23 réponses à ce sujet

[mickiluscheez]

Ok so first and foremost this topic is for those who have completed both games so if you have not you will see major spoilers that may ruin your gameplay experience, you have been warned.

So after having beat the game I was wondering everyone elses thought and theories on what's going on in the game and how everything came to be. Here's what we know for sure: the collector's DNA matches that of the Protheans so the collectors are in some way or another Prothean. Also Harbinger who was controling the collectors general by some means or another and in turn controlling many of the collectors themselves throughout the game as well appeared to be a Reaper. The Reaper being created was in the image of a human, and apparently the Reapers are created through a means of genocide capturing the essence of life from those sacraficed to create it.

Now here's where it's fairly indefinite, and where I am wondering what others think, have theory's on, or if maybe someone can even show where they give definite answers I missed:

1) Do you think the Protheans have always been the chitin type insectiods they appeared to be as collectors, or do you agree with EDI's theory about the Reapers twisting them into those creatures in a manner similar to human husk's.

2) If EDI's theory about Reapers being created in the image of the race they use to imbue them with life, is true, why were all the Reaper's who were shown preparing for war at the games end all shaped like Sovereign and Harbinger. Or is it possible the reapers only created a human Reaper as a means to prepare for their coming and that's not the norm?

3) Ok now this is my theory which may very well be far fetched but just something I noticed. Saren who in the first game had obviously been very extensively rebuilt with Geth technology has the same type of eyes as the Illusive Man, do you think the Illusive Man himself has been rebuilt like Saren and Shepard, and do you think he was at one point in league, or may still be in league with the Reapers, and is simply manipulating Shepard? Also could this be how he aquired the technology to rebuilt Shepard as well?

4) Lastly somthing else I noticed is that at the games end the star the Illusive Man is located near has changed color, do you think this is simply something Bioware did for effect, or could it be that the Illusive Man is actually located near the dying star in the Quarian's system? As it was stated the Quarian's star was speedily and unaturally dying

Also feel free to share any of your own thoguhts and theory's.

Modifié par mickiluscheez, 30 janvier 2010 - 05:20 .

[JasonPogo]

1) I think that is is something the Reapers did to them. Since we see at the citidel the Keepers are bug like too. Probably something to do with how they bioenginer them.



2) They do all look slightly diferent but yes all are mostly the same squid look. I don't know what to think on this.



3) No he is a jerk but I don't think he has anything to do with the Reapers,



4) I think he is the one killing that very star. It is something he would do. If you had the power to kill the star supporting the life of a peoples home planet they would never go to war with you. So in the IM's eyes mankind wins when everyone is scared he will kill their sun.

[mickiluscheez]

JasonPogo that's a very good point for #4, I didn't even think that maybe he was killing the Quarian star on purpose, maybe to somehow destroy the Geth who now inhabit that star system.

Modifié par mickiluscheez, 30 janvier 2010 - 05:22 .

[gobier182]

1) Yes, it is stated. I believe that they were because of the huge difference in looks from the first game's statues of them, the vivid visions, and seeing the vivid visions along with the altered protheans.



2) They don't look different from the ones that are coming. I think what the collectors were doing something that maybe would send chills down the sentient races backsides. Granted how the **** would they get that thing from planet to planet and from star system to star system.



3) He did not, they're just studying Reaper technology. Remember, they did have a station studying the thing.



4) It is possible, but unlikely. Instead it was meant just to be like the ending in the first game. Where if you're paragon or renegade the color of the background changes. That is possible too, but unlikely. The Illusive Man is not going to commit genocide if it will help insure humanity's survival against the Reapers.



I was somewhat right that the collectors were part of the ancient prothean race. I was wrong about in what manner they were the collectors. Yet, I was excited to hear that they were. Anyways, the next game will probably just be an all out war. Though, I'm wondering for how many millenias the Reapers have been doing this for. If you look at the fleet, it's so massive it seems illogical they could be doing this for less than 20 billenia.



Sadly, the only problem is that Sovereign lied. We are needed as resources. So it was either Bioware's mistake, EA stepped in and made this mistake, or Bioware always planned this which goes back to the first part of that mistake.

[Jetfire99]

1) I think EDI was right the Collectors were very twisted from what they were. Remeber we saw statues of the Prottians on their last world. The build of the bodies don't match up.



2) It dpends we only saw a portion of the fleet. Remeber the larger the population of a victem race the more new reapers can be made from using them as raw materials. Also they may have the ture form in the core of the ships and each ship's a standard design. Or their version of body armor.



3) He's a evil Xenophobic bastard but he's no reaper pawn.



4) Also did you notice several other stars were suffering the same effect i wonder if the Reapers have something to do with it?



Finally on how long the Reapers been at it? The dead reaper you get the IFF from is 37 million years old so at least that long. Likely even longer.

[Shady314]

gobier182 wrote...
Sadly, the only problem is that Sovereign lied. We are needed as resources. So it was either Bioware's mistake, EA stepped in and made this mistake, or Bioware always planned this which goes back to the first part of that mistake.

Is Sovereign not allowed to lie? Do you tell your enemies the whole truth and nothing but when THEY ask?

The third option you are looking for is that this is something new. The Reaper's do not normally have Collector's do this. They don't NEED us for resources but they CAN use us if they so desire. We already knew this from indoctrination and the Keepers.

EDIT: It's not just EDI that tells you about them. Don't forget Mordin's analysis.

Modifié par Shady314, 31 janvier 2010 - 05:40 .

[LOST_PriNcEsS_]

1) I don't know -- look at Husks, for example. They're not human, but they resemble humanoid form, but they are largely changed. Protheans probably have just as many similarities as differences to the Collectors -- besides, they have had 50k years to evolve from Prothean to Collector.



2) I think the current Reapers from the ending are all from Sovereign's "generation" if you will. Maybe they feel vulnerable, they're dwindling, that's why they want to build a crazy super Reaper. They choose humans as a viable choice because they have genetic diversity (according to Mordin) and have defeated a Reaper. (Know thy enemy). I believe that by taking a human's genetics in the most pure form and imbuing it with cybernetic material that it would just naturally take a human shape.



3) I'm torn about this. It seems TIM agenda is too pro-human for him to be a Reaper or anything other than a crazy, overzealous, humanitarian nut job. Maybe the eyes were just something as simple as Bioware making him appear superior or intimidating in some fashion. Maybe they are meant to be more sinister, like Sovereign indoctrinating implants, but maybe we're looking into it too much. I thought TIM was in that recent ME novel, maybe someone can shed some light on this?



4) The star at the end, for me, felt like a throwback to the ending of ME1 after you deal with the Council, Shepard is standing in front of a red or blue star/planet looking all badass. TIM's star is both red and blue until the end of the game it picks on color based on your Paragon/Renegade status and really sets a sort of mood.

[gobier182]

Shady314 wrote...

gobier182 wrote...
Sadly, the only problem is that Sovereign lied. We are needed as resources. So it was either Bioware's mistake, EA stepped in and made this mistake, or Bioware always planned this which goes back to the first part of that mistake.

Is Sovereign not allowed to lie? Do you tell your enemies the whole truth and nothing but when THEY ask?

The third option you are looking for is that this is something new. The Reaper's do not normally have Collector's do this. They don't NEED us for resources but they CAN use us if they so desire. We already knew this from indoctrination and the Keepers.

EDIT: It's not just EDI that tells you about them. Don't forget Mordin's analysis.

I don't forget. Sovereign was not afraid of us. He was cocky, but not afraid. He had been doing this for how long, no one knows. My opinion is still just. If unafraid by the opponent, why lie? There is no need to if you believe without a doubt that you will win.

It makes the enemy that much more fearful.

[luet1991]

1) The Protheans DNA for some reason had a mutation that would not allow the Reapers to use them to build new Reapers. Instead, they engineered them to meet their needs in a different way. Also, if you'll notice, the Collector General bears a wicked resemblence to the Reaper 'Harbinger'. Perhaps, since they could not become Reapers, the Reapers engineered them to also look like a organic form of the Reapers. I mean why go to the lengths of changing the way a race looks if you can just indoctrinate them to your will? It makes logical sense for the Reapers to bend the race that nearly destroyed them to their image.



2) Ok, here's the thing. I believe the Reapers only do this if they find a race that can challenge them. So during a cycle, they may wipe out all life without a problem, and not need to create any more reapers since they have a **** ton already. Now, if they stumble into a cycle where a race can destroy a Reaper and even stand a chance against them in the war, THEN they capture the race and attempt to steal that power for themselves by turning them into Reapers. Makes plenty of sense, yea?



3) Here's some logic to think about. IF TIM was being controlled by a Reaper, why the **** would they bring back Shepard with his morale unchanged? Also, why would they send him to save colonies, steal parts from a Reaper, succesfully enter the Omega 4 relay, and even order him to destroy the collector base? Course, at the end, they want him to just capture it, but why destroy the race they were using to capture humans? The entire way through, the Reaper 'Harbinger' is trying to stop you. No, TIM is not controlled by a Reaper, he just has a few trillion credits at his disposal, so he got brand new eyes instead of Lasik.



4) No, the star is blue if you choose the Paragon option, but red if you choose the Renegade option. It's merely a little detail Bioware stuck in there to be cool, and it definitely got the job done.

[DrowNoble]

mickiluscheez wrote...

Ok so first and foremost this topic is for those who have completed both games so if you have not you will see major spoilers that may ruin your gameplay experience, you have been warned.

So after having beat the game I was wondering everyone elses thought and theories on what's going on in the game and how everything came to be. Here's what we know for sure: the collector's DNA matches that of the Protheans so the collectors are in some way or another Prothean. Also Harbinger who was controling the collectors general by some means or another and in turn controlling many of the collectors themselves throughout the game as well appeared to be a Reaper. The Reaper being created was in the image of a human, and apparently the Reapers are created through a means of genocide capturing the essence of life from those sacraficed to create it.

Now here's where it's fairly indefinite, and where I am wondering what others think, have theory's on, or if maybe someone can even show where they give definite answers I missed:

1) Do you think the Protheans have always been the chitin type insectiods they appeared to be as collectors, or do you agree with EDI's theory about the Reapers twisting them into those creatures in a manner similar to human husk's.

2) If EDI's theory about Reapers being created in the image of the race they use to imbue them with life, is true, why were all the Reaper's who were shown preparing for war at the games end all shaped like Sovereign and Harbinger. Or is it possible the reapers only created a human Reaper as a means to prepare for their coming and that's not the norm?

3) Ok now this is my theory which may very well be far fetched but just something I noticed. Saren who in the first game had obviously been very extensively rebuilt with Geth technology has the same type of eyes as the Illusive Man, do you think the Illusive Man himself has been rebuilt like Saren and Shepard, and do you think he was at one point in league, or may still be in league with the Reapers, and is simply manipulating Shepard? Also could this be how he aquired the technology to rebuilt Shepard as well?

4) Lastly somthing else I noticed is that at the games end the star the Illusive Man is located near has changed color, do you think this is simply something Bioware did for effect, or could it be that the Illusive Man is actually located near the dying star in the Quarian's system? As it was stated the Quarian's star was speedily and unaturally dying

Also feel free to share any of your own thoguhts and theory's.

1.  It's implied in the game that the Collectors were altered by the Reapers to be how they are now.  We don't know what the protheans looked like back then, but they didn't look like they did NOW.

2.  I think the Reapers that are in Dark Space are the older ones.  Sovereign was the vanguard sent ahead to summon them in via the Citadel Relay.  Since they were last here around 50,000 years ago they wouldn't have changed since that time.  Early life on Earth were forms of crustaceans, so it could be that some time WAY in the past some form of crustacean life was absorbed into a Reaper.  The final ending of them heading towards us was implied from ME1, at the end of the 1st game Shephard says "the Reapers are still out there".

3.  I think Saren and Illusive Man just have cybernetics.  In ME1 I assumed it was some modification by geth or Sovereign, but in ME2 it's implied that cybernetics are more commonly used.

4.  I think the star at the end of the game changes color based on  your moral choices.  Blue star for Paragon and Red for Renegade.

[Jetfire99]

We do know what the protheans look like. There are statues of them on Ilos. >.>

[Aradin56]

1) As stated by others previously, I stand by the idea that the Protheans were changed by the Reapers to suit their purposes.

2) EDI can only make an educated guess at the moment, so what she says doesn't actually have to hold water. In their current form, Reapers just look like a spacecraft/giant face, nothing truly that menacing. Taking an actual form such as a giant human would scare people far better, so it would make since that they experimented on this. With what Commander Shepard did, it is not suprising that they decided on taking a Human form. Afterall, with the information we have, no other race that came before the ones now really put up a fight, where as Shepard prevented Sovereign from activating the Reaper invasion. Also, since Reapers are machines, theres no naturally occuring physical evolution, they have stayed the same for a millenia. Change is good, and if you want to appear to be a god, what better than the form of giant sapient being compared to just that of a ship?

3) The Illusive Man had his body modified in many ways to become "perfect". It wouldn't be surpising if he replaced his eyes with syntetic ones that have different functions other than sight. Afterall, we have never seen anything from his Point of View. I believe they are just modified eyes for the purpose of becoming perfect, giving him sight that others dont have.

4) He is without a doubt the richest man in the galaxy, as well as the most powerful. The color change was just a little thing BioWare put in there as more variation. If you could go anywhere and do anything, life would get boring. However, how often can you get a front row seat to watch as star dies?  I think that would be a pretty cool thing to experience.

[Neoskeptic]

My theory on the reapers:

The 50,000 year cycle is the reaper reproductive cycle. The collectors were actually produced by Harbinger to facilitate the birth of a new reaper based on human DNA, which looks like the only species badass enough to kill one of them, so assimilate their badassery into the reaper race. They'd assimilate other races... maybe. but I guess 50,000 years is the right "ripeness" of sentient species for a new batch of reapers.

If the Illusive man is actually a reaper agent... that means he intentionally rebuilt shepherd to get captured at the station, he didn't count on you being so damn good. My take on it is that after the reaper is finished, a dominant personality has to be installed... which was supposed to be you. Take into account what the general sometimes says when he fights you... he is "forced" to destroy you, which means he wants you in one piece for some reason.

Which would explain why the Illusive man wanted your personality intact.

Maybe the first reapers allowed themselves to be assimilated then decided that it would be good to do it repeatedly to everyone else.

Modifié par Neoskeptic, 09 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[Tahleron1]

The Vanguard wakes up periodically to check on the stages of development of the galaxies races, and when it determines they have advanced enough, it triggers the citadel and the extinction begins anew.



They already covered that part in mass effect 1

[samusfan]

2) There is a concept drawing of the Human-Reaper that shows the humanoid form sort of resting inside the crustacean-like outer part, kind of like it's part of the ship itself. I don't really get this whole part myself though. It definitely wasn't explained well enough (or at all) to understand it.



Or it could be that the Human-Reaper was completely different for them and was meant to be something that could walk around on planets like a giant mech type thing and kick some ass in a ground war scenario.



Who knows.

[Nialos]

Neoskeptic wrote...

My theory on the reapers:

The 50,000 year cycle is the reaper reproductive cycle. The collectors were actually produced by Harbinger to facilitate the birth of a new reaper based on human DNA, which looks like the only species badass enough to kill one of them, so assimilate their badassery into the reaper race. They'd assimilate other races... maybe. but I guess 50,000 years is the right "ripeness" of sentient species for a new batch of reapers.

If the Illusive man is actually a reaper agent... that means he intentionally rebuilt shepherd to get captured at the station, he didn't count on you being so damn good. My take on it is that after the reaper is finished, a dominant personality has to be installed... which was supposed to be you. Take into account what the general sometimes says when he fights you... he is "forced" to destroy you, which means he wants you in one piece for some reason.

Which would explain why the Illusive man wanted your personality intact.

Maybe the first reapers allowed themselves to be assimilated then decided that it would be good to do it repeatedly to everyone else.

I think their fascination with Shepard, and taking him alive if possible, stems from the fact that he's an unknown. This one organic has defied a cycle that has gone on for millions of years. They probably want him alive to see what, exactly, enables this. Is he a genetic anomaly? Or just one driven bastard? The very fact that he defies Reaper logic, which transcends our own, is enough to make an impact on them.

Could that mean a dominant personality is needed to operate a Reaper? Who's to say? I think we'd need to fully understand what the genetic material is really needed for.

[Netzach]

 1) I agree with EDI.Collectors has been around before Protheans, all species who are not suitable to become a Reaper are turned into collectors.

2) Because it's a "shell". First there is the body of the species and then they made a shell on the reaper to be reaper-a-like. Some parts are hidden inside that shell but the "head" or the "eyes" stays out of the shell.

3) I dont think TIM is some weird ultra-bad guy. He is human, with biotic implants to improve his body. We saw the same in the renegade shepard eyes but in other color. TIM as a reaper puppet make no sense at all because the Collectors wanted Shepard (Mass Effect: Redemption), why would TIM "rebuild" Shepard only to give him to the Collectors? They could "rebuild" Shepard by themselves...

4) Bioware did it for effect. Also could be a dying star but not the quarian systema, there a lot of dying stars out there... If that the case, dark matter is involved of course. Why? I dont fraking know.

[geertmans]

Neoskeptic wrote...

My theory on the reapers:

The 50,000 year cycle is the reaper reproductive cycle. The collectors were actually produced by Harbinger to facilitate the birth of a new reaper based on human DNA, which looks like the only species badass enough to kill one of them, so assimilate their badassery into the reaper race. They'd assimilate other races... maybe. but I guess 50,000 years is the right "ripeness" of sentient species for a new batch of reapers.

If the Illusive man is actually a reaper agent... that means he intentionally rebuilt shepherd to get captured at the station, he didn't count on you being so damn good. My take on it is that after the reaper is finished, a dominant personality has to be installed... which was supposed to be you. Take into account what the general sometimes says when he fights you... he is "forced" to destroy you, which means he wants you in one piece for some reason.

Which would explain why the Illusive man wanted your personality intact.

Maybe the first reapers allowed themselves to be assimilated then decided that it would be good to do it repeatedly to everyone else.

Even though this raises some strange questions I actually support this theory. I really think there's more to the IM than just the rogue pro-human guy. Something doesn't fit.

[Koyote 42]

My theory is that the Reapers harvest the genetic life of a particular species, then recreate said species into a Reaper mechanical construct like we saw at the end of ME2, then that form is entombed into the Reaper ship form that we are all familiar with.



I have another theory as well. I think that a rogue Reaper may have created humanity to help break this cycle of oblivion.

[Nialos]

Koyote 42 wrote...

My theory is that the Reapers harvest the genetic life of a particular species, then recreate said species into a Reaper mechanical construct like we saw at the end of ME2, then that form is entombed into the Reaper ship form that we are all familiar with.

I have another theory as well. I think that a rogue Reaper may have created humanity to help break this cycle of oblivion.

That or the 'Angel of Light' that's hinted in ME1 played a role in it... boy, I hope not.

[Neoskeptic]

Koyote 42 wrote...

My theory is that the Reapers harvest the genetic life of a particular species, then recreate said species into a Reaper mechanical construct like we saw at the end of ME2, then that form is entombed into the Reaper ship form that we are all familiar with.

Sounds about right, based on what we see at the end of ME2. maybe they even recreate individual personalities, kinda like legion, except we're talking about millions of personas inside the reaper. "We are each a nation"

[RequiemValorum]

There is one species that displays many of the traits of current generation Reapers, and that's the Ithorian. It uses a form of indoctrination and even resembles the reapers, especially sovereign. It wouldn't surprise me if the one on Feros was one that managed to escape their extinction cycle.

[kaotician]

RequiemValorum wrote...

There is one species that displays many of the traits of current generation Reapers, and that's the Ithorian. It uses a form of indoctrination and even resembles the reapers, especially sovereign. It wouldn't surprise me if the one on Feros was one that managed to escape their extinction cycle.

I've been thinking along these lines too, as expressed in other threads. I can see how the Thorian may well be 'the one that got away' from the last Reaping/Ascension, but not just it. Consider too the Rachni, and their ability to control a dead/near death body and bend it to their will - just like Sovereign, with Saren at the end, and of course like Harbinger too and the Protheans.

I'm starting to form a view, and it is this; because of the existence of the Mass Relays, and the technology they use, and because the story states several times that the pre-existence of superior technologies drives those who discover them down new paths of discovery ie Element Zero, the Reapers effectively 'funnel' all the races who acheive a certain level of technological prowess in the first place ie interstellar travel (rather like the monolith in 2001, being deliberately placed on the moon), those races then end up pursuing paths of logic and technology already pre-determined by the Reaper Relay technology. These new races do not, therefore, really make new discoveries, they are following a sweet trail laid with careful precision by the Reapers.

To what end? It is this: In so doing, those most succesful at adapting to and adapting from found Reaper technology must be more 'Reaper-like' by natural disposition - indeed, we see this 'Reaper-like' tendency crop up time after time after time across the 2 games so far. To mention just a few: The absolute authority of Jacob's father producing a tendency towards absolute exploitation; the discovery that Element Zero induces biotic poweres and their subsequent utilisation, another Reaper artefact; the genetic manipulation by the Salarians of the Krogan race; the genetic manipulation by Cerberus (and others) of humans to pursue biotic enhancement; the development of AI; the Asarian cross-species reproductive system; just a few of the themes prevalent. One might add, the desire for species supremacy (Cerberus for the humans - others too).

By directing scientific endeavours, the Reapers produce species with traits most like their own, thus making subsequent sequestration all the more likely to produce species similar enough to their own gestalt natures.

The Reapers reap othe r Reapers, because that is the path we have been driven down. All the interstellar species of Mass Effect, to a greater or lesser extent, are themselves like Reapers in the first place, and all have a tendency to be more Reaper-like if they can, whether they know it or not.

[kaotician]

Oh, and not forgetting the genetic manipulation of Grunt.