56 réponses à ce sujet

[Isaantia]

Plot device to show that Cerberus just can't be trusted? I'm going with that. Even those that save you can't be trusted.



When my femShep woke up the 1st time I was all excited - OMG GORIM.



But alas, not to be so.

[Wintermist]

If the plan was to kill Shepard, he could have done it in so many easy ways.



First, make sure something goes to hell with Shepard. Check.

Start havoc with the Mechs. Check.

Make sure you escape. Check.



He failed. Perhaps he's not to blame actually. Someone as smart as him would have put a delayed virus instead of starting a spartan war while he was still on it.

[DreVan]

He was paid by the shadow broker (who is working for the collectors) to prevent shepard's recovery and scuttle the station.

[Wintermist]

DreVan wrote...

He was paid by the shadow broker (who is working for the collectors) to prevent shepard's recovery and scuttle the station.

It's a poor way to discuss stating theories like they are facts without evidence.

[Tyken132]

The only hint I saw was that maradia was a complete b*tch to him. That doesn't seem like a good enough motive unless he just decided to go postal, then agian she killed him before you got a chance to question him.

[JudgeQwerty]

WHY would you pay off the guy RIGHT THERE IN THE ROOM with Sephard to jury rig a mech army when he could just perform any number of far more subtle medical assassinations, aside from just, you know, not doing his job properly? I know its an action game and you need stuff to shoot at, but really, that's just absurd.

[Schneidend]

Isaantia wrote...

Plot device to show that Cerberus just can't be trusted? I'm going with that. Even those that save you can't be trusted.

When my femShep woke up the 1st time I was all excited - OMG GORIM.

But alas, not to be so.

I think Steve Blum voices Grunt as well, so there's your Gorim.

Also, Cerberus can totally be trusted. It becomes fairly obvious that the Lazarus cell is composed of good people, and that the cells you fought in ME1 just went mad with power and autonomy.

Modifié par Schneidend, 30 janvier 2010 - 05:31 .

[Wintermist]

My guess is still that he either lost it, and messed up. Or that someone else was actually pulling the strings on this one, and he got blamed for it by Miranda. They obviously didn't care much for eachother.

[JudgeQwerty]

Schneidend wrote...

Isaantia wrote...

Plot device to show that Cerberus just can't be trusted? I'm going with that. Even those that save you can't be trusted.

When my femShep woke up the 1st time I was all excited - OMG GORIM.

But alas, not to be so.

I think Steve Blum voices Grunt as well, so there's your Gorim.

Also, Cerberus can totally be trusted. It becomes fairly obvious that the Lazarus cell is composed of good people, and that the cells you fought in ME1 just went mad with power and autonomy.

*coughs* You mean every cell that you weren't personally running?

[Jax Sparrow]

maybe there is more to this story that might come out in a DLC, expansion, or even in ME3? Though I had the impression he was paid off by the collectors. Sure it is incredibly silly in the head to work for the Collectors knowing what Cerberus knows but then so is pitting yourself up against our Sheppard. Scientists can be myopic.

[SkywardDescent]

He was jealous of Miranda, wanted her out of the picture and to put himself in charge.

[SnowHeart1]

JudgeQwerty wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

I think Steve Blum voices Grunt as well, so there's your Gorim.

Also, Cerberus can totally be trusted. It becomes fairly obvious that the Lazarus cell is composed of good people, and that the cells you fought in ME1 just went mad with power and autonomy.

*coughs* You mean every cell that you weren't personally running?

For lack of a better phrase, I find the "Cerberus-apologists" somewhat amusing.  I remember a thread before ME2 was released that people who were in love with Miranda swore up and down she would know nothing about the Cerberus cells from ME1.  Well, we learn that, in fact, she did know about them... and defends their work.  Only with respect to Jack's facility does she profess ignorance, but then when you read the after-mission report she says it was alarming that the original clean-up teams failed to remove all the evidence.

I will grant the writers credit that they offered enough in ME2 to make working for Cerberus palatable... but let's be clear.  Players are given enough material to decide that it is an "ends justify the means" situation, or they can say, "No, the ends don't justify the means and Cerberus still sucks."  However, there really isn't anything that says "Cerberus is a morally upright organization with just a couple of rogue elements."    They weren't rogue elements at all.

[Satanic Hamster]

My bet?



He didn't betray Cerberus. He was acting under the Elusive Jerk's orders the entire time. The whole thing was a way to force Shepard to trust and work with Cerebus.



_________________

Currently listening to Joe Walsh's the Best of

[Schneidend]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

For lack of a better phrase, I find the "Cerberus-apologists" somewhat amusing.  I remember a thread before ME2 was released that people who were in love with Miranda swore up and down she would know nothing about the Cerberus cells from ME1.  Well, we learn that, in fact, she did know about them... and defends their work.  Only with respect to Jack's facility does she profess ignorance, but then when you read the after-mission report she says it was alarming that the original clean-up teams failed to remove all the evidence.

I will grant the writers credit that they offered enough in ME2 to make working for Cerberus palatable... but let's be clear.  Players are given enough material to decide that it is an "ends justify the means" situation, or they can say, "No, the ends don't justify the means and Cerberus still sucks."  However, there really isn't anything that says "Cerberus is a morally upright organization with just a couple of rogue elements."    They weren't rogue elements at all.

I think it's very clear from Jack's loyalty mission that these cells were very much rogue elements. Whether or not you choose to believe that is a matter of perception. I've never claimed Cerberus was "morally upright," but there are many people within it attempting to do actually do the right thing instead of just using "the ends justify the means" as an excuse to do whatever you want.

[Elessie]

Yeah I don't buy the whole rogue cells excuse. If you speak to EDI after her blocks are removed she says that a limited number of cells work on projects at once (I think she said 12 currently) because the Illusive Man likes to personally oversee them all.

[Schneidend]

Elessie wrote...

Yeah I don't buy the whole rogue cells excuse. If you speak to EDI after her blocks are removed she says that a limited number of cells work on projects at once (I think she said 12 currently) because the Illusive Man likes to personally oversee them all.

How can it be an excuse if it happened multiple times? The cells fought in ME1 were clearly out of control, and don't fit the Cerberus MO after Illusive Man's take-over. The codex even states that after Cerberus leadership changed, the group devoted itself more to accumulating resources, firepower, and personnel than unlawful experimentation.

[packardbell]

He was willing to die for the cause?



He did seem to resent Miranda.

[thisisme8]

My theory:

First, he was a genius. Most geniuses in history have also been slightly crazy and/or paranoid. Just look at Manuel from ME1.

Second, he didn't feel like he was getting the proper recognition from someone he felt was inferior intellectually, yet still admired (Miranda). He had to know she was also a medical/scientific wonder.

Third, he didn't try to kill Shepard, only sabotage the station/project.

It all adds up to a disgruntled worker trying to "show them," or "prove I'm invaluable."

Modifié par thisisme8, 30 janvier 2010 - 07:12 .

[SnowHeart1]

Schneidend wrote...

I think it's very clear from Jack's loyalty mission that these cells were very much rogue elements. Whether or not you choose to believe that is a matter of perception. I've never claimed Cerberus was "morally upright," but there are many people within it attempting to do actually do the right thing instead of just using "the ends justify the means" as an excuse to do whatever you want.

Some things are just a matter of perception, and I would agree the facility with Jack's loyalty mission comes down to that, but the ME1 cells do not.  If you talk with Miranda in her office, eventually you'll be able to talk about your experience with Cerberus in the past and specifically those missions.  She tells you she knew about them, and defends their work.  E.g., "The husks weren't alive, the rachni couldn't reproduce, and the creepers weren't sentient..." or something to that effect.  She totally knew about and defended the work.  The only point that was ambigious was what happened to Kohoku, because Shep never specifically mentions it.  Unless I'm completely forgetting something that you can point me to, there is nothing indicated they were rogue.

[Elessie]

Schneidend wrote...

Elessie wrote...

Yeah I don't buy the whole rogue cells excuse. If you speak to EDI after her blocks are removed she says that a limited number of cells work on projects at once (I think she said 12 currently) because the Illusive Man likes to personally oversee them all.

How can it be an excuse if it happened multiple times? The cells fought in ME1 were clearly out of control, and don't fit the Cerberus MO after Illusive Man's take-over. The codex even states that after Cerberus leadership changed, the group devoted itself more to accumulating resources, firepower, and personnel than unlawful experimentation.

Well I haven't read the books so I don't know if there's proof in there.  But I didn't take the codex entry that says "Counterterror experts speculate Cerberus may have changed leadership" to mean that it definitely did.  I figured the "recent shift to stockpiling ships, agents and weapons" was because he's the only person taking the threat of the reapers seriously.

[JudgeQwerty]

Schneidend wrote...

Elessie wrote...

Yeah I don't buy the whole rogue cells excuse. If you speak to EDI after her blocks are removed she says that a limited number of cells work on projects at once (I think she said 12 currently) because the Illusive Man likes to personally oversee them all.

How can it be an excuse if it happened multiple times? The cells fought in ME1 were clearly out of control, and don't fit the Cerberus MO after Illusive Man's take-over. The codex even states that after Cerberus leadership changed, the group devoted itself more to accumulating resources, firepower, and personnel than unlawful experimentation.

Don't trust the Codex. It's based on public knowledge, not the truth.

[JudgeQwerty]

I don't think Cerberus changed leadership, simply that TIM is now preparing for the Reapers instead of idly funding mad science experiements to see what happens. On Jack's loyalty mission, his report reveals he was running Cerberus at the time.

[Schneidend]

SnowHeart1 wrote...
Some things are just a matter of perception, and I would agree the facility with Jack's loyalty mission comes down to that, but the ME1 cells do not.  If you talk with Miranda in her office, eventually you'll be able to talk about your experience with Cerberus in the past and specifically those missions.  She tells you she knew about them, and defends their work.  E.g., "The husks weren't alive, the rachni couldn't reproduce, and the creepers weren't sentient..." or something to that effect.  She totally knew about and defended the work.  The only point that was ambigious was what happened to Kohoku, because Shep never specifically mentions it.  Unless I'm completely forgetting something that you can point me to, there is nothing indicated they were rogue.

Well, I was actually referring to the cell conducting thresher maw experiments. I remember that conversation, and I can't really argue her reasoning. Those experiments only accidently got people killed. It's not like Cerberus unleashed them on hapless citizens on purpose. Any argument regarding these cells is really just what you consider "okay" to use as a weapon.

Many would argue that cheap, organic shock troops are unacceptable merely on the basis that they are living things of a sort, or abominable technology. I don't like them much, either, but I'd merely consider them not in the bounds of fairplay rather than morally reprehensible. Completely expendable legions would lead to endless, meaningless proxy battles that corrupt the swift decisiveness of war and would make up for the lack of soldier deaths in the massive collateral damage and civilian deaths.

We're already seeing this today, in a way, with terrorist cells who don't ever surrender because their lives are expendable and they have no vital territory to take. They can't be defeated in the conventional sense, and therefore never surrender.