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[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

I don't think the Illusive Man will ever see Shepard as more than a commodity. One he put considerable investment in and one that he wants to use by whatever means suits his purposes the best. That doesn't make Shepard necessarily expendable, but it does make him more a tool than a human being.

Even Mordin, perhaps one of the most morally sophisticated characters in the game, will say that all interactions between people are for mutual advancement. Everyone wants, and everyone gives to get what they want.

Except for the Collector Base choice, TIM has never contested any plan of Shepard's. A tool is something that does exactly what you want it to, but TIM has, in the games, consistently given others free reign to act how they see fit. That's a far looser hand than the behavior we would normally consider of a superior who treats his subordinates like tools.

The fact that Shepard eventually turned on the Illusive Man, assuming you destroyed the base first, just demonstrates how the Illusive Man gambled on his ability to manipulate the man to do his bidding. He gave Shepard the best ship he could, filled it with honorable Cerberus employees, sent Shepard on a mission that was a direct threat to

For one, you don't have to break ties with Cerberus if you destroy the base. Depending on the dialogue you choose, you can say more or less 'you were making a mistake' and 'you'll fall in line now.'

For another, no one, including TIM, knew about the Collector Base opportunity until it was upon them. You can't really say 'he gambled Shepard would do his bidding' when (a) Shepard never submitted to being subordinate and ( there was no prior consensus about what to do.

He did everything he could to show Shepard that Cerberus was the path of humanity's future. And as soon as Shepard disagreed with him, the Illusive Man went furious.
Okay, whenever someone disagrees with you, reacting with anger is one of the more common reactions for a person to have. Especially when there was something so substantial as the Collector Base to use against "the Reapers and beyond."

...even you should be willing to admit that TIM's anger wasn't simply that Shepard disagreed with him, but what Shepard was doing. If you saw someone doing something contrary to all your morals and goals and they didn't listen to you, you and I both know that your anger about it wouldn't be from an over-domineering attitude that hate's to be refused. You would be angry because their causing a catastrophe.

[Pacifien]

Thing about psychopathy is that one can mimic human emotion as part of the process of manipulating others to do their bidding. So you'd have to consider does the Illusive Man truly love humans or is he coopting other people's own sense of patriotism for humanity as a mechanism for achieving his own goals.

For instance, do you think he'd be content to sit on the sidelines if it turned out that humanity was achieving all the success he says Cerberus aspires towards? Especially if they achieved it in spite of Cerberus, not because of it?

[Meshakhad2]

I destroyed it. I don't need it to defeat the Reapers. That's what my loyal army of rachni is for.

[Eretikas]

Kelmen Wong wrote...
in the Art of War, knowing your enemy is one of the important factor to defeat them.
The Collector Base can help reveal much of the enemy.
Regardless of the Renegade effect, imo its really worth to keep it.
Remember, we all use the enemy IFF code, which enable the team to reach the base.
That's part of the irony.

...Amen. I’ve played all game as pure Paragon and wanted to destroy the base at the end, but human history shows that:

• quickly made decisions based on emotions can lead to lethal consequences
• technology always gave very huge advantage in battles

I’ve decided that saving the base (and posibility to share its technology with alliance) would give better chance of survival against the reapers. It felt like making “lesser of two evils” decision - give advantage to TIM or Reapers.

Modifié par Eretikas, 29 mai 2010 - 10:10 .

[badhut]

Since the collectors were able to track down the normandy because of the reaper IFF wouldnt that mean that the reapers could track down the collector base were ever it went?there could be consequences in ME3 depending on where cerberus brought the ship afterwards.

I think at the end of ME2 if you blow up the base then you are not really cerberus anymore since you turned your back on the illusive man,probably rejoin the alliance or something like that.Either way,you'll probably be on an even playing ground for ME3,bioware can not penalise you for that,would not be fair

[Mafia1882]

Damn, am I the only one who loved Cerberus but still was a full Paragon all the time?

I love Cerberus and TIM, but i destroyed the base, it may have had the indoctrination effects burried inside it, and if someone would stay there for long enough...well, another Saren would have been born...

I needed to destroy it, but i love you, Cerberus! Lets kill the Reapers together in ME3!!

[Arijharn]

You know the simplest method of mitigating the risk of indoctrination would be? (not completely removing it, but diminishing it's effectiveness?) Rotation of base personnel.

[Pacifien]

Arijharn wrote...
You know the simplest method of mitigating the risk of indoctrination would be? (not completely removing it, but diminishing it's effectiveness?) Rotation of base personnel.

I wouldn't even rotate them. Assume anyone sent into the base is at risk of indoctrination. Don't let them back into the general population after that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
You know the simplest method of mitigating the risk of indoctrination would be? (not completely removing it, but diminishing it's effectiveness?) Rotation of base personnel.

I wouldn't even rotate them. Assume anyone sent into the base is at risk of indoctrination. Don't let them back into the general population after that.

Shepard wouldn't be able to do anything, then. He's been in the presence of Reapers and indoctrination devices on more occasions than anyone else, and in closer proximity than most.

[Dean_the_Young]

Meshakhad2 wrote...

I destroyed it. I don't need it to defeat the Reapers. That's what my loyal army of rachni is for.

Your loyal Army of Rachni that were indoctrinated by a single Reaper against the rest of the galaxy?

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

Thing about psychopathy is that one can mimic human emotion as part of the process of manipulating others to do their bidding. So you'd have to consider does the Illusive Man truly love humans or is he coopting other people's own sense of patriotism for humanity as a mechanism for achieving his own goals.

Yes, but we have little grounds to say his stated goals and motivations aren't sincere.

It also begs the question of if he is and always has been, does that invalidate cost-benefit of working with him in the least? You work with Jack who was so bad that criminals on the Purgatory feared her because she had utility. Whatever TIM's status, he's been like it long enough to judge how he acts. If you judge working with him more good than evil without adding 'psycopath' to the list of traits, why would it change the balance?

For instance, do you think he'd be content to sit on the sidelines if it turned out that humanity was achieving all the success he says Cerberus aspires towards? Especially if they achieved it in spite of Cerberus, not because of it?

For the first, no: people who push towards a fundamentally vague goal don't stop at 'enough.' He would be pleased, and he would likely push for more, likely for the same reason a happily married husband does not say 'enough' and leave his wife, but continues to love and make more happiness.

I would, however, see a difference of actions. The actions and pressing motivation of a survivalist at threat are far different from when a survivalist is more or less secure.

For the second, there is no support to say that the Alliance's gains are entirely despite of Cerberus. Cerberus does many things and passes the benefits on to the Alliance as needed whether you, Shepard, like them or not. The Normandy (both of them) were not build despite Cerberus, the Collectors were not stopped despite them, even the Reapers.

Cerberus isn't (hasn't been) out to be appreciated by the public. It's a group that believes in and appreciates itself. It will continue to do things too dangerous, too illegal, and too much of many things that would keep the Alliance from doing them, and then work to pass on those successes to the benefit of humanity.

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
I wouldn't even rotate them. Assume anyone sent into the base is at risk of indoctrination. Don't let them back into the general population after that.

Shepard wouldn't be able to do anything, then. He's been in the presence of Reapers and indoctrination devices on more occasions than anyone else, and in closer proximity than most.

I know. And who knows what you would have gotten in bringing him back from the dead, but they did it anyway. Heavy risks...

[drak4806.2]

i agree with you Dean. and by the way i don't tim completly but i trust him enough to give him the base. 

[armass]

Human history is full of power hungry men that would love to gain such power for themselves, they can claim it is for humanity, for the greater good etc... but in the end all they think about is themselves. When I look at TIM, hear what he has to say, look him in the eyes, read his face, I can safely say I did the right thing in blowing that floating abomination of a base to kingdom come.

I wouldn't give Hitler the blueprints for atomic bomb, would you?

Modifié par armass, 31 mai 2010 - 06:19 .

[STG]

Well I destroyed the base and told TIM to F-off. According to Jacob Cerberus isn't pleased and will attack the Normandy soon.



Sounds like it's in "humanity's" best interest to stop the only guy who is working to save the day.

[Dean_the_Young]

armass wrote...

Human history is full of power hungry men that would love to gain such power for themselves, they can claim it is for humanity, for the greater good etc... but in the end all they think about is themselves. When I look at TIM, hear what he has to say, look him in the eyes, read his face, I can safely say I did the right thing in blowing that floating abomination of a base to kingdom come.

I wouldn't give Hitler the blueprints for atomic bomb, would you?

If the consequence was facing Atilla the Hun with 21st century technology with no atomic bomb? There is bad and there is much, much worse.

Ignoring that TIM isn't Hitler by any means (lack of racial superiority complex, desire to conquer and take alien colonies, demand for public and open opinion control, inclination to genocide), there can easily be things and people worse than Hitler. Hitler is not the end-all evil guy. Even for the 20th century that title is more deserving to go to Pol Pot, who couldn't even be said to have genocided people other than his own.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 31 mai 2010 - 06:28 .

[szaszpetya]

yeah i too destroyed the base, because i think that thing isn't worth keeping, and it's an awful thing, it had cost a lot of lives alredy

[FROST4584]

I am a full paragon, and saved the base everytime. I don't see a real reason to destory the colector base outright. Alot of information could be gathered about the Reapers and how to beat them. Also it seems like a betrayal to the people that lost their lives at the base and the galaxy, not to use it to undercover infomation. Last but not least, you finally have the proof that you need to prove to the milky way that the Reaper threat is real. One last thing using reaper tech against the reapers has already proven useful

1. Thanx cannon
2. EDI
3. Mordin used collector tech to make a countermeasure against the seeker swarms
and maybe more that I am missing.

So destorying the Collector base is the hypocritical from both the player point of view and the writters  of ME2 and ME3 since you've been using reaper tech from start to finish of the game.

The base is worth the risk, since the fate of the galaxy is at hand.

I'm not pro Cerberus, I'm pro Anti Reaper. I don't agree with Ceberus's ideals, but they are getting things done in dealing with the Reaper threat.

Modifié par FROST4584, 31 mai 2010 - 07:24 .

[PillarBiter]

Saving the base just makes sense. I mean, in the end, you see thousands upon thousands of reapers. And there are maybe what, a maximum of 50 dreadnoughts in the galaxy? If we don't have the tech, we should die. Frankly, I'm quite curious to see how we survive without it.

That said, I do have some contingecy plans. First up, i romance kelly. Make her a doublespy to work against TIM. And second, i have the incriminating info in my ship, to blackmail at any given time, and third, I got a heat clip with TIM's name on it. Jut in case.

[megatron999]

On My first playthrough I choose to save the base after actually listening to Zaeed/Garrus who insisted it had major benefits.



I think it is the right decision as Sheperd needs all the help it can get. The council will never Trust Cerberaus or you for that matter and constantly treat you like a stupid Idiot.

[Nightwriter]

At first, I saved the base. It was my strongest natural instinct - take advantage of an opportunity, use the enemy's knowledge against them.

But as the scene progressed after I made the decision and the game continued, I became steadily more uneasy until I reloaded and destroyed it.

[Asheer_Khan]

Sometimes i wonder how many truth is in this entire Rachni wars stories... since what we can learn (and Queen was actually an egg when war ragged on so it's natural that she could really not known why Rachni attack in first place) is story delivered by ONLY ONE side of that war (aka Asari, Salarians and Krogans) and that factor made those stories rather as same problematic for me as for Council accepting truth that Reapers ante portas...



Moreover... how someone so bloodthirsty and vicious could ask you to kill her own childs because they posses to big threat for outside world?

And before you say that she wanted to win my sympathy... sorry but wrong train.



And last thing... by killing her you removed from the world only species ABLE to detect indoctrination waves (dark song or sour note as she called them) and since she known them Rachni can serve as not only indoctrination detectors but as shields against such too.



I still think that Queen somehow helped Benezia to break for a fraction of time indoctrination shackles but she was alone against full might of the reaper so she couldn't shield Benezia in long time, but what if you could have for example fully grow Rachni warriors posesing so powerful telephatic ability that they could easy block indoctrination waves from reaching your ships or land troops?



Of course this is just my theory and i don't expect that ME 3 will address this issue at all, but there was too many coincidents regarding rachni in general for me to not starting pondering whole matter.

[Nightwriter]

Well, someone could just make the counterargument that she simply doesn't care about her children and it just means she's even more evil, because she sees them as expendable. Though I don't believe that.

And yes, I too considered that everything I knew about the rachni was extremely one-sided. When I was making the decision I kept thinking, what do we know about them, really? Nothing.

I don't think the rachni are especially resistant to indoctrination or that they can stop it. Consider that the entire rachni species was controlled by indoctrination in the wars, children and adults, workers and queens. They may be able to sense it, but no more than the asari could, I imagine. Even we can sense it, in our way - we know when someone is acting strangely or behaving oddly.

[Dean_the_Young]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

And last thing... by killing her you removed from the world only species ABLE to detect indoctrination waves (dark song or sour note as she called them) and since she known them Rachni can serve as not only indoctrination detectors but as shields against such too.

...every species we've seen undergo indoctrination has been able to detect it. The Rachni heard it as a "sour yellow note." Humans hear it as 'whispers' in their head. Salarians are similar.

The Rachni could not, however, resist it, anymore than anyone else. They make no better sensors than an attentive human, and certainly don't make shields against it.

I still think that Queen somehow helped Benezia to break for a fraction of time indoctrination shackles but she was alone against full might of the reaper so she couldn't shield Benezia in long time, but what if you could have for example fully grow Rachni warriors posesing so powerful telephatic ability that they could easy block indoctrination waves from reaching your ships or land troops?

How could the Queen have done such a thing when Benezia had just come upon her and had shielded her mind away well before reaching Noveria?

If Rachni were capable of blocking/stopping indoctrination, why did the Queen let Benezia fall back under indoctrination?

[Nightwriter]

In fact I would think rachni would be even more vulnerable to indoctrination. In theory, if you indoctrinate the queen, you gain control of the entire race.

I've often wondered if this is why they prefer insect races, which tend toward hive minds.

But the only way I could see the rachni being useful in this regard is if they could touch other people telepathically and thereby sense the taint of indoctrination in their minds. So far they only seem to be able to do this with asari, who are already telepathic.