437 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

I wish they'd made the decision less dependent on my having to say "What will Bioware probably do, what won't they do?"

It makes the decision feel less realistic somehow. I know they will probably allow me to defeat the Reapers even if I do destroy the base. "But it might cost us the galaxy!" is all very well and good when I don't know that realistically it probably damn well won't cost us the galaxy.

I know from their foreshadowing TIM will probably do something monstrous with the base and I'll have to deal with that on top of everything else when I didn't really need to. Therefore my distrust for TIM becomes more paramount than the base's importance to the survival of the galaxy.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 28 mai 2010 - 12:27 .

[The Spamming Troll]

ielda2 has it exactly right.

[Ieldra]

Bigdoser wrote...
Yeah but the thing is the people who tell you to keep the base, they suddenly do a 180 post game and say i think the base is gonna bite you in the ass later =_=

Let it. Keeping the base is the only decision I can make with the knowledge I have at that time. If they want to make me reconsider, let them bring convincing arguments. Finding those could prove difficult, though.

And - I just posted the same in the Miranda thread - that every single LI pushes you into the so-called Paragon decision in spite of its very obvious problematic nature is reason enough to resist Bioware's indoctrination...

@AwesomeEffect2:
A very good additional point. I didn't think of that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 mai 2010 - 01:50 .

[Collider]

Not exactly true Ieldra. I believe that Garrus recommends to Shepard to keep the base.

ME wiki:

Depending on the player's response, certain squad mates will react. Should the Paragon response be chosen then Garrus, Legion, Zaeed, Grunt and Mordin will speak in favor of preserving the base, reminding Shepard that it's just data and that destroying it serves no purpose. If the Renegade response is chosen then Tali, Thane, Jacob and Jack while strongly disapprove, reminding Shepard of the sick experiments while Samara and Miranda will have more neutral responses. If the Neutral response is chosen then none of your squad will comment.

Modifié par Collider, 28 mai 2010 - 02:02 .

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Collider wrote...

Not exactly true Ieldra. I believe that Garrus recommends to Shepard to keep the base.

ME wiki:

Depending on the player's response, certain squad mates will react. Should the Paragon response be chosen then Garrus, Legion, Zaeed, Grunt and Mordin will speak in favor of preserving the base, reminding Shepard that it's just data and that destroying it serves no purpose. If the Renegade response is chosen then Tali, Thane, Jacob and Jack while strongly disapprove, reminding Shepard of the sick experiments while Samara and Miranda will have more neutral responses. If the Neutral response is chosen then none of your squad will comment.

 should be reminded of what happened during Tali'Zorah's loyalty mission... keeping parts of inactive geths led to a surprised geth attack of Tali'Zorah's father thus creating a mission as to being Tali'Zorah's loyalty mission for investigating what happened to her father while he was away studying the inactive geth. Keeping a collector's base could be like keeping those inactive geth parts... right? Should be reminded how Cerberus constantly and deliberately sent Shepard into "coincidental" mishaps, and events pertaining the Collectors (Collector's ship, IFF+Legion, and having Ashley/Kaidan ironically on Horizon that was coincidentally being attacked by the collectors... ) and then want to keep a Collector's base!

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 28 mai 2010 - 02:12 .

[Ieldra]

All right, Collider. Somehow I didn't consider Garrus an LI in my mind.

[Collider]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Collider wrote...

Not exactly true Ieldra. I believe that Garrus recommends to Shepard to keep the base.

ME wiki:

Depending on the player's response, certain squad mates will react. Should the Paragon response be chosen then Garrus, Legion, Zaeed, Grunt and Mordin will speak in favor of preserving the base, reminding Shepard that it's just data and that destroying it serves no purpose. If the Renegade response is chosen then Tali, Thane, Jacob and Jack while strongly disapprove, reminding Shepard of the sick experiments while Samara and Miranda will have more neutral responses. If the Neutral response is chosen then none of your squad will comment.

 should be reminded of what happened during Tali's loyalty mission... keeping parts of inactive geths lead to a surprised geth attack of Tali's father thus creating a mission as to being Tali's loyalty mission for investigating what happened. Keeping a collector's base could be like keeping those inactive geth parts... right?

That is part of the reason why I destroyed the base. Reaper technology has a history of indoctrination and being sneaky.

[Ieldra]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Collider wrote...

Not exactly true Ieldra. I believe that Garrus recommends to Shepard to keep the base.

ME wiki:

Depending on the player's response, certain squad mates will react. Should the Paragon response be chosen then Garrus, Legion, Zaeed, Grunt and Mordin will speak in favor of preserving the base, reminding Shepard that it's just data and that destroying it serves no purpose. If the Renegade response is chosen then Tali, Thane, Jacob and Jack while strongly disapprove, reminding Shepard of the sick experiments while Samara and Miranda will have more neutral responses. If the Neutral response is chosen then none of your squad will comment.

 should be reminded of what happened during Tali's loyalty mission... keeping parts of inactive geths lead to a surprised geth attack of Tali's father thus creating a mission as to being Tali's loyalty mission for investigating what happened. Keeping a collector's base could be like keeping those inactive geth parts... right?

Right. But if Rael had been careful and not tried to hurry things because he wanted to recover the homeworld in his lifetime, that wouldn't have happened. The same applies here, even though I can see TIM make the same mistake and hurry things in his rush for human domination.

Not the dangerous technology makes the disaster, but quarian (and human) ambition.

[Nightwriter]

The thing is though, how often does the study of this dangerous technology go right?

Human ambition - more accurately, organic ambition - always screws it up. We're given example after example of how this is true.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Collider wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Collider wrote...

Not exactly true Ieldra. I believe that Garrus recommends to Shepard to keep the base.

ME wiki:

Depending on the player's response, certain squad mates will react. Should the Paragon response be chosen then Garrus, Legion, Zaeed, Grunt and Mordin will speak in favor of preserving the base, reminding Shepard that it's just data and that destroying it serves no purpose. If the Renegade response is chosen then Tali, Thane, Jacob and Jack while strongly disapprove, reminding Shepard of the sick experiments while Samara and Miranda will have more neutral responses. If the Neutral response is chosen then none of your squad will comment.

 should be reminded of what happened during Tali's loyalty mission... keeping parts of inactive geths lead to a surprised geth attack of Tali's father thus creating a mission as to being Tali's loyalty mission for investigating what happened. Keeping a collector's base could be like keeping those inactive geth parts... right?

That is part of the reason why I destroyed the base. Reaper technology has a history of indoctrination and being sneaky.

Correct. Like the Citadel for instance, was a inactive relay used by the reapers to conduct a mass genocide and a surprised invasion. Even though using the Citadel was a great achievement for the galactic community, it could have been a major tool used negatively against them aswell.

Offtopic: Dammit, why did they named Tali'Zorah, "Tali" (or named Liara T'Soni, Liara)... why not name them something else instead?

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 28 mai 2010 - 02:31 .

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Collider wrote...

Not exactly true Ieldra. I believe that Garrus recommends to Shepard to keep the base.

ME wiki:

Depending on the player's response, certain squad mates will react. Should the Paragon response be chosen then Garrus, Legion, Zaeed, Grunt and Mordin will speak in favor of preserving the base, reminding Shepard that it's just data and that destroying it serves no purpose. If the Renegade response is chosen then Tali, Thane, Jacob and Jack while strongly disapprove, reminding Shepard of the sick experiments while Samara and Miranda will have more neutral responses. If the Neutral response is chosen then none of your squad will comment.

 should be reminded of what happened during Tali's loyalty mission... keeping parts of inactive geths lead to a surprised geth attack of Tali's father thus creating a mission as to being Tali's loyalty mission for investigating what happened. Keeping a collector's base could be like keeping those inactive geth parts... right?

Right. But if Rael had been careful and not tried to hurry things because he wanted to recover the homeworld in his lifetime, that wouldn't have happened. The same applies here, even though I can see TIM make the same mistake and hurry things in his rush for human domination.

Not the dangerous technology makes the disaster, but quarian (and human) ambition.

But, acquiring it for means of study could have alot of unknown negative implications that may have not be learned for whatever reason the illusive man "intended" or instructed toward who ever studies it. You should do some of the side missions for Cerberus, alot of their research end up in bloodshed of their own company even (like that one Space station side mission in distress). Take the Reaper IFF mission for a example (acquired reaper/collector's technology that was being studied by Cerberus that served as a disadvantage for the Cerberus employees who were originally studying it, yet turned into the husk you were fighting).

examples; opening scene (being attacked by a reaper vessel), awaking inside of a Cerberus research station that's being attacked, or constantly sent to missions that led to suddenly being attacked by collectors. Why keep a collector's base?

edit* dammit my writing/grammar is horrible, and my laptop keyboard buttons have dyslexia!

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 28 mai 2010 - 02:46 .

[Ieldra]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
Why keep a collector's base? [in the face of Cerberus disasters][...]

Because you're in a war for your very survival against a technologically superior enemy, and you don't throw away any knowledge that could help you, no matter how dangerous. Really, forget your conventional morality for a moment and imagine. Imagine yourself in that situation. Try to get it into your mind what they're dealing with in ME2. Just try. And then tell me again you'll throw away the knowledge contained in the base.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 mai 2010 - 02:35 .

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
Why keep a collector's base? [in the face of Cerberus disasters][...]

Because you're in a war for your very survival against a technologically superior enemy, and you don't throw away any knowledge that could help you, no matter how dangerous. Really, forget your conventional morality for a moment and imagine. Imagine yourself in that situation. Try to get it into your mind what they're dealing with in ME2. Just try. And then tell me again you'll throw away the knowledge.

It's more based upon how you use your trained combat skills/knowledge, utilize what you have/equipped with, and strategize against a opponent in war (prefer the term combat), than to acquiring their entire base just to study it for the claimed sake of "War" (trying to use their technology against them). Picking up your opponent's neat gun is one thing (using their "special" technological tool against them), but taking a entire enemy base what might be a unknown ticking self-destructive time bomb/nuke, or mega futuristic trojan horse (having alot of sleeping collectors...or some unknown zombie disease waiting to be unleashed) is a whole different story!!! What if there were way more Collectors inside of the base whom a few people entering it didn't encounter them yet just waiting to attack again later (because they were sleeping or didn't get the intruder alert memo)?

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 28 mai 2010 - 02:50 .

[Barquiel]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Imagine yourself in that situation.

I would give the base to the council.
- If we find something useful (I am not sure) = every species benefits.
- evidence

I destroyed the base because I didn't want TIM to have it. He never tried to conceal the fact that he'll use the base to ensure human (cerberus?) dominance. How? I doubt he would only study indoctrination...
I'm not saving the galaxy so he can turn it into a human tyranny.

[Ieldra]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
Why keep a collector's base? [in the face of Cerberus disasters][...]

Because you're in a war for your very survival against a technologically superior enemy, and you don't throw away any knowledge that could help you, no matter how dangerous. Really, forget your conventional morality for a moment and imagine. Imagine yourself in that situation. Try to get it into your mind what they're dealing with in ME2. Just try. And then tell me again you'll throw away the knowledge.

It's more based upon how you use your trained combat skills/knowledge, utilize what you have/equipped with, and strategize against a opponent in war (prefer the term combat), than to acquiring their entire base just to study it for the claimed sake of "War" (trying to use their technology against them). Picking up your opponents neat gun is one thing (using their "special" technological tool against them), but taking a entire enemy base what might be a unknown ticking self-destructive time bomb/nuke, or mega futuristic trojan horse (having alot of sleeping collectors...or some unknown zombie disease waiting to be unleashed) is a whole different story!!!

I'm sorry but it is a war. We've barely seen its opening stage. At the end of ME2 you see that swarm of Reapers invading. Do you think what they'll do won't qualify as a war? Really?
As for the unknown zombie diseases and suchlike, that, if present, is exactly what you must study. For if it's here, you can bet your life that the Reapers have it in their standard arsenal and will use it against you in their attacks if you don't find a defense fast enough. And the potential for traps is why you must study it where it is and should not take significant parts away into civilized areas. The thing might blow up in any number of ways. Yes. It's dangerous. But it's more dangerous not to know about what the Reapers are capable of.

@Barquiel:
Yes, that's what I'd attempt to do: give it to the Council. Everyone should know. Also is good evidence not as easy to dismiss. Unfortunately, we are prevented from making the best decision by the heavy hand of Bioware.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 mai 2010 - 02:53 .

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Imagine yourself in that situation.

I would give the base to the council.
- If we find something useful (I am not sure) = every species benefits.
- evidence

I destroyed the base because I didn't want TIM to have it. He never tried to conceal the fact that he'll use the base to ensure human (cerberus?) dominance. How? I doubt he would only study indoctrination...
I'm not saving the galaxy so he can turn it into a human tyranny.

yeah, if it was a order to keep the base because the Alliance Council said so... different story. I'd likely keep it.

Keeping it for ONE complete douche bag guy 's personal interest who constantly sent people in the middle of deliberate RISKY+highly dangerous "coincidences", he can pretty much kiss my ass in that case (as in totally not keeping it).

[FuturePasTimeCE]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Imagine yourself in that situation.

I would give the base to the council.
- If we find something useful (I am not sure) = every species benefits.
- evidence

I destroyed the base because I didn't want TIM to have it. He never tried to conceal the fact that he'll use the base to ensure human (cerberus?) dominance. How? I doubt he would only study indoctrination...
I'm not saving the galaxy so he can turn it into a human tyranny.

No matter which way you put it, the reapers are far worse than Cerberus ever will be.
Reapers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cerberus.

And I'm just putting it too mildly.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cerberus was working with the Reapers somehow... like how Saren was working for/with Sovereign (a Reaper).
 
locating a easy derelict reaper? collector's working for the reapers? Cerberus knowing where the collectors are most of the time or somehow having the collectors show up at random places Cerberus sent you... hmmm? OPENING scene, "We need shepard, be sure it that we don't lose him.", Illusive a**hole.. *Normandy SR1 suddenly attacked by a unknown enemy vessel... Shepard dies and is magically rebuilt*...

I'm seeing a thin line with either parties here, they all look the same in this case.

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 28 mai 2010 - 03:05 .

[Nightwriter]

Yes yes, the Reaper threat is more important than Cerberus, blah blah blah.

So you keep the base. ME3 commences. TIM tells you he has produced valuable technology using the base. You say excellent. The Reaper battle arrives, you cry, "Release the technology!"

... and Cerberus trots out the asari Reaper, the volus Reaper, the turian Reaper, and more, each one of which cost the lives of 50% of their prospective races. Your alien allies in the battle realize they have been betrayed and turn on you. The battle dissolves into chaos. TIM is babbling in your communicator about how this is the vision of the future and there will be a time when the strength of a nation is dictated by how many Reapers you have at your command, this is what real power is!

You kill everybody, even the Reapers. Hooray. Then the new alien Reapers you have created turn on you as one and tell you humanity will be enslaved and that all organic life must be purged. TIM sits in front of his sun with his teacup, "Oh, bother, gone wrong again!"

Thank God it was all worth it.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 28 mai 2010 - 03:10 .

[lovgreno]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Imagine yourself in that situation.

I would give the base to the council.
- If we find something useful (I am not sure) = every species benefits.
- evidence

I destroyed the base because I didn't want TIM to have it. He never tried to conceal the fact that he'll use the base to ensure human (cerberus?) dominance. How? I doubt he would only study indoctrination...
I'm not saving the galaxy so he can turn it into a human tyranny.

yeah, if it was a order to keep the base because the Alliance Council said so... different story. I'd likely keep it.

Keeping it for ONE complete douche bag guy 's personal interest who constantly sent people in the middle of deliberate RISKY+highly dangerous "coincidences", he can pretty much kiss my ass in that case (as in totally not keeping it).

Too bad giving it to the council wasn't an option.
Putting humans in power in the galaxy seems pointless as well. It would lead to turian asari and salarians ganging up on humanity. Empires and dictatorships are extremely inefficent and never lasts long.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...
Why keep a collector's base? [in the face of Cerberus disasters][...]

Because you're in a war for your very survival against a technologically superior enemy, and you don't throw away any knowledge that could help you, no matter how dangerous. Really, forget your conventional morality for a moment and imagine. Imagine yourself in that situation. Try to get it into your mind what they're dealing with in ME2. Just try. And then tell me again you'll throw away the knowledge.

It's more based upon how you use your trained combat skills/knowledge, utilize what you have/equipped with, and strategize against a opponent in war (prefer the term combat), than to acquiring their entire base just to study it for the claimed sake of "War" (trying to use their technology against them). Picking up your opponents neat gun is one thing (using their "special" technological tool against them), but taking a entire enemy base what might be a unknown ticking self-destructive time bomb/nuke, or mega futuristic trojan horse (having alot of sleeping collectors...or some unknown zombie disease waiting to be unleashed) is a whole different story!!!

I'm sorry but it is a war. We've barely seen its opening stage. At the end of ME2 you see that swarm of Reapers invading. Do you think what they'll do won't qualify as a war? Really?
As for the unknown zombie diseases and suchlike, that, if present, is exactly what you must study. For if it's here, you can bet your life that the Reapers have it in their standard arsenal and will use it against you in their attacks if you don't find a defense fast enough. And the potential for traps is why you must study it where it is and should not take significant parts away into civilized areas. The thing might blow up in any number of ways. Yes. It's dangerous. But it's more dangerous not to know about what the Reapers are capable of.

@Barquiel:
Yes, that's what I'd attempt to do: give it to the Council. Everyone should know. Also is good evidence not as easy to dismiss. Unfortunately, we are prevented from making the best decision by the heavy hand of Bioware.

But they already acquired reaper technology even after destroying a reaper in M E 1 named Sovereign (studying his debris, parts, and weaponry). Besides, the Alliance have alot of ships that have massive weaponry... and Sheppard finally have proof that the Reapers do exist to shove it into the face of the always discarding the fact doubtful council members who constantly refuse to prepare and or take action against them...and it wouldn't be a surprised rear end invasion attack that Sovereign wanted, yet a anticipated attack the Alliance and prepare against... 

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Nightwriter wrote...

Yes yes, the Reaper threat is more important than Cerberus, blah blah blah.

So you keep the base. ME3 commences. TIM tells you he has produced valuable technology using the base. You say excellent. The Reaper battle arrives, you cry, "Release the technology!"

... and Cerberus trots out the asari Reaper, the volus Reaper, the turian Reaper, and more, each one of which cost the lives of 50% of their prospective races. Your alien allies in the battle realize they have been betrayed and turn on you. The battle dissolves into chaos. TIM is babbling in your communicator about how this is the vision of the future and there will be a time when the strength of a nation is dictated by how many Reapers you have at your command, this is what real power is!

You kill everybody, even the Reapers. Hooray. Then the new alien Reapers you have created turn on you as one and tell you humanity will be enslaved and that all organic life must be purged. TIM sits in front of his sun with his teacup, "Oh, bother, gone wrong again!"

Thank God it was all worth it.

right. keeping a BASE might have not likely ended up as to being like the whole Reaper IFF research mission.


where as the zombies you're fighting were the very cerberus people studying the acquired
technology. 

[FuturePasTimeCE]

lovgreno wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Imagine yourself in that situation.

I would give the base to the council.
- If we find something useful (I am not sure) = every species benefits.
- evidence

I destroyed the base because I didn't want TIM to have it. He never tried to conceal the fact that he'll use the base to ensure human (cerberus?) dominance. How? I doubt he would only study indoctrination...
I'm not saving the galaxy so he can turn it into a human tyranny.

yeah, if it was a order to keep the base because the Alliance Council said so... different story. I'd likely keep it.

Keeping it for ONE complete douche bag guy 's personal interest who constantly sent people in the middle of deliberate RISKY+highly dangerous "coincidences", he can pretty much kiss my ass in that case (as in totally not keeping it).

Too bad giving it to the council wasn't an option.
Putting humans in power in the galaxy seems pointless as well. It would lead to turian asari and salarians ganging up on humanity. Empires and dictatorships are extremely inefficent and never lasts long.

but with the alliance you're then hearing different perspectives and diplomatic POV's of why and why not keep a opponent's base (like a unanimous agreement)... versus having ONE man who constantly sent you into very questionable scenario's suggest you keep it (wouldn't be doing the job he hired you to do in the first place, which was fight them...and win. destroying the base is completing that original task and winning.)

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 28 mai 2010 - 03:17 .