As the game stands, this doesn't really work. As others point out, Loghain doesn't realize the truth about the Blight until sometime later. That won't stop someone from modding it, though.
For myself, I firmly beleive that part of the reason we got Warden's Keep and Return to Ostagar was to allow for the possibility of more Loghain party membership time.
You should be able to side with Loghain
Débuté par
i64ever
, janv. 30 2010 09:40
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#27
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 03:43
maxernst
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[quote]DarthRomance wrote...
[quote]It was just an analogy. If the Orlesians were invited in, how could we trust them to not further their own agenda and try to leave our army at a disadvantage? Loghain just made a hardcore decision to change the leadership of Ferelden for future independence. Loghain defends freedoms like The Grey Wardens take on Blights. [/quote]
Let's think about this for a second. In Loghain's worst case scenario, Orlais takes over. All the nobles in Ferelden are either replaced with Orlesians or forced to swear fealty to the King of Orlais (probably some combination of both). This is a catastrophe for Loghain and the other people in power in Ferelden but probably make little difference to most people. The only thing a villager in Redcliffe is concerned about is who his lord is, and from what I've seen of Ferelden's nobility, they're not so grand that their replacement would necessarily be any worse. Does it really make sense to risk complete annihilation to avoid this?
Is there any single incident where Loghain acts for the good of Ferelden and against his own self-interest? Don't bring up his patriotic expulsion of the Orlesians. He and his friends went from being outlaws to ruling a kingdom; they did rather well from the war. And who knows what the real situation was. Of course, we're told that the Orlesians were horrible; history is written by the victors. If his rebellion had been put down, everyone in Ferelden would remember them as bloodthirsty brigands. It seems to me that the good of Ferelden and the good of Loghain are conveniently one and the same in his mind.
[quote]It was just an analogy. If the Orlesians were invited in, how could we trust them to not further their own agenda and try to leave our army at a disadvantage? Loghain just made a hardcore decision to change the leadership of Ferelden for future independence. Loghain defends freedoms like The Grey Wardens take on Blights. [/quote]
Let's think about this for a second. In Loghain's worst case scenario, Orlais takes over. All the nobles in Ferelden are either replaced with Orlesians or forced to swear fealty to the King of Orlais (probably some combination of both). This is a catastrophe for Loghain and the other people in power in Ferelden but probably make little difference to most people. The only thing a villager in Redcliffe is concerned about is who his lord is, and from what I've seen of Ferelden's nobility, they're not so grand that their replacement would necessarily be any worse. Does it really make sense to risk complete annihilation to avoid this?
Is there any single incident where Loghain acts for the good of Ferelden and against his own self-interest? Don't bring up his patriotic expulsion of the Orlesians. He and his friends went from being outlaws to ruling a kingdom; they did rather well from the war. And who knows what the real situation was. Of course, we're told that the Orlesians were horrible; history is written by the victors. If his rebellion had been put down, everyone in Ferelden would remember them as bloodthirsty brigands. It seems to me that the good of Ferelden and the good of Loghain are conveniently one and the same in his mind.
#28
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 05:03
Raphael diSanto
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Loghain is a perfectly written example of the paranoid delusional patriot. He's Ed Harris in The Rock. Anora understands him perfectly. She understands that his hatred of the Orlesians has blinded him to everything else.
Loghain spends his entire time in the game trying to do 'The Right Thing', no matter how distasteful those actions might be, even to him. I've no doubt he regrets leaving Cailan to die. I've no doubt he regrets everything he's had to do since then, like letting slavers into the Alienage. It doesn't stop him from doing it, because to Loghain, a destroyed Ferelden is more preferable than one occupied by Orlais.
Unfortunately, his patriotism is very sadly misguided. He becomes that which he most hates (as with most overly zealous fanatics), and doesn't see it until the end (as with all these types of characters). You very much get the sense that he would personally kill every person in Ferelden to prevent them from being ruled by Orlais. Loghain's very much a subscribed to the scorched earth philosophy, at least where Orlais is concerned.
What always got me about Loghain is that at Ostagar, he never offers an alternative. He tells Cailan all the things that are wrong with Cailan's plans. But he never offers an alternative solution. Of course, that's the writing. What I wanted to see was Cailan say "Alright, Loghain, since everything I've said is apparently wrong, what do -YOU- want do? Turn the army around and go home?"
I've never read the books, but I am in absolutely no doubt that during the Orlesian occupation, Loghain was a hero and an honorable man. But time and hatred have twisted him into a bitter caricature of that man.
Loghain spends his entire time in the game trying to do 'The Right Thing', no matter how distasteful those actions might be, even to him. I've no doubt he regrets leaving Cailan to die. I've no doubt he regrets everything he's had to do since then, like letting slavers into the Alienage. It doesn't stop him from doing it, because to Loghain, a destroyed Ferelden is more preferable than one occupied by Orlais.
Unfortunately, his patriotism is very sadly misguided. He becomes that which he most hates (as with most overly zealous fanatics), and doesn't see it until the end (as with all these types of characters). You very much get the sense that he would personally kill every person in Ferelden to prevent them from being ruled by Orlais. Loghain's very much a subscribed to the scorched earth philosophy, at least where Orlais is concerned.
What always got me about Loghain is that at Ostagar, he never offers an alternative. He tells Cailan all the things that are wrong with Cailan's plans. But he never offers an alternative solution. Of course, that's the writing. What I wanted to see was Cailan say "Alright, Loghain, since everything I've said is apparently wrong, what do -YOU- want do? Turn the army around and go home?"
I've never read the books, but I am in absolutely no doubt that during the Orlesian occupation, Loghain was a hero and an honorable man. But time and hatred have twisted him into a bitter caricature of that man.
Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 31 janvier 2010 - 05:07 .
#29
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 05:20
Kekse2k
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One of the things the game doesn't exactly portray is just how terrible the Orlesian occupation was Currently reading "The Calling" and Loghain treated Maric pretty much the same way he treated Cailan. He's very self-righteous, and a prominent character commented in "The Stolen Throne" about his idea that he should know what a king is "supposed" to do. One of Loghain's ideas is that being a king doesn't always mean being a man, or something like that. It's just how he is. Call it an extreme form of tough love, I suppose.
#30
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 05:44
steelfire_dragon
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Loghain was no fool, but Cailin was.
I would of loved to of been able to convince Alister to let him live, alas the only wat to do that Itseams would of been to know how the wardens defeat the archdemon...
I would of loved to of been able to convince Alister to let him live, alas the only wat to do that Itseams would of been to know how the wardens defeat the archdemon...
#31
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 06:29
SusanStoHelit
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Raphael diSanto wrote...
What always got me about Loghain is that at Ostagar, he never offers an alternative. He tells Cailan all the things that are wrong with Cailan's plans. But he never offers an alternative solution. Of course, that's the writing. What I wanted to see was Cailan say "Alright, Loghain, since everything I've said is apparently wrong, what do -YOU- want do? Turn the army around and go home?"
Actually, the plan was Loghain's not Cailan's iirc. So Loghain sucks even as a tactician, not just a strategist.
Edit: But I agree with the rest. Loghain cares not about Ferelden's survival, or the survival of it's citizens. He cares only about it's independence. Better off dead is his philosophy. Okay, mate, I'll take you up on that. But choose it for yourself, not everyone else.
Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 31 janvier 2010 - 06:32 .
#32
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 09:33
Eruanna Guerrein
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shantisands wrote...
Kekse2k wrote...
After reading "The Stolen Throne" I have so much more respect for Loggy now. He ultimately will do anything for Ferelden.
same here. big time. it was the book that changed my opinion of him forever, probably.
I can respect who he was. I cannot respect who he has become. He's a has been who's been bested by me and my party over and over. He's become dangerous and is no longer needed so... buhbye Loggy. Ferelden doesn't need you any more.
#33
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 09:57
Solica
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@ OP The way I see it, you just want to fit a story of your making into fiction of someone else. I don't think that's quite appropriate, to ask that else to fit your stuff, but Bioware have made it appropriate for people to try their own. Right, the modding again.
As for an idea, I think Bioware have already too many too far stretches and plot holes on their hands. I don't really want story driven rpgs to try harder to fit more "sides". It just starts to ruin the story at some point. Loghain was cast as a villain. A realistic villain with complex motives, but a villain nevertheless. Get over it.
As for an idea, I think Bioware have already too many too far stretches and plot holes on their hands. I don't really want story driven rpgs to try harder to fit more "sides". It just starts to ruin the story at some point. Loghain was cast as a villain. A realistic villain with complex motives, but a villain nevertheless. Get over it.
#34
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 10:56
i64ever
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Somebody asked about a possible motivation for Loghain to want you on his side. How about the grey warden treaties? Loghain has lost a good chunk of the army at Ostagar. He may not believe in the blight, but there is still a large group of darkspawn in the south. The only way to replenish the army is to use those treaties to get the dwarves, elves and mages, and only a grey warden can use them.
#35
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 11:22
Addai
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He's a great tactician. There was nothing wrong with the plan (and yes, it was his, not Cailan's). Loghain was objecting to Cailan being on the front lines. He was right to- there was no need for Cailan to be so exposed- they just needed to draw the darkspawn in and surely the whole of Ferelden's Grey Wardens being at the front would do that.SusanStoHelit wrote...
Raphael diSanto wrote...
What always got me about Loghain is that at Ostagar, he never offers an alternative. He tells Cailan all the things that are wrong with Cailan's plans. But he never offers an alternative solution. Of course, that's the writing. What I wanted to see was Cailan say "Alright, Loghain, since everything I've said is apparently wrong, what do -YOU- want do? Turn the army around and go home?"
Actually, the plan was Loghain's not Cailan's iirc. So Loghain sucks even as a tactician, not just a strategist.
As for that messenger in camp, I would send him away with the same message my PCs usually give his lackeys in Lothering: The Grey Wardens know what really happened, and we are coming for you. Even if my human noble character would better understand his motives after reading the correspondence in Ostagr, she would still have said there is no excuse for deliberately abandoning your king and his armies when they are counting on you, or starting civil war at the time of a Blight.
#36
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 11:30
DPSSOC
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The problem with your character siding with Loghain is that Loghain would never side with them. The man tries to kill you on 5 separate occasions and he's fully comitted to his GW's are evil campaign. He's not going to accept your help, until he has no other choice.
#37
Posté 31 janvier 2010 - 11:35
Relband
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I cannot see any realistic way of introducing Loghain as an ally to the two remaining Grey Wardens.
As long as they are lacking support from Eamonn and the rest, they are no threat to Loghain and therefore he has absolutely no motivation for performing a huge about-turn, abandoning the kill-on-sight policy towards the wardens (remember an edict is in force outlawing wardens in Ferelden and basically putting a bounty on the heads of the survivors of Ostagar).
Whereas once the wardens have mustered enough support to be a viable threat to Loghain, they have no need for him. Making up with Loghain would automatically mean the loss of support from Redcliffe - Eamonn would not forgive Loghain and he would not accept the warden's "any means necessary" policy. The break-up with Eamonn would in turn mean no chance of getting any support from the Bannorn, and thus no chance of a successful claim to the throne of Ferelden for Alistair. And finally, the magi, elves and dwarves are treaty-bound to support the wardens against the Blight ONLY - they would not support them against Loghain. Thus a decision to side with Loghain would mean the wardens would lose any clout they would have gathered by then, and would be easily neutralised and sent off to join Duncan and the others in the Fade.
As long as they are lacking support from Eamonn and the rest, they are no threat to Loghain and therefore he has absolutely no motivation for performing a huge about-turn, abandoning the kill-on-sight policy towards the wardens (remember an edict is in force outlawing wardens in Ferelden and basically putting a bounty on the heads of the survivors of Ostagar).
Whereas once the wardens have mustered enough support to be a viable threat to Loghain, they have no need for him. Making up with Loghain would automatically mean the loss of support from Redcliffe - Eamonn would not forgive Loghain and he would not accept the warden's "any means necessary" policy. The break-up with Eamonn would in turn mean no chance of getting any support from the Bannorn, and thus no chance of a successful claim to the throne of Ferelden for Alistair. And finally, the magi, elves and dwarves are treaty-bound to support the wardens against the Blight ONLY - they would not support them against Loghain. Thus a decision to side with Loghain would mean the wardens would lose any clout they would have gathered by then, and would be easily neutralised and sent off to join Duncan and the others in the Fade.
#38
Posté 01 février 2010 - 12:24
Doyle41
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Loghain should have just told the king that he wasn't going to support him or bring troops. He was known for his brashness and even King Meric had said that if Loghain didn't want to do somthing, he wouldn't. Hd Rowan been alive, do you think that Loghain would have left her son for dead? If you recall that Loghain had urged Rowan's father to fight the Orlesians in a lost cause. Rowan's father chose to sacrifice Loghain, only to have her ride off to save him.
Having Loghain live through that experience, he at least owed Rowan's memory to save Cailan. Weird how Loghain had his men in the tower to light it also. He had no intent on fighting and should have made it clear before hand.
ADDED: I understand that Loghain has a ligimite reason to hate the Wardens, however, he should have never offered support to the king.
Wardens have no allegience to any king or country. Also, years ago, Grey Wardens tried to overthrow the King of Fereldan, nearly doing so.
Having Loghain live through that experience, he at least owed Rowan's memory to save Cailan. Weird how Loghain had his men in the tower to light it also. He had no intent on fighting and should have made it clear before hand.
ADDED: I understand that Loghain has a ligimite reason to hate the Wardens, however, he should have never offered support to the king.
Wardens have no allegience to any king or country. Also, years ago, Grey Wardens tried to overthrow the King of Fereldan, nearly doing so.
Modifié par Doyle41, 01 février 2010 - 12:27 .
#39
Posté 01 février 2010 - 01:21
DarthRomance
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Okay so Loghain is impressed by you takes you in and lets you in on his plan. You have to complete a quest to earn his trust. Then if you choose this dark path you have a new task during the battle and are not with Alistair- like Duncan puts in you charge of the ballista or something. But your real task from Loghain is to sneak into the Tower to keep the signal fire from being lit and killing Alistair. Then Loghain can establish you as the new leader of the Grey Wardens since none are left and blame the signal fire on Alistair. That means he doesn't have to put a hit out on GW's.
Add: Also your goal at the Landsmeet will change from killing Loghain to killing Eammon to secure Anora on the throne. It would be just like any Bioware game where you pick a side and end up killing the other. Loghain replaces Alistair for the full game and maybe Jowan replaces Wynne would be nice.
Add: Also your goal at the Landsmeet will change from killing Loghain to killing Eammon to secure Anora on the throne. It would be just like any Bioware game where you pick a side and end up killing the other. Loghain replaces Alistair for the full game and maybe Jowan replaces Wynne would be nice.
Modifié par DarthRomance, 01 février 2010 - 01:26 .
#40
Posté 01 février 2010 - 02:01
Sir Elliot
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After playing RtO I definetly agree.
Any traitor that allies himself with the Orleasians deserves whatever they get. Loghain was justified, and should be king.
Any traitor that allies himself with the Orleasians deserves whatever they get. Loghain was justified, and should be king.
#41
Posté 01 février 2010 - 02:19
maxernst
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Okay, if you ally with Loghain at Ostagar, that could make sense but you're asking for an enormous amount of additional writing. For one thing, either you'll be the only Grey Warden alive or they'll have to write another Grey Warden character, because I don't see how you're going to get Alistair to go along with this. You can't have Loghain in your party from the start. He has too many other things he needs to be doing (and he can't possibly be a low level character).
Then you have completely different tasks elsewhere as well...not only will you need to kill Arle Eamon to remove a rival claimant to the throne, but you'll be taking out Gregoir's Templars so that you can have Uldred & his blood mages help Loghain. I don't know how Morrigan/Flemeth can be fitted into this plotline either, since there's no need to rescue you from Ostagar. This sounds like a pretty major rewrite.
Then you have completely different tasks elsewhere as well...not only will you need to kill Arle Eamon to remove a rival claimant to the throne, but you'll be taking out Gregoir's Templars so that you can have Uldred & his blood mages help Loghain. I don't know how Morrigan/Flemeth can be fitted into this plotline either, since there's no need to rescue you from Ostagar. This sounds like a pretty major rewrite.
#42
Posté 01 février 2010 - 02:49
Realmzmaster
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DarthRomance,
But what if I want to make myself (human noble) King by marrying his daughter would Loghain stand for that? Could Loghain control Howe? The game shows that he could not. Why would Howe trust the Grey Warden especially if your origin is human noble?
Why would Loghain be impressed by someone he has never seen in battle or know very well? Do you think Loghain would trusts Duncan's appraisal of the PC? Do you think someone as paranoid as Loghain would trust a Grey Warden, someone else he cannot control?
Why would the PC care about being head of the Grey Warden's when he/she is the only one left (if you off Alistair)? The PC cannot make new Grey Wardens because the PC does not know how. You either have to scarfice yourself or take Morrigan's offer.
Loghain will not allow other Grey Wardens to enter the country. What is to stop Loghain from killing you after the battle with the Arch Demon assuming you do not scarfice yourself?
The PC becomes a threat to Loghain as the Hero of Ferelden overshadowing the Hero of Riverdane.
But what if I want to make myself (human noble) King by marrying his daughter would Loghain stand for that? Could Loghain control Howe? The game shows that he could not. Why would Howe trust the Grey Warden especially if your origin is human noble?
Why would Loghain be impressed by someone he has never seen in battle or know very well? Do you think Loghain would trusts Duncan's appraisal of the PC? Do you think someone as paranoid as Loghain would trust a Grey Warden, someone else he cannot control?
Why would the PC care about being head of the Grey Warden's when he/she is the only one left (if you off Alistair)? The PC cannot make new Grey Wardens because the PC does not know how. You either have to scarfice yourself or take Morrigan's offer.
Loghain will not allow other Grey Wardens to enter the country. What is to stop Loghain from killing you after the battle with the Arch Demon assuming you do not scarfice yourself?
The PC becomes a threat to Loghain as the Hero of Ferelden overshadowing the Hero of Riverdane.
#43
Posté 01 février 2010 - 03:26
draxynnus
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He thinks he's already got the mages on side, and from what his envoys say as you enter Orzammar, it sounds like he considers Orzammar to be a vassal state of Ferelden and thus he doesn't need any silly treaties with the dwarves. That just leaves the Dalish, which Loghain may well dismiss entirely, either because they're elves or because their nomadic behaviour makes their loyalties suspect.i64ever wrote...
Somebody asked about a possible motivation for Loghain to want you on his side. How about the grey warden treaties? Loghain has lost a good chunk of the army at Ostagar. He may not believe in the blight, but there is still a large group of darkspawn in the south. The only way to replenish the army is to use those treaties to get the dwarves, elves and mages, and only a grey warden can use them.
#44
Posté 01 février 2010 - 03:36
Clumber
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I just want to say, does anyone remember Loghain trying to convince Cailan NOT to fight on the front lines? Loghain may have been planning to retreat the whole time, but the only reason the King had to die was because of his own stupidity.
#45
Posté 01 février 2010 - 03:59
DPSSOC
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Sir Elliot wrote...
After playing RtO I definetly agree.
Any traitor that allies himself with the Orleasians deserves whatever they get. Loghain was justified, and should be king.
Loghain is a commoner, he's a dog that's been dressed up and taught a few tricks; welcome among the nobility but nobody really cares what it thinks. Loghain shouldn't have been allowed to be teryn much less king, he lacks the education necessary to run a country and deal with the nobility, as expressed by his inability to rally them. Anora might pass, she's the daughter of a commoner but she's at least go the education to be aceptable.
Now whatever you may think of Cailin's dealings with Orlais as King he had the right to pursue diplomatic relations with another nation, even one with whom they'd recently been at war. Loghain however comitted treason by disobeying his kings orders and abandoning the field at Ostagar. He deserves a traitors death, hung in the markets while peasants through rotten food at him.
#46
Posté 01 février 2010 - 04:20
KnightofPhoenix
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Although I would love to return to my career of defending Loghain as one of his staunchest advocates since the game was released, I am afraid I am too focused on defending the Illusive Man and Cerberus these days.
However, to answer the op, I say no, we shouldn't be able to side with Loghain. The entire point of the character is being an antagonist that you either sympathise with or abhor (the majority abhors him). Joining him would kill the character.
However, to answer the op, I say no, we shouldn't be able to side with Loghain. The entire point of the character is being an antagonist that you either sympathise with or abhor (the majority abhors him). Joining him would kill the character.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 février 2010 - 04:20 .
#47
Posté 01 février 2010 - 04:23
SinYang
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I dunno about that Knight, Loghain seems just as much loghain in the latest dlc. I was really impressed with his comments at all points. Being a party member/warden hasnt changed him.
From loghain's pov, im sure he thinks to lead your party
agruing over what to do with cailan. Id have it no other way.
From loghain's pov, im sure he thinks to lead your party
agruing over what to do with cailan. Id have it no other way.
Modifié par SinYang, 01 février 2010 - 04:27 .
#48
Posté 01 février 2010 - 04:38
KnightofPhoenix
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SinYang wrote...
I dunno about that Knight, Loghain seems just as much loghain in the latest dlc. I was really impressed with his comments at all points. Being a party member/warden hasnt changed him.
From loghain's pov, im sure he thinks to lead your party
At that point, he joins you and not vice versa
But yea, that's Loghain. Wouldn't have him any other way either.
There was a time when Loghain became my favorite video game character (alongside Saren). Now, the Illusive Man takes that spot. The Illusive Man is the only character that ever made me want to smoke and drink!
#49
Posté 01 février 2010 - 09:45
Belrix
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Kekse2k wrote...
After reading "The Stolen Throne" I have so much more respect for Loggy now. He ultimately will do anything for Ferelden.
Yes, even sell his own subjects (even if they are elves) into slavery to the Trevinter.. Seize property from Banns. Plot the murder of a powerful Arl, using a malificar and interferring with the operations of the Templars seeking the malificar.
As a noble, there is no forgivness for bringing Howe under his wing after he 'took out' the 2nd family of Ferelden. Loghain knew of this in Ostegar, since he said he heard of it and knew there was a surviving Cousland. This sort of irked me with Anora as well, since she said she held Elenore Cousland as a dear friend, but still was too spineless with father to deal with Howe.
#50
Posté 02 février 2010 - 12:57
Doyle41
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Although I would love to return to my career of defending Loghain as one of his staunchest advocates since the game was released,
Flemeth told Meric that Loghain would betray him. The ultimate betrayal came by allowing Cailan to die. I would never side with Loghain even if it were an option. He was a cancer almost as black as the taint that spreads across the deep roads. Even when I found the slightest humanity in the man, he found a way to destroy that notion.
