437 réponses à ce sujet

[ShadyKat]

I blew it up for two reasons.

1.) I simply don't trust the Illusive Man. The guy has shown he has no morals, and would happily slaughter all the other races just to save humanity.

2.) The base was an abomination, and no good ever comes from things like that. To keep it only would lead to bad things happening, imo.

Modifié par ShadyKat, 28 mai 2010 - 03:00 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ShadyKat wrote...

I blew it up for two reasons.

1.) I simply don't trust the Illusive Man. The guy has shown he has no morals, and would happily slaughter all the other races just to save humanity.

2.) The base was an abomination, and no good ever comes from things like that. To keep it only would lead to bad things happening, imo.

1) Weakening the galactic power base by destroying the base makes that sort of situation, decisions of how many species have to die to beat the Reapers, more likely. Not less.

The best way to avoid a situation in which another species would have to die to save humanity would be to ensure that humanity is strong enough to not need that sacrifice.


2) That's a moral fallacy of the oldest order. Good has already come out of Reaper tech.

[ShadyKat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ShadyKat wrote...

I blew it up for two reasons.

1.) I simply don't trust the Illusive Man. The guy has shown he has no morals, and would happily slaughter all the other races just to save humanity.

2.) The base was an abomination, and no good ever comes from things like that. To keep it only would lead to bad things happening, imo.

1) Weakening the galactic power base by destroying the base makes that sort of situation, decisions of how many species have to die to beat the Reapers, more likely. Not less.

The best way to avoid a situation in which another species would have to die to save humanity would be to ensure that humanity is strong enough to not need that sacrifice.


2) That's a moral fallacy of the oldest order. Good has already come out of Reaper tech.

What good? The New Normandy? Well that remains to be seen, if EDI goes all Reaper on us in ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since EDI, the Normandy, and the Thannix cannon have all done unquestionably good things in stopping the Collectors already, there is no 'remains to be seen' by any objective standard.





Technology is not morally inherent. It is always how it is used: simply because the Reapers use it for one thing does not mean it can not be re-purposed for another.

[ShadyKat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since EDI, the Normandy, and the Thannix cannon have all done unquestionably good things in stopping the Collectors already, there is no 'remains to be seen' by any objective standard.


Technology is not morally inherent. It is always how it is used: simply because the Reapers use it for one thing does not mean it can not be re-purposed for another.

You mean like nuclear weapons? Some things are just best left not being used, ever. And humans fumbling in ignorance (Sovereign quote) with something of that magnitude is jut a bad idea. Remember Reaper tech has the pesky effect of brain washing organics.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nuclear weapons come hand in hand with nuclear power, which has the potential to provide cheap, relatively clean energy to the world if people would just get over their phobias about it.



The solution to ignorance is illuminating with knowledge, not sticking one's head in the ground and pretending the problem doesn't exist like the Council does.



Only indoctrination systems will indoctrinate people, but Reaper technology goes far beyond indoctrination. Learning how to stop, block, and counter indoctrination is one of the most pressing, and advantageous, things the galaxy can do before the Reapers arrive. Any advances made now, when there is little pressure, will be worth (and save) far more than if they had to be started when the Reapers arrive.

[ShadyKat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nuclear weapons come hand in hand with nuclear power, which has the potential to provide cheap, relatively clean energy to the world if people would just get over their phobias about it.

The solution to ignorance is illuminating with knowledge, not sticking one's head in the ground and pretending the problem doesn't exist like the Council does.

Only indoctrination systems will indoctrinate people, but Reaper technology goes far beyond indoctrination. Learning how to stop, block, and counter indoctrination is one of the most pressing, and advantageous, things the galaxy can do before the Reapers arrive. Any advances made now, when there is little pressure, will be worth (and save) far more than if they had to be started when the Reapers arrive.

Who even says humans can unlock anything about Reaper tech? It's more then likely way more advanced than anything they have ever seen. Also Humans screwing with tech they didn't understand is how the first Contact war got started. what kind of fail safe/ defense may the base have?

[TheAzureVanguard]

I'm torn everytime I decide.



It really comes to your morals I think. For me I have all but 1 of my Shepards destroying the base completely.



I have a Renegade femShep who will keep it however. Of course none of us know what the exact outcome of this decision will be....but I'm scared that keeping it will have a more negative impact on you than a positive one.



Personally I just couldn't justify it after all the deaths that occurred there. Plus I frankly don't trust The Illusive Man and I'm worried he will use it in some evil way in ME3.



Worst case scenario? The Reapers themselves will someone take "control" of the station and use it to further their evil cause.

[STG]

I'm wondering, if you save the base but tell TIM to F-off, do you get to keep it yourself and possibly give it to the council/alliance or does it still remain in cerberus hands?



Also, saving the base makes sense for a renegade since you don't have any other allies out there and reaper tech will help in both protecting earth and policing the galaxy. On the other hand paragons won't really need the base and it's tech since they will save the day with united forces of all council races and some extra help from the side (rachni, geth, krogan...).

[The Spamming Troll]

i didnt destroy the base because im not an ****. i wouldnt destroy something like that because of its potential and i most definitely wouldnt do it because i was paranoid about the illusive mans intentions, if thats even considered an excuse to not do it anyways. the reapers are coming and you have to find a way to stop them. you most likely will find that within another reaper ship, not on some random side mission in ME3. if you destroy the reapers station for any reason, i think your only hurting the possibilities of stopping the reapers. what good comes from destroying the reaper station, other then "im scared of what the illusive man will do."

[Mayson02]

It's probably been mentioned, but I decided to destroy the base based off of what we learned in ME1. The Reapers left their tech lying around to force the technological evolution of subsequent species down predictable paths. If I allowed the people of the ME universe even greater access to Reaper tech, it would just stifle their creativity and play right into the Reapers hands.

[ShadyKat]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i didnt destroy the base because im not an ****. i wouldnt destroy something like that because of its potential and i most definitely wouldnt do it because i was paranoid about the illusive mans intentions, if thats even considered an excuse to not do it anyways. the reapers are coming and you have to find a way to stop them. you most likely will find that within another reaper ship, not on some random side mission in ME3. if you destroy the reapers station for any reason, i think your only hurting the possibilities of stopping the reapers. what good comes from destroying the reaper station, other then "im scared of what the illusive man will do."

I bet that was what the human survey team said that found the body of the dead reaper we get the IFF from. How did that workout for them? They all ended up as husks. Messing with things you have no idea as of how it works can be worst then just leaving well enough alone. But I guess wewill all see in ME3.

[The Spamming Troll]

theres a big difference between a human servey team and commander shepard. but i dont understand your argument. youd rather not destroy it, nor take it, but just "leave it alone?" you think the only real decision bioware gave us in ME2 should just be "leave it alone" and just move on with the story? messing with things we have no idea how they work is how things get done. its how we have everything on earth not made by mother nature herself. someimtes you get lucky and stumble acroos something great like velcro and sometimes you make a large haladron collider and make a black hole that destroys earth. considering the reapers are the lebron james's of the universe, shepards gonna need alot more then the locust and a few biotics to take them out.



destroying the base serves no purpose other then saying your too scared of seeing what could happen. the thing im focussing on is what couldnt happen.

[The Big Nothing]

Yeah. I destroyed it because it's sole purpose is making people into paste.

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Strictly speaking, you've only worked for the Council for maybe about six monthes. You've worked for humanity for years.

Trusting TIM has nothing to do with understanding that he will use the technology, and that the galaxy will benefit from it overall. TIM is logical, and TIM is predictable. He gives you his mission statement first thing.

TIM not using the Collector Base to even the odds against the Reapers would be illogical and detrimental to humanity. Strengthening humanity in preparation for the Reapers will also strengthen the galactic defense capability, which will save human, Turian, Asari, Quarian, Salarian, and many more species' lives.

A stronger humanity is just that: stronger. More capable of opposing the Reapers which threaten everyone.

You are making alot of assumptions based your own point of view. Example you make assumption that collector base technology is what is needed to stop reapers. You make assumption that TIM is able to do it without other races help. You make assumption that TIM having collector technology does benefit galaxy. You make assumption knowing what TIM will and will not do. It's all about you assuming what you think is in you mind most logical assumption, but in reality we don't know what TIM does or what future is brining.

You keep base, I blow the base, let see what happens in ME3.

[lovgreno]

We don't know if or how the base can be usefull.

We do know that Cerberus projects often end up in a bang.

We don't know much at all about Cerberus or the base.

We do know that anything the reapers leave behind have always been a very effective and subtle trap thus far.



TIM is not predictable (if he was he would have been caught by the aliens who have good reasons to see him as a threat by now). TIMs logic is something he keeps to himself for the same reason. We cannot trust him to be able to use the base for good OR bad. Is he and Cerberus competent enough to handle the base? We have only his word for that wich is worth nothing.

[Pacifien]

So this topic came up in the Jack character support thread, and I couldn't really see how to fit my answer on that thread in with the existing topics in this forum since everyone's already waist deep in their debates for one way or another. Plus I tend to think those who post in the debate tend to get fanatically serious about their point of view, of which I'm probably not exempt. So yeah, I shouldn't probably repeat what I said in that thread verbatim into this thread, but screw it. Here it is:

Didn't the Cerberus supporters tell you that the Illusive Man was only going to reverse engineer the Collector base only as a means to defeat the Reapers and would only take select technology solely to benefit mankind's ascension? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png

The thing about scions, praetorians, and husks is that you kinda need a body to start with. So what are you (by you, I mean the Illusive Man, not axl) to do, pick up all the dead bodies you can since no one else needs them anymore? Or start kidnapping the unwanted, unknown, forgotten creatures of the universe and transmogrify them to a greater purpose? Use them on the next enemy to come after the Reapers, perhaps the Batarians? The Turians?

Now, my main Shepard might have kept the base, but the chance to stick it to the Illusive Man made for a much
stronger case to blow the thing up. Yes, that's right, that Shepard didn't consider how the base's technology could have benefited against the fight against the Reapers or how destroying the base would rid the universe of the abomination. Blew up the base simply to rub it in one man's face. No one said you had to do heroic things because you were a hero. Or smart for that matter. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

But yeah, if the Illusive Man and Cerberus weren't a factor, might have kept the base. Tell the Salarians about it. I'm sure they would be able to investigate the base in a manner least likely to blow up in our faces. But this is the Mass Effect universe, so odds are no one would have been cautious and thorough in the investigation, someone would have inadvertently turned on the communication system to the Reapers, the Reapers would be listening in the whole time, possibly sending over some indoctrination vibes.

Nah, the developers wouldn't punish the renegade choice that severely, if at all. Then the game is all about choices, but half the choices are about shooting yourself in the foot. Or Conrad in the foot. That would make it a stupid game about stupid choices.

This post lacks Jack. Screw it, I'm obviously not going to be able to keep posts in the character threads solely about the characters. Posting this in the campaign forum would just be a repeat of the same topic already going on there and my anti-Cerberus attitude would be met with derision.

Okay, this post lacks Jack, but is possessed with Jack's spirit. **** Cerberus.

Modifié par Pacifien, 28 mai 2010 - 07:30 .

[lovgreno]

@Pacifien: From Jacks or a Shepard who are a lot like Jacks perspective your arguments makes perfect sense.

[Dean_the_Young]

ShadyKat wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nuclear weapons come hand in hand with nuclear power, which has the potential to provide cheap, relatively clean energy to the world if people would just get over their phobias about it.

The solution to ignorance is illuminating with knowledge, not sticking one's head in the ground and pretending the problem doesn't exist like the Council does.

Only indoctrination systems will indoctrinate people, but Reaper technology goes far beyond indoctrination. Learning how to stop, block, and counter indoctrination is one of the most pressing, and advantageous, things the galaxy can do before the Reapers arrive. Any advances made now, when there is little pressure, will be worth (and save) far more than if they had to be started when the Reapers arrive.

Who even says humans can unlock anything about Reaper tech? It's more then likely way more advanced than anything they have ever seen. Also Humans screwing with tech they didn't understand is how the first Contact war got started. what kind of fail safe/ defense may the base have?

ShadyKat, are you really that ignorant of the backstory of Mass Effect? Everyone in the galaxy advanced to their current level by reverse engineering the technology hundreds of years beyond their own. This has already been done in the story, multiple times, by multiple races.

Humanity screwing with tech they didn't understand didn't start first contact. The policy decisions of the Turians, who also don't understand how the Relays work, started First Contact. The technology of the relays or humans had nothing to do with why the Turians attacked.

We have already overcome every enemy attempt to prevent us from seizing the base, including long since passing a point at which the base didn't even have anything but ad hoc defenses. At worst, the base is blown up for no explainable reason, putting us no worse than we already were. Everything else realistic is overcomable.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...
You are making alot of assumptions based your own point of view. Example you make assumption that collector base technology is what is needed to stop reapers.

No I haven't. In fact, multiple times I have said that I expect victory to be possible without it... victory that would cost far more lives in the end, as the narrative implies several times. (Of course, I also suspect it to be possible for mainly story reasons, which is more or less metagamaing.)

You make assumption that TIM is able to do it without other races help.

Never have. In fact, I think I already pointed out to you in particular the idea that I find 'saving collector base' and 'no allies' to be very silly.

I also can't remember you giving a serious response

You make assumption that TIM having collector technology does benefit galaxy.

I made an argument about why. You haven't even tried to make a rebutal about why closing the Reaper-galaxy tech gap does not. That's far more than a simple opinion.

You make assumption knowing what TIM will and will not do. It's all about you assuming what you think is in you mind most logical assumption, but in reality we don't know what TIM does or what future is brining.

Assumptions are predictions with varying support. Inferences are assumptions with the benefit of reasons behind it. TIM having a history of being a highly logical person is the start of any prediction of what he will do.

Refute my inference of TIM's action. Make an argument that TIM will not use the Collector Base tech against the Reapers, letting Humanity suffer far greater losses and risking extinction with the rest of the galaxy.

You keep base, I blow the base, let see what happens in ME3.

Have fun when more people die overall.

And if you feel like sticking around to contest a point, rather than consistently backpeddling and throwing unrelated questions as interference, feel free.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

So this topic came up in the Jack character support thread, and I couldn't really see how to fit my answer on that thread in with the existing topics in this forum since everyone's already waist deep in their debates for one way or another. Plus I tend to think those who post in the debate tend to get fanatically serious about their point of view, of which I'm probably not exempt. So yeah, I shouldn't probably repeat what I said in that thread verbatim into this thread, but screw it. Here it is:

Didn't the Cerberus supporters tell you that the Illusive Man was only going to reverse engineer the Collector base only as a means to defeat the Reapers and would only take select technology solely to benefit mankind's ascension? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png

No. Never have.

The thing about scions, praetorians, and husks is that you kinda need a body to start with. So what are you (by you, I mean the Illusive Man, not axl) to do, pick up all the dead bodies you can since no one else needs them anymore? Or start kidnapping the unwanted, unknown, forgotten creatures of the universe and transmogrify them to a greater purpose? Use them on the next enemy to come after the Reapers, perhaps the Batarians? The Turians?

Ignorring the possibility of readapting scion/husk technology for other purposes, why shouldn't the dead be utilized?

And why go through the effort of kidnapping live subject, alien or otherwise, when, again, the dead can be utilized? One is far simpler, easier, and more feasible than the other. The other more or less starts a war: TIM has yet to start a war with anyone, why would he at such an obviously bad time?

But yeah, if the Illusive Man and Cerberus weren't a factor, might have kept the base. Tell the Salarians about it. I'm sure they would be able to investigate the base in a manner least likely to blow up in our faces. But this is the Mass Effect universe, so odds are no one would have been cautious and thorough in the investigation, someone would have inadvertently turned on the communication system to the Reapers, the Reapers would be listening in the whole time, possibly sending over some indoctrination vibes.

Indoctrination is a field produced by a system, not a radio signal to be transmitted.

Nah, the developers wouldn't punish the renegade choice that severely, if at all. Then the game is all about choices, but half the choices are about shooting yourself in the foot. Or Conrad in the foot. That would make it a stupid game about stupid choices.

Since nearly all objections to the Collector Base on grounds of danger are invented by objectors with no support in-game that the Base is an active risk, why would they punish us for things they gave no suggestion or implication they would punish us for.

[AquiZen]

Yeah. I destroyed it because it's sole purpose is making people into paste.



The Big Nothing



Eloquently, accurately and amusingly put. It was an easy decision if you were going for good surely Also anything to ****** off the Illusive man...his inability to pronounce the "H" in Human was enough to ensure my rebellion.

[Ieldra]

I've stated it elsewhere, I'll do it again:



First, I submit that the decision to destroy the base is not supported by any rational morality. That would be equivalent to destroying a gun because people have been shot with it, or even worse, destroying it even though it could be used against avowed enemies who threaten our lives instead. The moral argument for destroying the base is an irrational one: it is centered on the feeling of disgust that arises when we think about how the base has been used by the Collectors, and the feeling that, for that reason, no good can come from it. That the latter does not follow from the former, though, and the latter isn't necessarily true for any other reason, should be obvious.



Second, I think keeping the base is worth the risk. We don't know what TIM will do with it, but it can hardly be worse than the destruction of all intelligent life in the galaxy. So if there is a chance that the technology contained in the base can help against the Reapers, most of my Shepards will not only not destroy it, but consider it their duty to keep it intact. As the base contains the technology of the very species we are at war with, the chance to discover something helpful is considerable. If, for instance, you want to find out how to defend against indoctrination, you need to know how it works.



Third, against Mordin's argument that it can be damaging to get higher technology too early: the discovery of the Prothean ruins doesn't seem to have resulted in any lasting harm to the human species. It *can* be damaging, but it need not be. In the face of utter destruction, we cannot allow the mere suspicion it might be damaging to make us reject something that might save humanity.



Fourth, the many disasters that accompanied experiments with Reaper technology seem to indicate that it can't be controlled, leading to its being perceived as some unfathomable evil. Against that, I claim that technology is just that: knowledge and machines. Both cannot be evil, and the very term "technology" suggests that it can be understood. If it were not understandable, it would be magic. An SF universe has no magic: however magical the technology may seem, Clarke's law applies. What can be understood, can be controlled. If disasters ensue, you don't give up, but go on being more careful in the future.



Fifth, against the argument that the base only existed to grind humans into paste: there are places on Earth that only exist to shoot missiles with nuclear warheads. I claim that if you had less knowledge than those who built these places, capturing them intact could tell you a lot of otherwise useful things about the nature of matter, radioactivity, nuclear processes in general etc.. One device may exist only for destruction, but the principles on which it was built are not tied to any purpose and have no inherent ethical value.



Sixth, against the argument that we can't understand the base in time to do any good, consider the above scenario: if some 16th century people, not knowing what they're dealing with, filled a nuclear base with gunpowder and blew it up, there's considerable chance they'd spread radioactive fallout over a large area. If you destroy the base without knowing what you destroy, you do not know what you're doing. The risk of destroying it may be equal to the risk of keeping it intact for all we know.



These arguments make keeping the base my standard decision in ME2. Any time I've destroyed the base, I found that the Shepard who did so suddenly ceased to be my character. It seems there are some decisions I consider too stupid to roieplay.



All in all, Legion sums up my thoughts nicely:



Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

[Bigdoser]

Yeah but the thing is the people who tell you to keep the base, they suddenly do a 180 post game and say i think the base is gonna bite you in the ass later =_=