437 réponses à ce sujet

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you read the Derilect Reaper AAR, it mentions that Cerberus was drafting new protocols to deal with passive indoctrination fields like with the Derilect Reaper. Even ignorring that there was never any indication that there was indoctrination risk at the Collector Base, Cerberus already has plans to deal with any passive effect. That means no Husk self-sacrifice, and that Indoctrination can be studied from the tech itself in order to develop countermeasures.

Passive indoctrination a valid fear, but it's one that was already overcome by Cerberus.

That is a bold statement when the only thing Cerberus learnt on the derelict Reaper was what did not protect the research team. Just like giving your guinea pigs some vitamines and immune boosters will not protect them against gamma rays.

[Samurai_Dom]

I blew it up! 

Modifié par Samurai_Dom, 19 avril 2010 - 12:17 .

[Wildecker]

On topic, had the American Indians captured a colonial shipyard in 1700, would it have helped them to build bigger canoes? Maybe.
Would it have granted them the power to drive off the Royal Navy?

Modifié par Wildecker, 19 avril 2010 - 12:19 .

[FlintlockJazz]

My Shepard: Will you use it to create new reapers?

TIM: Just think of what we can do with it!

Me: That's not what my Shepard asked TIM, it was a yes or no question and you answered it the same why modern politicians answer yes/no questions without actually answering it.



This was what swayed me in the end, if he can't give me a straight answer then that means the answer is yes. As for taking on the reapers, its pretty clear (in my opinion) that the reaper base has nothing, and fighting two fronts (the reapers and TIM with human reapers) is not a good plan. I think its pretty clear we're gonna have to destroy the Mass Relay network and remove all reapertech soon, since it all seems geared up to destroy us.



Saying it is necessary to win is what people tell themselves to justify doing something, if we can't defeat the reapers without the base then I don't think we could defeat them with the base unless we get several centuries to study it before they arrive and have some miracle method of not getting indoctrinated, because that is what is going to happen in my opinion.

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...
Your analogy doesn't work.
The American indians had NO naval experience. The species of the galaxy
however do have some idea what they're doing and have already
successfully reverse-engineered several Reaper technologies.

The species of the galaxy know how to use the mass relays. They have a vague idea what the relays do without understanding their operations, they suspect that the relays can do more than they know, and they have not tried to re-create a relay with their own technology.
So what will the species of the galaxy do when the Reapers return and shut down the relays with their master override?

Modifié par Wildecker, 19 avril 2010 - 12:31 .

[Lake88]

I blew up the base on both my renegade and paragon playthroughs. But I did make 1 extra playthrough that kept the base just so I can import over to ME3 and see what happens.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wildecker wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

A lot of the bad things that people are agast about Cerberus doing, such as Jack, Akuze, and so on, were actually done back when Cerberus was still officially part of the Alliance. Which not only makes the Alliance responsible, but also the Citadel as well, because the Council is responsible for its member actions in the same way (and, let's face it, the Council has it's own great list of dirty laundry). If you object to giving the Base to Cerberus, there really isn't anyone in the Galaxy you could justify giving the base to.

In essence you're explaining that the United Nations are to blame for Guantanamo and Stalin's Gulags. Because at the respective dates the countries running those camps were member states of the UN, and the UN Just Let It Happen. Wow.

Well, they (the UN) did let it happen. They certainly didn't stop either of the US or the Soviet Union, or a great number of member states who have done nasty things. As far as holding it's member states responsible for violations of its own decrees, the UN is certainly inept when it isn't actively collaborating.

Barring the point that UN doesn't supersede nations while the Council does, it's an illustration of the argument of responsibility and culpability. Many people have held TIM personally responsible for, say, Jack, saying that even if he didn't know about it all it means is that he's inept and he's still the boss and the buck doesn't stop below. However, those people willfully blind themselves to the logical continuation of their own argument: the Alliance was still in control and over Cerberus, and the Council likewise superscedes the Alliance. Any argument of universal responsibility up the chain of authority has to carry it all the way to be honest.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
However, those people willfully blind themselves to the logical continuation of their own argument: the Alliance was still in control and over Cerberus, and the Council likewise superscedes the Alliance. Any argument of universal responsibility up the chain of authority has to carry it all the way to be honest.

No, the Alliance is not in control of Cerberus, it is a separate organisation run and monitored purely by TIM, there is no one above him in Cerberus and nothing is above Cerberus.  TIM also personally oversees all Cerberus operations, hence why there are only ever about three groups running at any one time, and so him failing to monitor Jack raises serious questions since the whole point of TIM is that he is a control freak who likes to know everything that is going on.

[Dean_the_Young]

Until about 6 months before ME1, Cerberus was still an 'official' black ops group of the Alliance. While TIM was involved and influential for quite some time, it doesn't change that the Alliance was still in charge and responsible for over watch, and the Council higher than that. Jack, Akuze, the E-Zero accidents, and more, all were done under the perview of the Alliance.

Considering how much of a hands-off manager the Illusive Man is, calling him a control freak is counter to almost everything we've seen of him. He gives a mission, throws the resources he can afford, and leaves it to the operatives. Yes, he likes to be informed, but when the data he's sent is deliberately falsified, he isn't going to have an accurate picture.

It isn't that TIM would have even  necessarily had a problem with what the cell did with Jack, but it's pretty clear he did not condone what happened.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 avril 2010 - 01:23 .

[Brako Shepard]

I'm way to paragon to allow the Illusive man get his sneaky mitts on some reaper tech. I get the Impression that Illusive man is a huge racist towards anything non-human, and that is just a bad idea for a weak society like the human race.

[Dean_the_Young]

Brako Shepard wrote...

I'm way to paragon to allow the Illusive man get his sneaky mitts on some reaper tech. I get the Impression that Illusive man is a huge racist towards anything non-human, and that is just a bad idea for a weak society like the human race.

He's not racist, he's a xeno-nationalist, just like just about everyone else in the game. The Council is an alliance of xeno-nationalists as well, though they hide behind a veneer of multi-lateralism.

TIM is human-first. That does not mean human-only, but it does mean that TIM will do what he's always said he will do. TIM will take the Reaper technology, use it against the Reapers, and then use it to establish humanity in a dominant position so that the rest of the galaxy won't be able to beat us. If an alien government accepts that state of affairs, TIM would have no problem with them.

When it comes down to it, TIM is painfully simple and straightforward, albeit in a way that many have a problem with understanding.

[Major Truth]

What's the right thing to do, blow the base or hand it over to The Illusive Man?, to be honest their is no way to answer this question. Credit where credit is due to Bioware here, as they've written this in a way, that either scenario could be the "Right thing to do" or could cause catastrophic events

Like the original poster, I initially kept the base (on paragon) but after TIM's comments and Miranda of all people expressing their concern over keeping the base, I made sure that it was blown to pieces the next time around

I saw the below as the pro's and con's to the decision of blowing the base

Pro's
* Initially the mission was always about destroying the base and just trying to survive. To change your plans at the last minute without proper time to look into the issue properly is inadvisable. Stick to the what was initially agreed
* The Cerberus members of your crew don't even believe its a good idea to keep the base
* If the base were ever recaptured your back to square one
* Your not familiar with the base or its technology, their could be bugs, security traps etc that could infiltrate your own systems. The Reapers/Collectors may have foreseen this eventuality.

Cons
* You are at War and any gap in technology gives a heavy advantage to the reapers
* You know very little about the reapers, where as they have observed the galaxy evolve. Knowledge is power. It would be of great help defeating them if their motives were known
* The collector base is hard to get to and hard to attack.
* Any technology found would be the property of Humanity

I think it all comes down to "Do you trust TIM and Cerberus". While I do believe (for the moment at least) that he has humanities best interest at heart I also believe he will advance humanity at the expense of other people. I don't think he would have any qualms about destroying the Quarian Flotila if he thought it would advance humanity.

Ultimately I'm not going to give him a power that I may never be able to take back !

Modifié par Major Truth, 19 avril 2010 - 01:30 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Until about 6 months before ME1, Cerberus was still an 'official' black ops group of the Alliance. While TIM was involved and influential for quite some time, it doesn't change that the Alliance was still in charge and responsible for over watch, and the Council higher than that. Jack, Akuze, the E-Zero accidents, and more, all were done under the perview of the Alliance.

Source please, Ascension seems to contradict this.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Considering how much of a hands-off manager the Illusive Man is, calling him a control freak is counter to almost everything we've seen of him. He gives a mission, throws the resources he can afford, and leaves it to the operatives. Yes, he likes to be informed, but when the data he's sent is deliberately falsified, he isn't going to have an accurate picture.

It isn't that TIM would have even  necessarily had a problem with what the cell did with Jack, but it's pretty clear he did not condone what happened.

EDI tells you that he keeps the numbers low to keep an eye on everything.  He may work hands-off, but only when he's certain that they will do things his way, he likes to know everything that is going on and will immediately jump in the moment things are not going his way.  He likes to be in control, he just also likes to not appear to be in control as well.

As to him not condoning what happened to Jack, I don't think it is clear.  TIM is a liar, he will lie whenever it is convenient and even when it is not just to keep things to his chest.  Ascension again shows that Jack's treatment isn't unusual for Cerberus, and that if they had something to gain by doing so they would be dissecting Jack's brain right about now.

[WandererRTF]

Either play it or then just read about it... masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/UNC:_Colony_of_the_Dead

...Accessing it will reveal that the entire pioneer team is dead, and whatever 'samples' were provided to Cerberus (possibly referring to the Dragon's Teeth scattered around) effectively murdered dozens of people. Acquiring this information ends the assignment.

In short Cerberus has fooled around with Reaper tech for at least 2 years without a faintest clue on how it really affects people as proven by the huskification of the derelict Reaper team.

And IIRC the after action report hinted that the health data could be used to understand the indoctrination process.. Nothing on how to make some one resistant to it and even makes it clear that even Cerberus has no ideas on how to resist it. And TIM even knew what to expect (and its kinda doubtful he would have voluntarily lost team trying to acquire item as critical as the IFF). And given that even minor reaper artifacts have been enough to indoctrinate whole science teams and/or freighter crews it would be rather naive to assume that no such artifacts would be on the 'reaper hub' (i.e. the Collector Base). Not to mention other problematic material like possible Reaper/Collector AIs or just viruses.

Loss of Cerberus team on the Reaper vessel unfortunate but unsurprising. Will use team's health records for comparisons against husks encountered on Reaper for possible insight into indoctrination and husk conversion process.

Modifié par WandererRTF, 19 avril 2010 - 01:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Source please, Ascension seems to contradict this.

Mass Effect 1, multiple times. Admiral Kohaku mentions that Cerberus went rogue roughly six monthes ago, meaning it wasn't rogue before then. In the Corporal Tombs quest, Admiral Hacket talks about how Alliance scientists were conducting experiments at the time of the Akuze massacre. In the Codex, IIRC, one of the entries on Cerberus mentions how counterterrorism experts have noticed a change in tactics by Cerberus, switching from old methods to new ones including arms development and naval buildups, leading them to conclude a recent change in leadership. That is consistent with TIM's assuming total control of Cerberus, leading to things such as building the Normandy and the arms/armor development that you see in ME2.

EDI tells you that he keeps the numbers low to keep an eye on everything.

EDI's numbers are also wildly inconsistent with everything we know about Cerberus prior to it, leading to either serious credibility problems or realization that EDI's data is not as absolute as it appears. One case, for example, is the number of Cerberus personel: the number given isn't large enough to account for Cerberus's intelligence network, let alone the multitude of research projects and such we saw. This would mean that either EDI's numbers are inconsistent, or that Cerberus has categories of personel far greater than simply 'Agents' and however else she described them.

Of course, Mass Effect has 2 always been weak on scale, but-

He may work hands-off, but only when he's certain that they will do things his way, he likes to know everything that is going on and will immediately jump in the moment things are not going his way.  He likes to be in control, he just also likes to not appear to be in control as well.

...you just described hands-off managing in general: you let the work go on until something bad happens, at which point you step in to correct it.

Of course, when the information you rely on to know what is going on is tampered with, there never is any opportunity to jump in in the first place.

As to him not condoning what happened to Jack, I don't think it is clear.  TIM is a liar, he will lie whenever it is convenient and even when it is not just to keep things to his chest.

Fortunately, however, we don't have to take TIM's word from it. We can take the private logs of the researchers themselves from Jack's loyalty mission.

Ascension again shows that Jack's treatment isn't unusual for Cerberus, and that if they had something to gain by doing so they would be dissecting Jack's brain right about now.

Cerberus is known to be capable of great cruelty, but at the same time great generosity. It is not simply consistently evil.

To play Devil's Advocate: TIM isn't stupid. He wants a super warrior, but more importantly he wants one that will be loyal to humanity, not one that justifiably hates Cerberus and would crash human space stations. Had TIM known what was being done, he would have stepped in to stop the researchers in order to salvage some chance of producing a loyal ultimate biotic... because that would certainly be in humanity's interest, and is almost certainly what he intended in the first place through ideological teaching and such.

[Dean_the_Young]

WandererRTF wrote...

Either play it or then just read about it... masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/UNC:_Colony_of_the_Dead

...Accessing it will reveal that the entire pioneer team is dead, and whatever 'samples' were provided to Cerberus (possibly referring to the Dragon's Teeth scattered around) effectively murdered dozens of people. Acquiring this information ends the assignment.

In short Cerberus has fooled around with Reaper tech for at least 2 years without a faintest clue on how it really affects people as proven by the huskification of the derelict Reaper team.

And IIRC the after action report hinted that the health data could be used to understand the indoctrination process.. Nothing on how to make some one resistant to it and even makes it clear that even Cerberus has no ideas on how to resist it.

I seem to recall after some mission that Cerberus starts a policy of rotating agents. Certainly Shepard never goes crazy, and he's been around Reaper and Collector tech alot. Cerberus  could always used unmanned drones and such... if there was an Indoctrination risk in the first place.

And TIM even knew what to expect (and its kinda doubtful he would have voluntarily lost team trying to acquire item as critical as the IFF). And given that even minor reaper artifacts have been enough to indoctrinate whole science teams and/or freighter crews it would be rather naive to assume that no such artifacts would be on the 'reaper hub' (i.e. the Collector Base). Not to mention other problematic material like possible Reaper/Collector AIs or just viruses.

I disagree that the Reaper base is set to indoctrinate, because why would it? It's defenses were entirely focused on the Relay and the debris field, and it didn't even have exterior defenses. It never had any reason or need to set indoctrination traps (Dragon's Teeth don't need willing subjects), and the Human Reaper is dead.

But, more importantly, you're running away from the problem at the time you need to handle it most. Indoctrination and Reaper viruses aren't problems that will go away if you destroy the base. They are problems that will return when the rest of the Reapers show up. Now is the point in time when it's best to tackle and overcome them, regardless the cost now, because however much or little it hurts now, it will be magnitudes worse when the Reapers arrive and you have to start from scratch right when genocide begins.

If there's a defense from Indoctrination, it will come from studying it, and that will happen either under controlled circumstances or during the Reaper invasion. If there are Reaper AI warfare viruses, you can start understanding them now or when they are accompanied by super dreadnaughts bent on killing you while you deal with them.

If your objection to the Collector Base is that it's dangerous and will kill people now in order to study it, you're only going to be accused of short sightedness if you forget that you'll have to deal with the exact same challenges when the Reapers come by.

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 Admiral Kohaku mentions that Cerberus went rogue roughly six monthes ago, meaning it wasn't rogue before then. In the Corporal Tombs quest, Admiral Hacket talks about how Alliance scientists were conducting experiments at the time of the Akuze massacre. In the Codex, IIRC, one of the entries on Cerberus mentions how counterterrorism experts have noticed a change in tactics by Cerberus, switching from old methods to new ones including arms development and naval buildups, leading them to conclude a recent change in leadership. That is consistent with TIM's assuming total control of Cerberus, leading to things such as building the Normandy and the arms/armor development that you see in ME2.

The FBI never" went rogue". However, the way J. Edgar Hoover ran it shows that answering to the government was pretty low on his list of priorities. And standing down to democratically elected presidents didn't even show on it.

Modifié par Wildecker, 19 avril 2010 - 02:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

As an aside, I'd like to point out that accusations that TIM will build a Human Reaper himself is rather silly, considering that the number of humans to do so (Earth) would require genociding the very species he's promoting, and for a form of existence he's been fighting all this time.



When TIM says he wants Reaper tech, he isn't saying he wants to be a Reaper.

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As an aside, I'd like to point out that accusations that TIM will build a Human Reaper himself is rather silly, considering that the number of humans to do so (Earth) would require genociding the very species he's promoting, and for a form of existence he's been fighting all this time.

When TIM says he wants Reaper tech, he isn't saying he wants to be a Reaper.

Oh PLEASE. With eleven billion humans on Earth alone, we surely can shave off a couple millions here and there for the survival of the species ..." just think of what we can do!"

[Dean_the_Young]

Wildecker wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 Admiral Kohaku mentions that Cerberus went rogue roughly six monthes ago, meaning it wasn't rogue before then. In the Corporal Tombs quest, Admiral Hacket talks about how Alliance scientists were conducting experiments at the time of the Akuze massacre. In the Codex, IIRC, one of the entries on Cerberus mentions how counterterrorism experts have noticed a change in tactics by Cerberus, switching from old methods to new ones including arms development and naval buildups, leading them to conclude a recent change in leadership. That is consistent with TIM's assuming total control of Cerberus, leading to things such as building the Normandy and the arms/armor development that you see in ME2.

The FBI never" went rogue". However, the way J. Edgar Hoover ran it shows that answering to the government was pretty low on his list of priorities. And standing down to democratically elected persons didn't even show on it.

So... your counter to the claim that Cerberus went independent of the Systems Alliance is to give an analogy implying that Cerberus is still part of the Systems Alliance, albeit one that doesn't follow all it's commands (much like the FBI).

I thought you were the one arguing that the Alliance wasn't responsible for Cerberus's actions?

[Dean_the_Young]

Wildecker wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As an aside, I'd like to point out that accusations that TIM will build a Human Reaper himself is rather silly, considering that the number of humans to do so (Earth) would require genociding the very species he's promoting, and for a form of existence he's been fighting all this time.

When TIM says he wants Reaper tech, he isn't saying he wants to be a Reaper.

Oh PLEASE. With eleven billion humans on Earth alone, we surely can shave off a couple millions here and there for the survival of the species ..." just think of what we can do!"

Millions of humans was barely enough to get what we saw, and the Human Reaper was a larvae. An actual Reaper would have required nearly all those 11 billion people (most of whom are still on Earth).

Really, why do people insist on treating TIM like Hitler when Cerberus has never pursued Genocide while the Council has pretty much made it a matter of policy?