49 réponses à ce sujet

[i64ever]

That first time your party camps, you are approached by a secret messenger.  He's from Loghain, wanting to form an alliance.  He is not an evil man, just the law-and-order and the end-justifies-the-means one.  His sales pitch is simple. 

"Every man, elf and dwarf in Ferelden is in danger of being exterminated.  Now is not the time to worry about whether a small minority of our subjects are inconvenienced, or a few freedoms are abridged.  We need to unite to prevent our country from being ravaged.  And you know I'm the best man for that job, no matter what you think about me personally."

As far as gettting the king and grey wardens killed, his answer would be similar to one he gave in the landsmeet.

"It broke my heart to leave the king and grey wardens to their deaths.  But Cailan's strategy was wrong.  If I sent the rest of the army in to fight, they would have been slaughtered as well.  I tried desperately to convince him of this, but he would not listen.  I held part of the army back not in an act of betrayal, but in a desperate attempt to salvage something from the disaster which was going to be Ostagar."

Most of the quests would have been the same.  Loghain wants the elves, dwarves and mages on his side as well, and with the death of Cailan, the grey warden's treaties you hold are the best tool for that job.  And he wouldn't have wanted Recdcliff destroyed by undead and a demon either, though you probably would have ended that quest by killing Eamon instead of healing him.  Even Howe's kidnapping of the queen could have been Howe going rogue and kidnapping Logahins's daughter in an attempt to at blackmail instead of following orders.  Only the Ashes quest would have needed to be replaced or changed.

That would be a major choice to offer players. 

[hexaligned]

Agreed, I actually think he was right philosophically, even if the execution was kind of botched. It also would have made for a more interesting game. I'm sure Bioware considers things like this, they are somewhat limited by game size/cost though. So you end up with a choice 2 less fleshed out story lines. Or one really fleshed out story line.



Perfection would be able to do both, hopefully their game design is evolving in that direction, because I agree, most of the "choices" in the game boil down to a few alternate lines of dialogue, it works on the first playthrough, but on subsequent ones I was sort of left with a "thats it?" feeling.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Except Loghain doesn't believe there really is a blight hence no reason to ask for an alliance with you.

[angj57]

i64ever wrote...

That first time your party camps, you are approached by a secret messenger.  He's from Loghain, wanting to form an alliance.  He is not an evil man, just the law-and-order and the end-justifies-the-means one.  His sales pitch is simple. 

"Every man, elf and dwarf in Ferelden is in danger of being exterminated.  Now is not the time to worry about whether a small minority of our subjects are inconvenienced, or a few freedoms are abridged.  We need to unite to prevent our country from being ravaged.  And you know I'm the best man for that job, no matter what you think about me personally."

As far as gettting the king and grey wardens killed, his answer would be similar to one he gave in the landsmeet.

"It broke my heart to leave the king and grey wardens to their deaths.  But Cailan's strategy was wrong.  If I sent the rest of the army in to fight, they would have been slaughtered as well.  I tried desperately to convince him of this, but he would not listen.  I held part of the army back not in an act of betrayal, but in a desperate attempt to salvage something from the disaster which was going to be Ostagar."

Most of the quests would have been the same.  Loghain wants the elves, dwarves and mages on his side as well, and with the death of Cailan, the grey warden's treaties you hold are the best tool for that job.  And he wouldn't have wanted Recdcliff destroyed by undead and a demon either, though you probably would have ended that quest by killing Eamon instead of healing him.  Even Howe's kidnapping of the queen could have been Howe going rogue and kidnapping Logahins's daughter in an attempt to at blackmail instead of following orders.  Only the Ashes quest would have needed to be replaced or changed.

That would be a major choice to offer players. 

What would be Loghain's motivation? If there were a significant contingent of Grey Warden survivors, he might be willing to put aside his distrust of them and propose an alliance, but why would he bother given that there are only 2 left? And I don't think Loghain knows anything about the treaties.

[Madriker]

Interesting tangent, though I see it more along the lines of giving the Warden the chance to abandon the Grey Wardens and suspending faith in Duncan's belief that a true blight is upon Ferelden.

[DJ0000]

Problem is Loghain doesn't believe he needs you to defeat the blight, he doesn't even conceed that there is a blight untill the Landsmeet and he holds a deep mistrust for the Grey Warden's because he believes that you want to help the Orlesians enter Ferelden once more.



This would esentially require Loghain to be a different person for this option to be viable.

[Xetirox]

He's already used the Grey Wardens as the "fall guys" to take the blame for Cailan's death, doesn't think that they're necessary to combat a Blight (and doesn't even believe that the current situation is a Blight anyway), and is doing everything he can to stop the Orlesians from moving in (and being as the Gray Wardens wanted to bring them in, well...). Inviting the last two schmucks of the order isn't very in-character for Loghain; he doesn't trust the Wardens, doesn't feel he needs them (and really, what do two morons have to offer anyway?), and has already used them as a scapegoat in order to save face.

[Ponce de Leon]

I think it was Cailen's fault to begin with. I mean, he just wanted glory. No war brings glory, and Cailan failed at understanding that. Wars are won with strategies, even the most dirty ones, but it is done to secure your nation. Ultimately however, war is not won from any sides, since there are heavy losses. Loghain knew that if the entire army would have been lost at Ostagar, Ferelden couldn't stand a chance, so he retreated. I don't think there is anything bad in that, apart from not telling the main forces at Ostagar about that. That is a minus point for Loghain. As for his hate of the wardens, I don't think there is anything about it either, he considered them as children as Cailan was. He says so even at the landsmeet, thinking you were a child playing at war.

So, he made a mistake, big deal, but killing him doesn't grant you anything. Revenge? You are no better then the darkspawn. If you give Alistair that, you admit your defeat, for Alistair's feelings are more child-like.



Still, more on-topic. It would be interesting, to side with Loghain. Fun to see the options.

[_Aine_]

Well, that actually could be done i think. Once Loghain realizes you are a formidable opponent ( aka you will totally win lol) he could think of a trade off " So, I hear you are looking to build an army...." and there is a civil war brewing right? So, he could use his military connections and his army to assist you to trade off for supporting his cause and strengthening things internally without seeking outside help ( and not going for the throne for alistair against the Earls dreams. ) You get troops ( for what he may still consider a thing of myth rather than present threat or reality, that is hard to say) and he gets less resistance from a charismatic and powerful adversary turned ally. For Loghain, it would be less win than battle. Not sure what Howe would do with this though.



Could work i think. I'd have taken that chance, to get the moody bugger in my party earlier. I quite like the character to be perfectly honest. He is intense, passionate, tactical to the exclusion of his own heart and possibly irreparably flawed. Great story-wise.



I'm not sure it was Cailen's "fault" necessarily, but he should have been smart enough to not want to go to the front lines. Tactically, that wasn't the smartest decision for a king. Especially one with big ambition. The darkspawn killed him sure, and maybe they all would have been slaughtered anyway ( seems likely ) but the fact remains that the only person left standing will be the one holding the bag of responsibility when all is said and done. Had Loghain died, the stories told of glory and failure may have been quite different I think...

[angj57]

dark-lauron wrote...

I think it was Cailen's fault to begin with. I mean, he just wanted glory. No war brings glory, and Cailan failed at understanding that. Wars are won with strategies, even the most dirty ones, but it is done to secure your nation. Ultimately however, war is not won from any sides, since there are heavy losses. Loghain knew that if the entire army would have been lost at Ostagar, Ferelden couldn't stand a chance, so he retreated. I don't think there is anything bad in that, apart from not telling the main forces at Ostagar about that. That is a minus point for Loghain. As for his hate of the wardens, I don't think there is anything about it either, he considered them as children as Cailan was. He says so even at the landsmeet, thinking you were a child playing at war.
So, he made a mistake, big deal, but killing him doesn't grant you anything. Revenge? You are no better then the darkspawn. If you give Alistair that, you admit your defeat, for Alistair's feelings are more child-like.

Still, more on-topic. It would be interesting, to side with Loghain. Fun to see the options.

I completely disagree.  Does Cailan act like a child? It's hard for us to say because there is no way to know if his forces would have won or not at Ostagar had Loghain flanked the darkspawn as he was ordered to. But it is clear the Loghain is a slimy, double-crossing scumbag. I don't understand why some people buy into his post-facto justifications of his retreat at Ostagar. Loghain clearly wanted Cailan out of the way so he could become regent and later king. His actions were nothing other than a base grab for power. Keep in mind that Cailan seems somewhat amenable to the Grey Warden idea of summoning help from the Orlesians. Loghain is the one who is adamently opposed to this idea. If he were truly afraid for Ferelden or the safety of the king's army he would be more open to the idea of seeking outside aid. The truth is that, because of his desire for the throne, he is the number one advocate of Ferelden fighting the blight on its own and then devides the nation even further because of his insistance that he should rule. There is nothing wise or redeeming about Loghain; he is not only regicidal but is a complete failure as a leader and should be executed at the Landsmeet as a message to the people that the page has been turned and that there is no excuse for his treasonous actions.

[DarthRomance]

on my first playthrough I thought at first we would have to choose between Cailan and Loghain's faction. If anyone thinks that Loghain only killed Cailan because he wanted to be king, I think they are misinterpreting Loghain's intentions. Loghain is a patriot first, which is the flaw that leads him to betrayal. Ferelden's independence is a lot more important than whoever is on the throne to him. I really believe he only takes over to get Ferelden through the crisis and until a good successor can be found who will insure Ferelden's values are not compromised.



I think he could have a use for you if he made you sort of a spy that could report on what the Grey Wardens or King was talking about. Of course he already had his plan when you get there so I suppose that doesn't make sense in the game as it is now. If you spent more time in the Army Camp that could be fun.

[thegreateski]

. . . and then he has you killed for being an Orlesian spy.

[Kekse2k]

After reading "The Stolen Throne" I have so much more respect for Loggy now. He ultimately will do anything for Ferelden.

[_Aine_]

Kekse2k wrote...

After reading "The Stolen Throne" I have so much more respect for Loggy now. He ultimately will do anything for Ferelden.

same here.  big time.    it was the book that changed my opinion of him forever, probably.  

Modifié par shantisands, 31 janvier 2010 - 01:43 .

[DarthRomance]

thegreateski wrote...

. . . and then he has you killed for being an Orlesian spy.

Sure he could try.  Whole game he tries to have me killed for "killing the king."  How did that work out for him...

[thegreateski]

DarthRomance wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

. . . and then he has you killed for being an Orlesian spy.

Sure he could try.  Whole game he tries to have me killed for "killing the king."  How did that work out for him...

Yup but then we're back to being Grey Wardens on the run.

[Abriael_CG]

No thanks. Really.



It's so funny. No matter how many "roguish" options you give. Some people are never happy.

[DarthRomance]

thegreateski wrote...

DarthRomance wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

. . . and then he has you killed for being an Orlesian spy.

Sure he could try.  Whole game he tries to have me killed for "killing the king."  How did that work out for him...

Yup but then we're back to being Grey Wardens on the run.

yeah but that is what the game is about.  He could set it up so that it looks like you are his right hand man and it was you that betrayed the king as an Orlesian GW spy.  Oh and extra bonus: Alistair tries to hunt me down and kill me for betraying Duncan and I get to kill him.

[angj57]

DarthRomance wrote...

on my first playthrough I thought at first we would have to choose between Cailan and Loghain's faction. If anyone thinks that Loghain only killed Cailan because he wanted to be king, I think they are misinterpreting Loghain's intentions. Loghain is a patriot first, which is the flaw that leads him to betrayal. Ferelden's independence is a lot more important than whoever is on the throne to him. I really believe he only takes over to get Ferelden through the crisis and until a good successor can be found who will insure Ferelden's values are not compromised.

I think he could have a use for you if he made you sort of a spy that could report on what the Grey Wardens or King was talking about. Of course he already had his plan when you get there so I suppose that doesn't make sense in the game as it is now. If you spent more time in the Army Camp that could be fun.

I don't doubt that at some point in the past Loghain may have been a patriot and fought for Ferelden, but at this point his actions can be explained only two ways: he's insane, or he's obsessed with becoming king. So he wants to keep Ferelden free of Orlais and he really thinks the best way of doing that is letting most of Ferelden's army be destroyed at Ostagar? Even if Loghain could manage to defeat the blight afterward, a wartorn Ferelden would be at the mercy of the Orlesians afterward if they wanted to invade again. This is really supposed to be a better strategy than asking for the Orlesians' help and having the two armies fight the darkspawn side by side, when they would presumably take roughly equal losses?

[Realmzmaster]

The problem I had with Loghain at the Landsmeet is that he lied. The strategy was never Cailan's, but Loghain's. It is easy to blame the dead they cannot defend themselves.
I have respect for Loghain after reading the Stolen throne, but that does not justify his paranoid actions. It is simply his way with no listening to any reason.
If Cailan was a child playing at war, Loghain became a fool who listen only to himself.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 31 janvier 2010 - 02:24 .

[draxynnus]

angj57 wrote...

I completely disagree.  Does Cailan act like a child? It's hard for us to say because there is no way to know if his forces would have won or not at Ostagar had Loghain flanked the darkspawn as he was ordered to. But it is clear the Loghain is a slimy, double-crossing scumbag. I don't understand why some people buy into his post-facto justifications of his retreat at Ostagar. Loghain clearly wanted Cailan out of the way so he could become regent and later king. His actions were nothing other than a base grab for power. Keep in mind that Cailan seems somewhat amenable to the Grey Warden idea of summoning help from the Orlesians. Loghain is the one who is adamently opposed to this idea. If he were truly afraid for Ferelden or the safety of the king's army he would be more open to the idea of seeking outside aid. The truth is that, because of his desire for the throne, he is the number one advocate of Ferelden fighting the blight on its own and then devides the nation even further because of his insistance that he should rule. There is nothing wise or redeeming about Loghain; he is not only regicidal but is a complete failure as a leader and should be executed at the Landsmeet as a message to the people that the page has been turned and that there is no excuse for his treasonous actions.

Sounds like you've missed the point...

It's not the idea of reinforcements that Loghain objects to, but where they come from.

The reason Loghain was opposed to the idea of summoning help from the Orlesians is that, fundamentally, he can't let go of the idea that Orlais, not the darkspawn, is the true threat. Neither he nor Cailen were convinced at Ostagar that it was a true Blight, while in his mind, the Orlesian "assistance" was basically a plot to re-occupy Ferelden after Ferelden's military had been devastated by the darkspawn. Taking power for himself wasn't his true goal, but it was what he felt was necessary to maintain Ferelden's independance.

Keep in mind that as part of this delusion, he also believes that the Grey Wardens are a political group that is working for Orlais in setting up this plot, subverting Cailen, Arl Eamon, and, when you get down to it, every arl, bann, and organisation that opposes him into the plot. Also remember that the Wardens were banished from Ferelden for a significant portion of the period since the last Blight - from an outsider's viewpoint, they may be seen as having little reason to love Ferelden. Defeating him in the duel at the Landsmeet forces him to consider the possibility that the Wardens are (still) what they say they are - a martial organisation that cares only for defeating the Darkspawn - but before that, he basically thinks of the Grey Wardens as an organisation of Orlesian bards that use the Grey Warden's reputation as just another tool to manipulate their victims.

However, while this puts some perspective on Loghain, it also means that there's no way he's going to find common cause with the Grey Wardens before the Landsmeet. He basically blames them for everything bad that happens to Ferelden except the Darkspawn themselves (and he may not even be sure the Wardens weren't somehow responsible for them too instead of simply exploiting an opportunity). The civil war, the breaking of the Circle, the events at Redcliffe, Loghain's envoys being barred from Orzammar, the losses at the battle of Ostagar, including Cailen - all fundamentally the fault of the Grey Wardens. After all, if the Grey Warden's hadn't spread their poison to these various groups in the first place, they would have stayed loyal in the first place and Loghain wouldn't have been forced to take the steps he did...

Declaring the Wardens to be traitors after Ostagar wasn't simply a matter of political convenience - the loon honestly, truly believed that they had betrayed Ferelden.

Modifié par draxynnus, 31 janvier 2010 - 02:15 .

[DarthRomance]

angj57- would you trust to Orlesians to charge after the signal fire is lit? I certainly would not. It is all the same. Blights are ended by killing the Archdemon. In the end of the game, we are minus the king's army, wartorn, etc. but still not taken over by Orlais in the epilogue. Loghain in fact makes himself regent not king. He is no tyrant. He could easily overthrow the nobility because the commoners love him. But this is not his ambition.

[Realmzmaster]

DarthRomance,

I thought Cailan trusted Loghain to charge in after the signal fire was lit. Seems Cailan would have been better off trusting the Orlesians. Also there is no indication that the Orlesians would come to take over the country.

If the Orlesians wanted to take over the country it would most definitely have a better chance after Loghain let the King's army die at Ostagar.

[DarthRomance]

Realmzmaster wrote...

DarthRomance,
I thought Cailan trusted Loghain to charge in after the signal fire was lit. Seems Cailan would have been better off trusting the Orlesians. Also there is no indication that the Orlesians would come to take over the country.
If the Orlesians wanted to take over the country it would most definitely have a better chance after Loghain let the King's army die at Ostagar.

It was just an analogy.  If the Orlesians were invited in, how could we trust them to not further their own agenda and try to leave our army at a disadvantage?   Loghain just made a hardcore decision to change the leadership of Ferelden for future independence.  Loghain defends freedoms like The Grey Wardens take on Blights.  Cailan would have been better off listening to Loghain but he wants to be a hero.  What is "good" for the glory-obsessed Cailan is not necessarily good for Ferelden.  Whenever you talk to someone about the king like Duncan or Wynne, they aren't like- the king knows best, they are like- yeah he is eager, he is young...basically they are agreeing diplomatically that he is a damn fool.  If the king was a good man and showed the ability to lead Ferelden, Loghain never would have abandoned him. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Seeing how Loghain refused to believe there was a Blight until it was too late, and even then you had to beat it into his thick skull before killing/sparing him, I think it would be out of character and in contrast to the whole story to "join forces" with him. There is nothing in it for him or ferelden as far as I could see. Grey Wardens are Orlesian agents in his mind, there is no Blight...so what exactly would be his reasoning for "joining forces"?



Only if he was trying to set up a trap, basically.



Loghain is a man who only sees reason after you beat it into him. He is simply too stubborn and tunnel visioned to do otherwise.