to be resisted, and the only hope of survival is working for them.

Which is why i blew them up. As romantical Legion might seem, pondering about questions of life & existence, they are still just very sophisticated machines.
They don't have ethics like we do. Their main goal is self preservation, as is stated by Legion many times. They bear no ill will against organics, but we shouldn't mistake that for friendship. If preservation means destroying the Quarians, they'll do it. If preservation means siding with the superior force in a galactical war, they'll do it.

We can't apply ethics to a race that doesn't comprehend their very concept. They don't know treason, they don't know loyalty. They'll be perfect allies as long as it serves their cause and they'll turn their back on us without a second thought as soon as it doesn't. They can't be trusted. And even while i believe that the Geth will turn out to be the nice, dancing, friendly robot-people in the end (or Bioware would not go such a long way to introduce Legion), i still stand by my decision

So you support the Reapers goal to destroy us? Because in their view we are rather primitive biological creatures.

Well survival in my opinion is the domance of others. If you want to live the longest, you gotta be the biggest and baddest person out there.

Thats how the krogran looked at survival.

[CShep25]

One thing that constantly confused me with Legion was him talking in plural. Was he ('they') the only non-heretic platform? I rewrote, and if it turns out Legion's single body would be the only geth model left in existence after destroying the heretics, my sole survivor would stand by that decision, even if Legion cannot ever be considered truly alone. It's the same reason my renegade found sympathy for the rachni queen.

[Fulgrim88]

Chrisimo79 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Hoax86 wrote...

I'm suspicious that rather than the heretics coming to their senses, the other Geth will absorb their experiences and come to see the Reapers as Saren did - they're too powerful to be resisted, and the only hope of survival is working for them.

Which is why i blew them up. As romantical Legion might seem, pondering about questions of life & existence, they are still just very sophisticated machines.
They don't have ethics like we do. Their main goal is self preservation, as is stated by Legion many times. They bear no ill will against organics, but we shouldn't mistake that for friendship. If preservation means destroying the Quarians, they'll do it. If preservation means siding with the superior force in a galactical war, they'll do it.

We can't apply ethics to a race that doesn't comprehend their very concept. They don't know treason, they don't know loyalty. They'll be perfect allies as long as it serves their cause and they'll turn their back on us without a second thought as soon as it doesn't. They can't be trusted. And even while i believe that the Geth will turn out to be the nice, dancing, friendly robot-people in the end (or Bioware would not go such a long way to introduce Legion), i still stand by my decision

So you support the Reapers goal to destroy us? Because in their view we are rather primitive biological creatures.

No, i don't support it (why should I?), but i can understand it. From the point of view of aeons-old beings we must seem primitve and reckless. And while i can't really deny that, it's still my goal as member of organic life to preserve it. As it would be my goal as a Reaper to continue the cycle. Reapers and Organics are principles that cannot coexist.
And so are Organics and Geth. While the latter don't pose a threat equal to the Reapers (yet), they are not lead by the fundamental things (e.g. feelings and emotions) that define organic life.
We simply don't share a common cause. And while theres no reason to attack us, theres also no reason to help us, especially when the odds are that bad.
In fact, if the Reapers demand it, siding with them would be the most "logical" solution to preserve the Geth.
They have no reason to side with organics out of some sense of "common cause", and are therefore not to be trusted

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 11 février 2010 - 10:53 .

[Chrisimo79]

Fulgrim88 wrote...


No, i don't support it (why should I?), but i can understand it. From the point of view of aeons-old beings we must seem primitve and reckless. And while i can't really deny that, it's still my goal as member of organic life to preserve it. As it would be my goal as a Reaper to continue the cycle. Reapers and Organics are principles that cannot coexist.
And so are Organics and Geth. While the latter don't pose a threat equal to the Reapers (yet), they are not lead by the fundamental things (e.g. feelings and emotions) that define organic life.
We simply don't share a common cause. And while theres no reason to attack us, theres also no reason to help us, especially when the odds are that bad.
In fact, if the Reapers demand it, siding with them would be the most "logical" solution to preserve the Geth.
They have no reason to side with organics out of some sense of "common cause", and are therefore not to be trusted

You forgot that the Geth already decided against following the Reapers even after knowing their power. You forgot that the Geth believe in following their own development instead of following the paths that others lay. Regardless of that - if your reason for destroying the Geth is that they might act against us or could be a danger because they don't have emotions (which were the cause for most if not all of our wars - we are selfish animals, controlled by our emotions and not our thoughts), you should also be in favor of killing all humans that have a different worldview that might threaten yours.
In the end there is no way of knowing what the Geth will decide such as there is no way of knowing how an individual human will decide or an individual turian or whatever. Any of those could decide to follow the Reapers for the sake of surviving, like Saren did. So to make sure that no one poses a threat - you should eliminate everything but yourself.

[Fulgrim88]

Chrisimo79 wrote...
You forgot that the Geth already decided against following the Reapers even after knowing their power. You forgot that the Geth believe in following their own development instead of following the paths that others lay. Regardless of that - if your reason for destroying the Geth is that they might act against us or could be a danger because they don't have emotions (which were the cause for most if not all of our wars - we are selfish animals, controlled by our emotions and not our thoughts), you should also be in favor of killing all humans that have a different worldview that might threaten yours.

When it comes to the point where they threaten to annihalate what i stand for, i will.
Don't mistake what i say, the geth are fine as of now. They keep to themselves. However, when they should expand far enough to get into territorial conflict with organics, i doubt they'll pull out peacefully. Either we pull out, then they expand further, or we oppose them, which will lead to war, or what they believe to be self defense.
I don't judge that, it's just that i see little chance to coexist, given the very different viewpoints.

In the end there is no way of knowing what the Geth will decide such as there is no way of knowing how an individual human will decide or an individual turian or whatever. Any of those could decide to follow the Reapers for the sake of surviving, like Saren did. So to make sure that no one poses a threat - you should eliminate everything but yourself.

That's not a viable point. The difference between Individuals siding with the Reapers and a whole race siding with them (due to shared decisions) should be obvious.

What made the difference in ME1 is how imminent the Reaper threat was. They knew of their power, but they were not threatened with destruction. Organic life was. Most Geth (like Legion) are indifferent to that. They won't support it, but they won't stop it either.
However, if the Reapers confront the Geth with a scenario where it's either we or them, they will turn against us without regret, as self preservation is their maxim.
The only way i can see the Geth siding with Organics, is the Reapers (foolishly) threatening both at once.
That way, we'd share a common cause and it would be logical for the Geth to help us. Still, it won't be out of a sense of comradeship (which the Geth just can't have), but simply serving their goal

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 11 février 2010 - 11:24 .

[Sapienti]

I really liked how the Geth developed in this game. I always thought they were cool and playing this game I had no idea about Legion (kept wondering what was up with that last slot). When I got Legion I was really excited then surprised about the whole "heretic" and Geth situation. I never thought the Quarians were wrong for being afraid of the Geth. Artificial Intelligence is illegal for a reason. Think about all the cases of AI going rogue and deciding organics are better off dead. But now it seems like there could be a chance at peace.



As for the fate deciding mission. I'd rather brainwash a kid than kill it. It may seem merciful to kill rather than brainwash to some people but you gotta look at things as a whole. The Geth originally believed in paving their own path. Some were swayed. Sway them back or kill them either end their existence or alter it. And as for the shaky alliance, either side with the Reapers or be destroyed. And since they don't want to have interference in the way they evolve as a "people" then they naturally oppose them. If they're going to be destroyed they'd then seek help in defending themselves and side with organics.



The Geth aren't against organics and they have no desire to start a conflict which is why they keep to themselves. Being logical beings I'd assume they see no logical reason to fight an offensive war for any reason. I'm really curious to see how things go in ME3.

[yummysoap]

I always thought the geth were adorable. Even when they were killing me.



Mass Effect 2 has done nothing but strengthen this.

[Chrisimo79]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

That's not a viable point. The difference between Individuals siding with the Reapers and a whole race siding with them (due to shared decisions) should be obvious.

The Geth do not share decicions. They make decisions individually, hence the need to build consensus. This is the reasons why the heretics decided to split from the others.

What made the difference in ME1 is how imminent the Reaper threat was. They knew of their power, but they were not threatened with destruction. Organic life was. Most Geth (like Legion) are indifferent to that. They won't support it, but they won't stop it either.

They were threatened to be slaves. Sovereign despised the heretics. There was no reason to believe that the Reapers would leave the others alone.

However, if the Reapers confront the Geth with a scenario where it's either we or them, they will turn against us without regret, as self preservation is their maxim.

No, self determination is their maxim. Or at least both options are equally realistic.

The only way i can see the Geth siding with Organics, is the Reapers (foolishly) threatening both at once.
That way, we'd share a common cause and it would be logical for the Geth to help us. Still, it won't be out of a sense of comradeship (which the Geth just can't have), but simply serving their goal

We do not know whether the Geth can experience comradeship. And individual humans only serve their own goals as well.

[Targonis1]

There are a number of things going on in the Mass Effect universe that people need to understand, and this extends to the Geth.



Sovereign had been ACTIVE for at least 1000 years prior to the first Mass Effect game. The Rakni were driven insane as one sign of this. The Geth may very well have ONLY gone to war due to Sovereign, and may very well have stayed under the control of the Quarians without that interference. Many of the other events may also have been influenced by Sovereign as well for all we know since indoctrination is a very subtle thing.



There are also signs that Sovereign was not the only Reaper around that was left in this part of the universe. The "dead reaper" that you need to deal with to get the IFF may very well have just been asleep, which may be a part of the normal Reaper cycle(remember the way the Reapers disappear for 50,000 years), and this one just didn't leave for whatever reason.



The Geth still have many unanswered questions about what they can and can not do, and a big part of that is how much they were modified by the Reaper influence as a part of getting them to rebel against the Quarians, and then the split within their ranks(heretics split to follow the Reapers).



One concern is that if you use the virus to reclaim the heretics, what would stop the Reapers from just changing them again? If the virus were to work once, why couldn't a new one be made to take control of them again. Any protections made would be trivial for the Reapers to modify.

[IceColdFulcrum]

Are you fully rewriting them...



Or are you just changing them slightly so that the equation that Legion spoke of comes out differently, like the other 95% of Geth?



I really think this is just a form of mental illness in Geth, this is just 'medication' for them.

[Fulgrim88]

Targonis1 wrote...

Sovereign had been ACTIVE for at least 1000 years prior to the first
Mass Effect game.

Which is actually quite a fun fact in itself.
If it wasn't for the Protheans, Sovereigns remote signal of the Citadel would have worked hundreds of
years prior to the revelation of the marsian ruins.
Humanity might have been the first species to explore & settle a freshly "cleaned" universe.
Damn you, Protheans;)


However...considering how it took the Reapers several centuries to wipe out the Protheans, we might as well have discovered our first mass relay to find a nearly victorious Reaper fleet waiting beyond...close call

Chrisimo79 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

That's not a viable point. The difference between Individuals siding with the Reapers and a whole race siding with them (due to shared decisions) should be obvious.

The Geth do not share decicions. They make decisions individually, hence the need to build consensus. This is the reasons why the heretics decided to split from the others.

Still the consensus leads to large groups of them picking sides at once. This is especially true if outside manipulation (virusses) are applied.
They are unstable allies at best.

What made the difference in ME1 is how imminent the Reaper threat was. They knew of their power, but they were not threatened with destruction. Organic life was. Most Geth (like Legion) are indifferent to that. They won't support it, but they won't stop it either.

They were threatened to be slaves. Sovereign despised the heretics. There was no reason to believe that the Reapers would leave the others alone.

Then why did they choose to side with him in the first place?
The part about slavery could not have been known to the heretics, or the other Geth would have interfered.
I'm still puzzled as to what's Legions role is, apart from wearing my armour, though.
They must have a reason to oppose the Reapers, after all. Or they want to know why i have.

However, if the Reapers confront the Geth with a scenario where it's either we or them, they will turn against us without regret, as self preservation is their maxim.

No, self determination is their maxim. Or at least both options are equally realistic.

Still, what if self determination can only be achieved by siding with the Reapers? (Or more precisely, if the Reapers make the Geth believe that it is so. Theres a high possibility that they'll fall for it, not knowing the concept of lying either)

The only way i can see the Geth siding with Organics, is the Reapers (foolishly) threatening both at once.
That way, we'd share a common cause and it would be logical for the Geth to help us. Still, it won't be out of a sense of comradeship (which the Geth just can't have), but simply serving their goal

We do not know whether the Geth can experience comradeship. And individual humans only serve their own goals as well.

Which can be overruled by feelings for others, though. We do not know if Geth are capable of doing something contrary to their goals, just because they like someone

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 11 février 2010 - 01:14 .

[Nastrod]

stylepoints wrote...

I destroyed them because I couldn't bring myself to brainwash anything. It is more merciful to destroy them than brainwash them.

That is how I was. I do think they could be a allied army in ME3 though.

[SirJarenTor]

I always wondered why everyone in the ME Universe had such a terror of Artificial Intelligences.  Especially since there's no (comprehensible, anyway) logical reason for AIs to go to war with organics short of self preservation.  Why the Reapers do it?  Who knows, but they're apparently not even entirely machine.

I thought the Geth had the same problem that Krogan had in the first Mass Effect, wrong place at the wrong time.  The Rachni were a problem, so the Salarian interference with Krogans kickstarted them into space and caused almost as many problems as the Rachni had.  Anyone who's seen SG-1 could easily compare this with the Tollan people's nearest planetary neighbors... give them a generator, they turn it into a weapon and shatter their entire planet, perturbing the orbits of the rest of the nearby planets and annihilating the Tollan homeworld.  The Geth started to come into sentience, and the Quarians panicked.

The Geth, even as explained by the Codex are a "bottom up" sentience; it grew organically (as a heuristic, not a medium) from the raw materials the Quarians put together.  Only by the interaction and networking of the various pieces of hardware and the processes that run on them does Geth have sentience.  There is no "individual" in Geth, since they're basically one very large, very distributed neural network.  Legion only even resembles an individual because the hardware platform that the various processes are housed on is enough to sustain an organic comparable intelligence.  The synthetics we refer to as geth aren't significantly different to your fingers and toes.  They have a function, they have a certain amount of autonomy, but they're bound and controlled by your mind, barring a restricted (like your foot falls asleep) or severed connection.  The sharing of data and lack of isolation is how Geth maintain their collective unity.

Even the way Legion speaks about the Quarians as "The Creators" (and the text IS capitalized if you have subtitles on) indicates they have a certain amount of respect, or even reverence for them.  Part of the conflict is when he and Tali fight is simply because it doesn't make sense for Legion to not share all information he has learned with the rest of his "mind".  Your eyes don't decide what should or should not be sent to the brain, they just see, and your brain determines what is or is not important.  It even aquiesces to Tali's complaints because it has been given a data point that lets it understand some of the Quarians viewpoints.

The Geth have just as much to lose as Organics do against the reapers, and most of the Geth realized this.  The Geth would no longer have any of the self determination they prize, instead they would become an analgue of what the Reapers turned Protheans into - Collectors.  Even Saren tells Shephard that the Reapers don't respect the Geth, they're only tools, like him.

Interestingly enough, the Rachni are probably a relatively close organic analogue of the Geth.  While it may not happen, I get the feeling that the galaxy at large will be pretty disturbed to find my Shephard has preserved the Rachni and reunified the Geth are the the largest part of a galactic army standing against the Reapers.  Solidifying that kind of alliance is probably a lot more likely going through the Rachni, because they owe Shephard everything, and "think" more like Geth than any other Organic species we know of in the Galaxy.  Which is probably why they were so effective a target for the Reapers' indoctrination.

[Gravity Bun]

I felt better for rewriting the heretics. After hearing Legion's archival recording of a Geth asking its Quarian master the nature of its soul, I started feeling sorry for them, and started liking the Quarians less.

[tmp7704]

I still wonder why people believe geth are going to fight "for them" in ME3.



Reapers harvest sentient _organic_ life. As such, they pose no threat to the geth who are machines just like the Reapers only less advanced. So as long as you buy into "geth are not aggressive, they only fight to defend themselves" line, there's no reason for the geth to get involved. At all. Especially when they only gain from the galaxy being wiped clean, as that removes potential threat of the organic species attacking them or limiting the geth growth.