187 réponses à ce sujet

[Akiada]

NickolasDS wrote...

Explain this then. If say, gay men relationships were implemented, then how would I be able to make a relationship with a female while also making buddies with some of the guys; all without making the guys think I'm bi? I think the dialog system would be much harder to work.

Easy. Bioware could learn to write the goddamn romances better. The whole "I'm nice to you, so I must want to get in your pants" thing is rather irksome.

[withateethuh]

NickolasDS wrote...

Explain this then. If say, gay men relationships were implemented, then how would I be able to make a relationship with a female while also making buddies with some of the guys; all without making the guys think I'm bi? I think the dialog system would be much harder to work.

I believe this is the logic behind the reason that gay romance isn't in the game.

But if you are this distraught by something that is so superficial and is in a freaking video game, then Bioware isn't the one with the issues.

[Lightice_av]

Explain this then. If say, gay men relationships were implemented, then how would I be able to make a relationship with a female while also making buddies with some of the guys; all without making the guys think I'm bi? I think the dialog system would be much harder to work.

Why? There's no problem in playing as a straight woman in either ME1 or ME2, despite of having the option to swing the other way. Nor is there any problem in playing as 100% straight man in Dragon Age: Origins, despite of having a bisexual elf around hitting on you. Nothing forces you to take romance options with a character you don't want to romance. That's like saying that it's annoying that Tali is a romance option because you're not into xenophilic relationships, and just want to be friends with the aliens.



If the gay option opens up in ME3 or DLC I'll never play it, since it does nothing to my interests. I'll still be happy to know that the option is there, because I like all people to have a chance to make Commander Shepard into their own image, regardless of their preferences. I know gay gamers and sympathise with them; I was happy for them when Dragon Age decided to carter to them, and dissapointed when ME2 didn't do the same. It's not always about me and what I want to play; I want other people to have options that they like.

[NickolasDS]

I'm just saying that it's going to take effort to conjure proper situations for such discussions. You have to keep character personalities on the right tone. When characters are constantly going on and off about "oh, I thought you loved me but I guess I was wrong" kind of crap, it destroys personality.

[Lightice_av]

I'm just saying that it's going to take effort to conjure proper situations for such discussions. You have to keep character personalities on the right tone. When characters are constantly going on and off about "oh, I thought you loved me but I guess I was wrong" kind of crap, it destroys personality.

*shrugh*

When I played Dragon Age, I just told Zevran right off the bat that I wasn't interested, and that was that. You only get conversations like you describe if you go to your way to make romance choices in your dialogue, and then back down on them. It may happen if you don't pay attention to what you're going to say, and always pick the positive option, but it's not too difficult to avoid.



You don't see people complaining about this issue when it comes to opposite sex partners, for example if a gamer tries to romance Miranda, but accidentally two-times with Subject Zero - it means they didn't follow the dialogue properly, and they know it. Why is it any different with potential same-sex partners?

[Arik7]

NickolasDS wrote...

Explain this then. If say, gay men relationships were implemented, then how would I be able to make a relationship with a female while also making buddies with some of the guys; all without making the guys think I'm bi? I think the dialog system would be much harder to work.

Jade Empire did not have that problem.  Sky was interested in your male PC only if you are romantically interested in him.   While I appreciate what BW did with Zevran, I'm not asking for male NPCs to throw themselves at you for no reason.  But then again, being nice should never be interpreted as flirting.  The writers should make that destinction more clear in the dialog options.  In DAO, Morrigan accused me of leaving her for a man when I showed her nothing more than friendship.

[Crock-a-duck Enthusiast]

I would tend to agree that given that the female Shepard can be a lesbian (I'm going to agree that asari are just blue ladies) it would be both a service to the game's rpg elements and just fair as well for the male shepard to pursue a homosexual relationship. I'm sure BW is aware of the influence of the glb community in in general and the large demographic of gamers that come from that community. It does seem to be an odd absence from both games. Although, when you compare it to film where the only representation of glb you seem to get is some swishy stereotype then perhaps it's not so unexpected after all. There seems to be a glaring lack of representation for homosexuals, gay men in particular, in modern media. Just keep letting BW and other companies know what you want. If you're vocal enough then the companies will change to consider you as a meaningful demographic and realize that addressing your want helps their bottom line. Considering what we have seen with JE and DA:O we're probably moving in the right direction

Cheers mates,
hope you are better represented in dlc or next time around

Modifié par Crock-a-duck Enthusiast, 30 janvier 2010 - 05:30 .

[NickolasDS]

With all these little nags on relationships and RPG vs shooter, let's just ask Bioware to make ME3 a four disc final fantasy set?

My point was about the effort needed. There will be tons of things to re-work if such relationships were added. Characters would be lost or many new relationships would have to be added. Let's say that, for example, ME2 had gay relationships. So if Jacob or Garrus were bi, how does that fit with character? It doesn't seem like them at all.

I apologiez if that came out condescending. I'm truly sorry. I didn't catch that until just now. My point still stands about already developed characters, versus adding new characters; or having to subtract characters and thus make a lot of people angry at the lack of relationship choices.

Like I said, four disc set Bioware.

Modifié par NickolasDS, 30 janvier 2010 - 05:45 .

[Lightice_av]

My point was about the effort needed. There will be tons of things to re-work if such relationships were added. Characters would be lost or many new relationships would have to be added. Let's say that, for example, ME2 had gay relationships. So it Jacob or Garrus bi? How does that fit with character, doesn't seem like them at all.

The simplest way would undoubtedly be to add a new character, if such DLC was ever added, though I find it improbable at this point. However, if you assume that gay people always act in certain ways, you would be very much mistaken. Lets look at the novel, Mass Effect: Ascension, for example. One of the main characters is Hendel, a badass biotic marine who is completely devoted in protecting an autistic biotic child from Cerberus who would exploit her. Oh, and he's gay. His preference doesn't define his character, or make him any way different than if he was straight. He just happens to prefer men, and that's that.



It doesn't take that great effort to add in a romance subplot, either - in ME1 there are still conversation files that make both Ashley and Kaidan gay options; these were dropped off in the last minute; presumably somebody in the marketing became wierded out by half of the main cast being bi. One or two extra options are hardly that big a deal now that the main cast has doubled in size, I'd say.

[Akiada]

NickolasDS wrote...

With all these little nags on relationships and RPG vs shooter, let's just ask Bioware to make ME3 a four disc final fantasy set?

My point was about the effort needed. There will be tons of things to re-work if such relationships were added. Characters would be lost or many new relationships would have to be added. Let's say that, for example, ME2 had gay relationships. So if Jacob or Garrus were bi, how does that fit with character? It doesn't seem like them at all.

I don't see why it would be a groundbreaking change that would require "characters to be lost", and would work fine as a modified version of the existing romance (ala Liara or Zevran). Additionally, you ask: how does it fit with their character?

How does it not fit? I have not noticed some issue that would absolutely, positively prevent them from being bisexual.

[grumpymooselion]

NickolasDS wrote...

With all these little nags on relationships and RPG vs shooter, let's just ask Bioware to make ME3 a four disc final fantasy set?

I'm not following, having played a few of the Final Fantasy games, none of them have anything like Dragon Age, Mass Effect 1/2, Jade Empire or other games with Relationships that depend on your actions. Even the Persona games had more relationship depth than a Final Fantasy game, and I found those games fairly . . . hollow.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 30 janvier 2010 - 05:43 .

[Arik7]

NickolasDS wrote...

With all these little nags on relationships and RPG vs shooter, let's just ask Bioware to make ME3 a four disc final fantasy set?

My point was about the effort needed. There will be tons of things to re-work if such relationships were added. Characters would be lost or many new relationships would have to be added. Let's say that, for example, ME2 had gay relationships. So it Jacob or Garrus bi? How does that fit with character, doesn't seem like them at all.

It was actually out of character for Garrus to be interested only in FemShep, considering that his attraction to Shepard was platonic rather than physical.

Jacob looks and behaves like some black gay guys I know...

Gay people are not aliens.  They don't have to behave differently to be realistc.

[malkuth74]

Its all about marketing.   If they did include gay type themes in the games then you can count on religious groups trying to ban the game... And it would be banned in some countries easy.  So the fact is that having gay male love in a game is not worth the few % of the population on the planet that would enjoy something like that, just to loose a much larger % of population that does not want to see that. 

Simple marketing and economics its nothing personal.  Its just the way it is.

[Eshaye]

malkuth74 wrote...

Its all about marketing.   If they did include gay type themes in the games then you can count on religious groups trying to ban the game...

Except it's already been done in their other games.... So no, I don't think that's it. 

[Lightice_av]

Simple marketing and economics its nothing personal. Its just the way it is.

Possibly, but not very sound marketing. A gay option didn't prevent Dragon Age from being the most popular RPG and one of the most popular games of 2009, nor did it get banned in any country with significant market for it. Hell, it didn't even create a big fuss - the number of complainers was surprisingly low.



And as for the religious groups, remember the controversy surrounding ME1? It actually brought it more publicity and more sales than it took away, and that tends to be the case with controversies in general.



The marketing decision that was made was probably less about publicity, and more about not considering gay gamers (or women who want to see M/M action) a significant enough target audience to carter. Threads like this are being made to refute this opinion.

[jpetrey123]

ill pass on that gay ****, id rather have a cruise with all the ****ots, and sink the boat. just rid the world of the ****s

[Arik7]

malkuth74 wrote...

Its all about marketing.   If they did include gay type themes in the games then you can count on religious groups trying to ban the game... And it would be banned in some countries easy.  So the fact is that having gay male love in a game is not worth the few % of the population on the planet that would enjoy something like that, just to loose a much larger % of population that does not want to see that. 

Simple marketing and economics its nothing personal.  Its just the way it is.

Where did the religious groups go when DAO came out?   Which countries have banned DAO?   What percentage of the population did DAO lose?

[NickolasDS]

Point about the FF reference was data material. Big games that people are wanting from ME are going to cost more than two discs. That's if everyone's nags were accepted. I mean, come on, ME2 is two discs and people still want more. Doesn't that say something?



As for the gay relationships. I didn't just go through what I did with Garrus to find out he is gay in ME2. When it comes down to relationships, it's something that should be understood as soon as possible, especially since ME isn't real life, time and space are very costly. So yea, you're right about importing a new character. However, if you're planning for this character to be a main one, then you might want to consider the space it'll take. Also the time needed to develop the character properly without making him seem like a simple sex toy.

[hbk0]

Just quickly point out:



Why is Bioware obligated to put homosexual relationship in the game? I mean, come'n, think of it, it's their product, if they decide not to put it in the game, then it won't be in the game.

[Lethys1]

Bioware simply has yet to make a homosexual character that can be recruited. In DA:O there was Zevran, but he kind of floated in all directions.



I could see there being another Zevran in ME3, but I doubt that Bioware will create a male romance character that can only be romanced by men. But who knows.

[Arik7]

Just quickly point out: Did anyone here state that Bioware is obligated to do anything? They could make a game about a KKK member if they wanted to....

[malkuth74]

Well they must of been doing a good job on hiding the gay love in DAO I had no idea it was in the game. Now is it Male vs Male love in Dragon AGe or Female Vs Female?



For some strange reason, the female gay love seems more accepted in todays world then Male And Male.

[Lightice_av]

Point about the FF reference was data material. Big games that people are wanting from ME are going to cost more than two discs. That's if everyone's nags were accepted. I mean, come on, ME2 is two discs and people still want more. Doesn't that say something?

ME2 doesn't fill the two disks to the brim, and really, everybody's asking for more content, and I would consider that a good thing; the more quality content, the better, even if it costs a few dollars more. But the price of ME2 didn't increase from having more content than ME1, did it?

Why is Bioware obligated to put homosexual relationship in the game? I mean, come'n, think of it, it's their product, if they decide not to put it in the game, then it won't be in the game.

Because unlike they have surmised, the number of gay people who want to play the game with a gay character is significant enough to be worth listening to. But in the principle, the reason why the option should be there is because Bioware markets the Mass Effect franchise as your personal story where you may shape Commander Shepard into the person you want him/her to be. By removing a significant possible choice, this advertisment becomes less than truthful. 

Well they must of been doing a good job on hiding the gay love in DAO I had no idea it was in the game. Now is it Male vs Male love in Dragon AGe or Female Vs Female?

Both. DAO offers Zevran, a male bisexual elf, and Leliana, a female bisexual human. Zevran is promiscuous and campy, though he has hidden dimensions like all the party-members in the game, while Leliana is kind and deeply religious. Neither make it a secret that they go both ways, regardless of by which gender you romance them.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 30 janvier 2010 - 06:12 .

[Arik7]

Because unlike they have surmised, the number of gay people who want to play the game with a gay character is significant enough to be worth listening to. But in the principle, the reason why the option should be there is because Bioware markets the Mass Effect franchise as your personal story where you may shape Commander Shepard into the person you want him/her to be. By removing a significant possible choice, this advertisment becomes less than truthful.

THIS.

[Wittand25]

hbk0 wrote...

Just quickly point out:

Why is Bioware obligated to put homosexual relationship in the game? I mean, come'n, think of it, it's their product, if they decide not to put it in the game, then it won't be in the game.

They are not, but threads like this show that by not including them they alienate a bigger share of their audience then they thought and to show them that putting in such options would meet more support then opposition.