78 réponses à ce sujet

[tanarri23]

Synthetic life might not be suitable for harvesting, but that doesn't mean the Reapers won't destroy the geth to prevent them from becoming a threat. So I think the geth will fight for you in ME3, because they have as much reason to fight the Reapers as any organic species.

[Tamcia]

I destroyed them. Why? Well rewriting is making them mind slaves. They chose their way (worship reapers, destroy organics), they lost. That is the price.

[tmp7704]

tanarri23 wrote...

Synthetic life might not be suitable for harvesting, but that doesn't mean the Reapers won't destroy the geth to prevent them from becoming a threat.

But if the geth don't attack unless provoked how are they supposed to become a threat? If they're not aggressive and harvesting them given no gain, the Reapers don't have reason to be concerned with their presence. They're both logical "species", the most optimal course of action for both is just to leave the other alone.

[Ducarmel]

After speaking to Legion I respect their rights as sapients



If it weren't for Tali I would be all for the Geth cause and have no sympathy for the Quarains

[Lycidas]

tmp7704 wrote...

Reapers harvest sentient _organic_ life. As such, they pose no threat to the geth who are machines...

What exaclty gave you that impression?
I think the lore made it pretty clear so far that NO sentient life other than the Keepers + Collectors (if you can call them that) ever managed to survive a Reaper attack. Do you think there have never been AI's before?
Even Saren made it pretty clear that the Geth might only survive if they prove to be useful to the Reapers.

@Topic

I don't tink rewriting the Geth equals brainwashing. It is more a form of giving them reason again IMHO. At the end they will remember what happened and be free to change their mind again.

Modifié par Lycidas, 11 février 2010 - 03:00 .

[KBGeller]

I rewrote as well. Although, I was kind of saddened to see the Geth were truly still so simplistic. They are not really sentient, just advanced AI. Although, Legion proves that the Geth still have evolutionary potential.

[Jeremy Winston]

The Geth question was presented ambiguously.

First, Legion describes it as an equation coming out differently for one group rather than another. Well, math doesn't change. Given the same inputs, the equation has the same result. So, that implies the Heretics computational algorithsm/hardware have an error. Thus, the virus is like fixing psychological problems.

Then, Legion backpedals and says that the above isn't quite true, but simply represents a different view point. Now, this can imply that their equations take into account random and quantum variables that cannot be defined and may be different for each Geth. That would mean that the 'equation' he spoke about would actually generate a whole range of results, some of which side toward the Heretic view and some that don't. In this case, the virus is brainwashing.

So, frankly, I don't think enough information was really given to know which choice was morally right. However, Thane is pretty accurate when he says that both choices are morally the same... in either case, you are destroying what they are now.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 11 février 2010 - 03:04 .

[tmp7704]

Lycidas wrote...

What exaclty gave you that impression?

The talk with Sovereign who if i recall right speaks specifically of organic intelligent lifeforms -- no reason to make such distinction if it doesn't actually make any difference. Also, the reaction of the geth themselves to presence of Sovereign. They did not touch him, even though --if one buys into idea the Reapers are going to harvest the geth along with everything else-- they'd have all reasons to destroy that single Reaper to prevent their own destruction. 5% of heretic geth wouldn't be able to protect their "god" from the remaining 95%

Modifié par tmp7704, 11 février 2010 - 03:08 .

[SirJarenTor]

Just because the Reapers might not plan to Harvest the Geth, doesn't mean they plan to let them live. After all, we've got pretty good examples of what "Harvesting" actually entails at this point.

[Jeremy Winston]

The reapers would have to destroy the geth to prevent them from interfering with the new crop of organics over the next 50,000 years.

[Chrisimo79]

Fulgrim88 wrote...


Still the consensus leads to large groups of them picking sides at once. This is especially true if outside manipulation (virusses) are applied.
They are unstable allies at best.

So what? The same is true for other species because our governments impose their consensus upon us. Individuals may rebel just like within the Geth. And if one Geth rebels it will either leave or the whole collective won't do a thing.

Then why did they choose to side with him in the first place?

They did not choose to follow Sovereign, The heretics did. Which again shows that your argument is invalid.

Still, what if self determination can only be achieved by siding with the Reapers? (Or more precisely, if the Reapers make the Geth believe that it is so. Theres a high possibility that they'll fall for it, not knowing the concept of lying either)

What makes you think that they don't know about lying? Legion certainly understands the concept of honesty. And Legion continually mentions that following the paths of the Reapers would be a wrong path for the Geth. So what if the Reapers promise the Geth continued existence you ask? I don't know. What if they promise the Krogan continued existence?

Which can be overruled by feelings for others, though. We do not know if Geth are capable of doing something contrary to their goals, just because they like someone

No, our self interest is never overruled by anything. Sometimes helping others lies in our self-interest, though (for example when it simply makes us happy).

[tmp7704]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

The reapers would have to destroy the geth to prevent them from interfering with the new crop of organics over the next 50,000 years.

Except the geth supposedly want nothing but to build their Dyson sphere and sit in there not interfering with anything. Given how incredibly big the space actually is a speck of them would be completely meaningless to development of new cycles.

Modifié par tmp7704, 11 février 2010 - 04:48 .

[Jeremy Winston]

The reapers can't be sure of that, and probably don't care.



A farmer tills his fields.

[intersect]

I re-wrote the virus, but it worries me when Legion said all Geth would acquire the Heretic memories... What if they are persuaded down the heretical path after seeing the heretical viewpoint from the inside... That said, it'd be awesome if they were an ally in ME3

[tmp7704]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

The reapers can't be sure of that, and probably don't care.

The geth are machines, and so are the reapers. They do not base decisions on paranoid gut feel without any solid basis -- so if the geth have policy of not only not interfering but to actually avoid organic life there's no reason for Reapers to expect geth suddenly completely reverse their logic.

More importantly, the reaction of geth themselves should be telling here. They're probably the only species who were in position to actually attack Sovereign rather than let him proceed with his purpose. They didn't. It means for whatever reason they didn't consider his plan to be threat to their own existence, otherwise they'd act simply in self-defense. It means whatever reasoning it was that led them to such stance, they are not likely to pre-emptively strike against the Reapers.

Modifié par tmp7704, 11 février 2010 - 05:07 .

[Lycidas]

tmp7704 wrote...

The geth are machines, and so are the reapers. They do not base decisions on paranoid gut feel without any solid basis -- so if the geth have policy of not only not interfering but to actually avoid organic life there's no reason for Reapers to expect geth suddenly completely reverse their logic.

Yay and beeing machines makes them buddies! Sorry that does not make any sense at all. Letting the Geth live is a risk for the Reapers be it small or big. Why would they take it?

tmp7704 wrote...
More importantly, the reaction of geth themselves should be telling here. They're probably the only species who were in position to actually attack Sovereign rather than let him proceed with his purpose. They didn't. It means for whatever reason they didn't consider his plan to be threat to their own existence, otherwise they'd act simply in self-defense. It means whatever reasoning it was that led them to such stance, they are not likely to pre-emptively strike against the Reapers.

We simply don't know why they did not attack the Sovereign it could be for any reason.
You're just guessing and selling it for the truth...

[tmp7704]

Lycidas wrote...

Yay and beeing machines makes them buddies! Sorry that does not make any sense at all. Letting the Geth live is a risk for the Reapers be it small or big. Why would they take it?

It's not about being buddies, so no wonder it doesn't make sense when you didn't understand the point. Which was if the Geth logic makes them determine that they're best off staying away from organic species, this logic isn't going to change out of sudden and cause them to arrive to different conclusion.

Why would Reapers let them live? Same reason a hunter doesn't eradicate all mushrooms in the forest where he hunts his game.

We simply don't know why they did not attack the Sovereign it could be for any reason.
You're just guessing and selling it for the truth...

The part i'm "selling as truth" is a fact -- the geth did not attack Sovereign even though they knew his purpose. That's not a guess, it actually happened. But people are now expecting them to act completely different... why, exactly? Because it's about their own survival? It was before, too.

[TraverserXR]

you know, in the first Mass Effect, thought they were super annoying. but in ME2, i was happy to see them when i got to fight them again, lol. And adding in Legion was an awesome idea and the back story to the other Geth was epic for me. I think they are gonna do something really cool with the Geth in ME3

[apk117]

This is kind of off-topic, but I love Legion's "expressions" during his conversations (which are also very well done and enjoyable). His face after you ask about the N7 armor is priceless. WTB Legion in ME3!

[The_mango55]

The Reapers are a threat to the Geth. They are not like Geth, legion tells you this himself. If the Reapers succeed, the Geth will be wiped out as well.

Assuming the Reapers are the same purely logical and emotionless beings as the geth (and most AI in Sci-fi) is a mistake. We don't know how their minds are formed but they incoporate significant amounts of organic "essence."

[FunkyFreshKilla]

I don't think it is brain washing at all. They may be sentient, but they are not organic. They do not have brains, but programs. They do not think like us! Legion himself said this when discussing how they think differently. Can't remember the actual example, but basically the true Geth see 2 + 2 = 4. The Heretics see 2 + 2 = 3. Simplified, but basically the same.



This difference in calculations is what makes them different. Well sorry, but 2 + 2 = 4 and that is just the way it is. Reapers are bad and that is just the way it is. So instead of destroying robots I re-programmed their logic to be correct. No brain washing. Just fixed a bug. Sentient or not they are still software.



Akin to if you had a hormonal disorder which caused you to go on a killing rampage. Guess what, I won't kill you, I'll force feed you medicine to correct that problem. On the meds you may very well be a happy productive member of society. If that is the case I made the right decision. If not, I've still got my gun!

[Chrisimo79]

FunkyFreshKilla wrote...

I don't think it is brain washing at all. They may be sentient, but they are not organic. They do not have brains, but programs. They do not think like us! Legion himself said this when discussing how they think differently. Can't remember the actual example, but basically the true Geth see 2 + 2 = 4. The Heretics see 2 + 2 = 3. Simplified, but basically the same.

This difference in calculations is what makes them different. Well sorry, but 2 + 2 = 4 and that is just the way it is. Reapers are bad and that is just the way it is. So instead of destroying robots I re-programmed their logic to be correct. No brain washing. Just fixed a bug. Sentient or not they are still software.

Akin to if you had a hormonal disorder which caused you to go on a killing rampage. Guess what, I won't kill you, I'll force feed you medicine to correct that problem. On the meds you may very well be a happy productive member of society. If that is the case I made the right decision. If not, I've still got my gun!

Legion used the analogy 1 is lesser than 2 for one viewpoint and 2 is lesser than 3 for the other to explain that both viewpoints are not wrong, just different.

[FunkyFreshKilla]

Thanks for the clarification Chrisimo79. In any case if 1 is lesser than 2 equals fight the Reapers and 2 is lesser than 3 equals become pawns, the later is *undesirable* and should be fixed. For the betterment of the Heretics of course.

[tmp7704]

FunkyFreshKilla wrote...

Can't remember the actual example, but basically the true Geth see 2 + 2 = 4. The Heretics see 2 + 2 = 3. Simplified, but basically the same.

This difference in calculations is what makes them different. Well sorry, but 2 + 2 = 4 and that is just the way it is. Reapers are bad and that is just the way it is.

The simplification here skews the Legion's point a bit, though. What Legion says is, the Heretics calculate results in their own way but the outcome isn't clearly "wrong" like in this example, just different. It's more like trying to solve x^2 = 4 and regular Geth calculating x = 2 while the Heretics calculate x = -2.