437 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mass Effect 1, multiple times. Admiral Kohaku mentions that Cerberus went rogue roughly six monthes ago, meaning it wasn't rogue before then. In the Corporal Tombs quest, Admiral Hacket talks about how Alliance scientists were conducting experiments at the time of the Akuze massacre. In the Codex, IIRC, one of the entries on Cerberus mentions how counterterrorism experts have noticed a change in tactics by Cerberus, switching from old methods to new ones including arms development and naval buildups, leading them to conclude a recent change in leadership. That is consistent with TIM's assuming total control of Cerberus, leading to things such as building the Normandy and the arms/armor development that you see in ME2.

Hmm, then there is some conflict in the lore itself there, not gonna say plothole but I'd need to take another look before I can comment further.  If it is the case that it broke away 6 months ago, then yes it does make the Alliance look bad.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
EDI's numbers are also wildly inconsistent with everything we know about Cerberus prior to it, leading to either serious credibility problems or realization that EDI's data is not as absolute as it appears. One case, for example, is the number of Cerberus personel: the number given isn't large enough to account for Cerberus's intelligence network, let alone the multitude of research projects and such we saw. This would mean that either EDI's numbers are inconsistent, or that Cerberus has categories of personel far greater than simply 'Agents' and however else she described them.

I think the groups just refer to the 'projects' Cerberus runs, but considering how long some of them are supposedly have been running for and what Cerberus has supposedly been involved in then it does seem weird.  The point of it was though that TIM liked to keep control on everything happening personally.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Of course, Mass Effect has 2 always been weak on scale, but-

you just described hands-off managing in general: you let the work go on until something bad happens, at which point you step in to correct it.

I don't think I explained it well, I mean TIM himself is obsessed with keeping ultimate control, he may appear to be letting others make the decisions as long as they make the choices he wants.  For instance, his relationship with Shepard is a prime example of this: Shepard is supposedly in charge yet TIM is constantly jumping in to tell Shepard to go do something or giving false information to trick him into doing things (Collector Ship for instance) while 'leaking' information to others to isolate him from former crewmembers, etc.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Of course, when the information you rely on to know what is going on is tampered with, there never is any opportunity to jump in in the first place.

Fortunately, however, we don't have to take TIM's word from it. We can take the private logs of the researchers themselves from Jack's loyalty mission.

The logs never state what it is they are withholding from him, just that they are.  I doubt they were able to cover up the entire project from him, that seems to oppose what we know about him and his information network, and besides, what were they supposed to be doing there if it wasn't what they were actually doing?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Cerberus is known to be capable of great cruelty, but at the same time great generosity. It is not simply consistently evil.

To play Devil's Advocate: TIM isn't stupid. He wants a super warrior, but more importantly he wants one that will be loyal to humanity, not one that justifiably hates Cerberus and would crash human space stations. Had TIM known what was being done, he would have stepped in to stop the researchers in order to salvage some chance of producing a loyal ultimate biotic... because that would certainly be in humanity's interest, and is almost certainly what he intended in the first place through ideological teaching and such.

True, I do believe that Cerberus truly believes it is helping humanity with these actions, though human supremacy seems a bit far.  I don't think he would have stepped in had he known what was going on for those reasons however, as Jack's loyalty is not important.  They wanted to unlock the biotic potential and then use their discoveries to train up loyal biotics with it since a single biotic, no matter how powerful, is going to help human dominance.

[Alphyn]

I blew it up. And I would again, and again, and again.



Millions of lives were lost at it, and TIM would only use it against us at some point.

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Millions of humans was barely enough to get what we saw, and the Human Reaper was a larvae. An actual Reaper would have required nearly all those 11 billion people (most of whom are still on Earth).

I doubt those numbers. Let's do some math ... assume a pod to carry a harvested human to the base for processing is 2 m long, 1 m wide and .5 m high. That would require 1m³ of space per human.
To store away one million humans therefore requires at the very least a volume of 1,000,000 m³ if packed together with absolutely no space between the pods. A cube with sides of 100 m.
The Collector cruiser was big, sure, but we've seen a lot of empty space when we walked through that vessel. And let's not forget the engines and its gun. So my guess is the cruiser can carry about one million people per run, at best. And it hit colonies on the frontier, with tens of thousands of settlers, but not millions or more.

Carrying one billion beople would require a storage cube with sides of one kilometer, if packed tight. The cruiser is considerably smaller than that. Hell, Sovereign has less volume than that cube, and it had spacious halls inside!

Shepard and his team were impressed, but overestimated the number of possible victims by several magnitudes.
 

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 Admiral Kohaku mentions that Cerberus went rogue roughly six monthes ago, meaning it wasn't rogue before then. In the Corporal Tombs quest, Admiral Hacket talks about how Alliance scientists were conducting experiments at the time of the Akuze massacre. In the Codex, IIRC, one of the entries on Cerberus mentions how counterterrorism experts have noticed a change in tactics by Cerberus, switching from old methods to new ones including arms development and naval buildups, leading them to conclude a recent change in leadership. That is consistent with TIM's assuming total control of Cerberus, leading to things such as building the Normandy and the arms/armor development that you see in ME2.

The FBI never" went rogue". However, the way J. Edgar Hoover ran it shows that answering to the government was pretty low on his list of priorities. And standing down to democratically elected persons didn't even show on it.

So... your counter to the claim that Cerberus went independent of the Systems Alliance is to give an analogy implying that Cerberus is still part of the Systems Alliance, albeit one that doesn't follow all it's commands (much like the FBI).

I thought you were the one arguing that the Alliance wasn't responsible for Cerberus's actions?

My point is that the Alliance probably had no idea of the extents of Cerberus' operations and experiments while Cerberus still operated under their colors. And when the people in charge found out, Cerberus went "rogue" before their plugs got pulled. Just like that FBI COINTELPRO program - "You did WHAT!?!"

[Dean_the_Young]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Hmm, then there is some conflict in the lore itself there, not gonna say plothole but I'd need to take another look before I can comment further.  If it is the case that it broke away 6 months ago, then yes it does make the Alliance look bad.

To be fair, I do think they changed course mid-step in regards to Cerberus. Certainly the depictions between 1 and 2 clash between incompetent meaningless supervillainy and greater good idealogue group. The way I square the circle is that TIM has been a lead player all the while, certainly having a great deal of influence, but 'officially' broke away when he felt secure and that the Alliance wasn't using Cerberus correctly.

I don't think I explained it well, I mean TIM himself is obsessed with keeping ultimate control, he may appear to be letting others make the decisions as long as they make the choices he wants.  For instance, his relationship with Shepard is a prime example of this: Shepard is supposedly in charge yet TIM is constantly jumping in to tell Shepard to go do something or giving false information to trick him into doing things (Collector Ship for instance) while 'leaking' information to others to isolate him from former crewmembers, etc.

Part of that, unfortunately, is that TIM is a driver of the story plot, and ME is only an interactive story, not a full out RPG. It never was a game that allowed you full control of your direction, only in what order you took certain missions. As a character, TIM is what he says: he gives you options, and let's you choose. That his options are the only options, that's a matter of ME being a game. It has to move the plot.

Does TIM go behind your back? Yes. But he's also upfront about it, and he pretty much told you he would from the get go. It's a style called 'following from the front', if you understand the reference.

Why did TIM lie about the Collector Ship? He judged it had to be done, and I think we can agree the ship was necessary. Why did he have to lie about it? Well, he's open about that to: he didn't want to give it away and lose this one chance. While the delivery and execution story-wise was contrived, it's not an unreasonable thing. I suspected it was a trap, but I didn't (wouldn't have) told my team for the same reason.

Leaking word of Shepard also had a rational behind it: more than a mere propoganda win for Cerberus, but for leading the Collectors to an engagement. Consider: word of Shepard's return arrives, and a rumor that Shepard will be on Planet (whatever it was). The Alliance sends one of Shepard's teammates on a special mission to that specific colony world, but also bring powerful defense towers. The Collectors attack then... why? It wasn't coincidence, but because they knew a crewmate of Shepard's was there.

TIM was able to lead the unpredictable Collectors to a battlefield of his place and time of choosing,, a place where serious anti-ship guns could hurt the collectors, a point where he could get Shepard to lead a counter attack the moment something happened, rather than racing after the fact.

TIM leaking Shepard's existence and spreading a rumor of where he would be was almost genius.

The logs never state what it is they are withholding from him, just that they are.  I doubt they were able to cover up the entire project from him, that seems to oppose what we know about him and his information network, and besides, what were they supposed to be doing there if it wasn't what they were actually doing?

Admit it: you're just looking for excuses.

The game wasn't good enough to cover everything on any situation, let alone a single side mission. We accept what it tells us for a simple reason: narrative simplicity and narrative accuracy. Most games do this. When a character tells us something, we can believe it (except in certain types of games), and we let occam's razor take care of the rest.

The game tells us in a way we are told to accept as legitimate that Jack's project was an operation that went out of control, without TIM's knowledge. Could it have gone to extreme lengths to explain at detail in every single avenue how it happened? That would have been boring and mostly pointless, because they  already told us what happened.

True, I do believe that Cerberus truly believes it is helping humanity with these actions, though human supremacy seems a bit far.  I don't think he would have stepped in had he known what was going on for those reasons however, as Jack's loyalty is not important.  They wanted to unlock the biotic potential and then use their discoveries to train up loyal biotics with it since a single biotic, no matter how powerful, is going to help human dominance.

Since TIM spent a fortune to bring one man back from the dead, I think we can agree that TIM is a believer that one person can make all the difference.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wildecker wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
 Admiral Kohaku mentions that Cerberus went rogue roughly six monthes ago, meaning it wasn't rogue before then. In the Corporal Tombs quest, Admiral Hacket talks about how Alliance scientists were conducting experiments at the time of the Akuze massacre. In the Codex, IIRC, one of the entries on Cerberus mentions how counterterrorism experts have noticed a change in tactics by Cerberus, switching from old methods to new ones including arms development and naval buildups, leading them to conclude a recent change in leadership. That is consistent with TIM's assuming total control of Cerberus, leading to things such as building the Normandy and the arms/armor development that you see in ME2.

The FBI never" went rogue". However, the way J. Edgar Hoover ran it shows that answering to the government was pretty low on his list of priorities. And standing down to democratically elected persons didn't even show on it.

So... your counter to the claim that Cerberus went independent of the Systems Alliance is to give an analogy implying that Cerberus is still part of the Systems Alliance, albeit one that doesn't follow all it's commands (much like the FBI).

I thought you were the one arguing that the Alliance wasn't responsible for Cerberus's actions?

My point is that the Alliance probably had no idea of the extents of Cerberus' operations and experiments while Cerberus still operated under their colors. And when the people in charge found out, Cerberus went "rogue" before their plugs got pulled. Just like that FBI COINTELPRO program - "You did WHAT!?!"

You know what that sounds exactly like?

Project Jack.

If the Illusive Man can be blamed for what he didn't know...

[FROST4584]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Okay, throughout ME2 I think there are some fairly strong indications that if a civilization that is NOT prepared to deal with advanced technology suddenly has it handed to them, it generally ends up being ruinous for the civilization in question (or causes them to stagnate/be less capable of independent thought/innovation). You find this out most directly hrough talking with Mordin about the Uplifting of the krogans before they were ready and its impact on their society. As for Legion, it seems to feel that the geth are better off "making their own future," as I believe he put it, rather than accepting Sovereign's (or Nazara's) offer as the heretics did.

Now, at the end of the suicide mission, you're presented with a similar choice: save the Collector base to try to make a gigantic technological leap, or destroy the Collector base knowing that we're probably not ready for it and that it could be very, very dangerous. For once, I thought that maybe the "right" choice, with the threat of a Reaper invasion being imminent, was to listen to the Illusive Man and actually keep the base intact. I went against my normal Paragon instincts after being paralyzed by indecision for a minute and listened to the Illusive Man, even though I had a REALLY bad feeling about it. Shortly thereafter I regretted my decision, especially after I saw that look on the Illusive Man's face in that last scene where he was by himself (that look was...well...kind of evil).

I'm going to keep this ending to see if there are serious ramifications in ME3, but I'm also going to replay it and blow up the base after giving serious thought to what Mordin and Legion said  (I also want to save Zaeed, so win-win I guess). I'm interested in hearing what other people decided to do and why they did it, especially whether or not Mordin's and Legion's cautionary tales about gigantic technological leaps and unprepared civilization influenced your decision about what to do at the end.

In my opinion it is not hanlding advance tach. It is all about using the base to discover anything that might beat the Reapers. I don't care what the writters say, destorying the base without a very good reason is easily the biggest miltary bunder in the universe. This would never happen in a real world let alone a real war. I don't trust Cerburus, but they are the only ones doing something to stop the reapers, also not to mention that if they try anything they can be dealt with later. 

I also find it hypocritical that it is ok to use reaper tech on the Normandy, pretty much use Reaper tech against them to destory the collector ship, yet it is not ok to capture a base filled with how many secrets, yet it is a good idea to destory it without researching information that is there that might save billions in the future.

Btw I kept the base in all 5 playthroughs. I don't are with the writters of Mass Effect 2 have to say.  Destroying the base is a betrayal of not Cerberus, but all the people who lost their lives in the collector base and the Milkly Way galaxy. So much could be learned. The ironey is that the Paragon ending is the ending were Shepard gives in to fear, where as the renagde ending is more of what could be learned from a unknown threat.

Modifié par FROST4584, 19 avril 2010 - 03:04 .

[smudboy]

Proof, Memorial, Technology, Intel.

This pretty much explains it.

[FredThePhoenix]

smudboy wrote...

Proof, Memorial, Technology, Intel.

This pretty much explains it.

LOL

You beat me to it. There's no way I was going to destroy it for the same logical reasons. And 'sacrificing the soul of our species' is always a response to the Illusive Man in the Renegade ending. It's not related to keeping the Base. It's related to how to use it.

[WandererRTF]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

Shepard and his team were impressed, but overestimated the number of possible victims by several magnitudes.

The size of the ship wasn't the point. The Collectors can make multiple  trips.

Wonder if they have multiple ships... From the radio chat the team members have in collector ship mission it would appear that there are several collector ships and the inability to instantly ID the one blown up would sorta indicate that at least some of the other ships were similar cruisers as well.

I disagree that the Reaper base is set to indoctrinate, because why would it? It's defenses were entirely focused on the Relay and the debris field, and it didn't even have exterior defenses. It never had any reason or need to set indoctrination traps (Dragon's Teeth don't need willing subjects), and the Human Reaper is dead.

I would rather say why wouldn't it. That is given the ties between Collectors and Reapers it seems likely that some Reaper artifacts would be left behind to the Collector base. And as even small reaper artifacts were enough to cause indoctrination every item is pretty much a suspect. And it hardly needs to be 'indoctrination traps'.. Its just that Collectors and lot in the Collector base had absolutely no reason what so ever to avoid things which cause indoctrination so those could just lay in the open there - anywhere and every where around the base. You could never really clean such a place nor could you really trust anything the on site scientists tell you (as there would always remain a suspicion of subtle indoctrination). So why not purge it with nuclear fire and be done with it.

Given that Collectors were essentially brainless drones with only slighly better mental capacity than what a husk would have do you really expect the base to offer some grand insights into Reapers? Harbinger et al could (or rather should) have lead them via the General all the time instructing as required.

And sure.. you could probably learn how to make Reapers from there.. But would you really want to know how do it? Hell.. no one even knows how exactly the mass relays work.. and it could be assumed that reaper creation tech could be wee bit more complicated than that. And would you really want any one to be forking around (cause its total fantasy if you think they could really understand the tech) with that technology?

In short the whole thing (giving base to Cerberus) is analogous to what Mordin stated of the Salarians uplifting (so to speak) the Krogan... 'Like giving nuclear weapons to cavemen'. It would darn sure look awesome at the first glance but you could be certain that it would come back to bite at your arse. Of course we'll see how things end up in ME3 (i hope).

Modifié par WandererRTF, 19 avril 2010 - 03:26 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

To be fair, I do think they changed course mid-step in regards to
Cerberus. Certainly the depictions between 1 and 2 clash between
incompetent meaningless supervillainy and greater good idealogue group.
The way I square the circle is that TIM has been a lead player all the
while, certainly having a great deal of influence, but 'officially'
broke away when he felt secure and that the Alliance wasn't using
Cerberus correctly.

That's one way to look at it, another is that Admiral Hackett was wrong about Cerberus.  Most people even in the Alliance Military leadership itself is not supposed to know of Cerberus' existence, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Hackett to not know the full facts or for the Alliance to not realise that Cerberus went rogue long ago and just never bothered to tell them (since no one would know they had gone in the first place, though then that would make them guilty of not keeping track of all their assets).

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Part of that, unfortunately, is that TIM is a driver of the story plot, and ME is only an interactive story, not a full out RPG. It never was a game that allowed you full control of your direction, only in what order you took certain missions. As a character, TIM is what he says: he gives you options, and let's you choose. That his options are the only options, that's a matter of ME being a game. It has to move the plot.

Does TIM go behind your back? Yes. But he's also upfront about it, and he pretty much told you he would from the get go. It's a style called 'following from the front', if you understand the reference.

Why did TIM lie about the Collector Ship? He judged it had to be done, and I think we can agree the ship was necessary. Why did he have to lie about it? Well, he's open about that to: he didn't want to give it away and lose this one chance. While the delivery and execution story-wise was contrived, it's not an unreasonable thing. I suspected it was a trap, but I didn't (wouldn't have) told my team for the same reason.

Leaking word of Shepard also had a rational behind it: more than a mere propoganda win for Cerberus, but for leading the Collectors to an engagement. Consider: word of Shepard's return arrives, and a rumor that Shepard will be on Planet (whatever it was). The Alliance sends one of Shepard's teammates on a special mission to that specific colony world, but also bring powerful defense towers. The Collectors attack then... why? It wasn't coincidence, but because they knew a crewmate of Shepard's was there.

TIM was able to lead the unpredictable Collectors to a battlefield of his place and time of choosing,, a place where serious anti-ship guns could hurt the collectors, a point where he could get Shepard to lead a counter attack the moment something happened, rather than racing after the fact.

TIM leaking Shepard's existence and spreading a rumor of where he would be was almost genius.

While the game cannot allow you true freedom, it's still true that TIM takes measures that ensure you taking certain options, and the game lets you confront him about this at several times.  As for sending you to the collector ship, his motivations are not important, what is important is that he deemed that it was important and set about ensuring you went there, something he does throughout the story.

As for TIM himself, he genuinely believes that Cerberus is humanity, therefore Cerberus should always come first and that as leader of Cerberus he is the leader of humanity.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Admit it: you're just looking for excuses.

The game wasn't good enough to cover everything on any situation, let alone a single side mission. We accept what it tells us for a simple reason: narrative simplicity and narrative accuracy. Most games do this. When a character tells us something, we can believe it (except in certain types of games), and we let occam's razor take care of the rest.

The game tells us in a way we are told to accept as legitimate that Jack's project was an operation that went out of control, without TIM's knowledge. Could it have gone to extreme lengths to explain at detail in every single avenue how it happened? That would have been boring and mostly pointless, because they  already told us what happened.

Not at all.

Jack herself states in the mission that there is no guarantee that what the logs are talking about are refering to the project itself.  This means that the game itself is telling us that we cannot be certain of its legitimacy, and it is kept deliberately vague so as to leave us wondering what exactly happened there.

ME2 is clearly not taking the approach of "If a character tells us something, then its true" approach, as TIM himself is intended to be unclear and ambiguous.

Since TIM spent a fortune to bring one man back from the dead, I think we can agree that TIM is a believer that one person can make all the difference.

Shepard yes, Jack no.  If she was so important why did he not retrieve her for Cerberus, but instead send her to Purgatory?  She was important for biotic research, not because of herself.  It is a running motif of Cerberus that they are constantly sacrificing people for the 'greater good', and that the individual is unimportant when it comes to humanity as a whole.

[Dean_the_Young]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

To be fair, I do think they changed course mid-step in regards to
Cerberus. Certainly the depictions between 1 and 2 clash between
incompetent meaningless supervillainy and greater good idealogue group.
The way I square the circle is that TIM has been a lead player all the
while, certainly having a great deal of influence, but 'officially'
broke away when he felt secure and that the Alliance wasn't using
Cerberus correctly.

That's one way to look at it, another is that Admiral Hackett was wrong about Cerberus.  Most people even in the Alliance Military leadership itself is not supposed to know of Cerberus' existence, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Hackett to not know the full facts or for the Alliance to not realise that Cerberus went rogue long ago and just never bothered to tell them (since no one would know they had gone in the first place, though then that would make them guilty of not keeping track of all their assets).

Given the continued ties/contacts between Cerberus and the Alliance HQ (such to the extent that Admiral Kohaku's death can be covered up, among other things), any confusion about when Cerberus went rogue goes in the other direction: either Cerberus cut ties 6 monthes before ME1, or it never truly went rogue at all (see Zulu's thread on the idea). There's nothing supporting the idea that it was rogue before and extremely high ranked officers weren't told of it (why? because): certainly when it was solidly accepted as an unofficial part of the Alliance it never had trouble performing terrorism and acts that people find disgusting.

While the game cannot allow you true freedom, it's still true that TIM takes measures that ensure you taking certain options, and the game lets you confront him about this at several times.  As for sending you to the collector ship, his motivations are not important, what is important is that he deemed that it was important and set about ensuring you went there, something he does throughout the story.

TIM sets the context of many things, by what he does/does not tell you, but he isn't controling you: a canonical Shepard willingly agrees to work with Cerberus, take TIM's suggestions, and do the Collector Ship.

Not at all.

Jack herself states in the mission that there is no guarantee that what the logs are talking about are refering to the project itself.  This means that the game itself is telling us that we cannot be certain of its legitimacy, and it is kept deliberately vague so as to leave us wondering what exactly happened there.

During the same mission, however, Jack is proven to be unreliable witness: many of the things she thought she knew during her incarceration were mistaken or all-out wrong. By the end of the mission she's grasping at straws.

The legitimacy of the logs isn't in question, it's their context.

ME2 is clearly not taking the approach of "If a character tells us something, then its true" approach, as TIM himself is intended to be unclear and ambiguous.

Actually, TIM is pretty honest. Like any skilled propogandist, he knows that the most effective lies are lies of omission, which is about all he does. When TIM tells you something, you can believe it. You just have to not jump to conclusions.

Shepard yes, Jack no.  If she was so important why did he not retrieve her for Cerberus, but instead send her to Purgatory?  She was important for biotic research, not because of herself.  It is a running motif of Cerberus that they are constantly sacrificing people for the 'greater good', and that the individual is unimportant when it comes to humanity as a whole.

TIM didn't send her to Purgatory, TIM found her again at Purgatory and suggested her as an possible member of Shepard's team.

If you're asking why not retrieve her earlier, what would be the point on a cost-benefit analysis? She sooner kill Cerberus than join it: getting her cooperation would be almost impossible at that point. It was only for something as important as Shepard's mission and by someone as charismatic as Shepard that Jack was recruited, and even then she was a hairs breath from killing critical Cerberus personel and equipment.

The benefit would be a nearly impossible chance of having one of the most powerful biotics at a time Cerberus didn't need one. The cost would be tremendous risk at best, even greater loss of life and equipment in the more likely result which would lead in Jack's death. Meaning she never could be useful again under any circumstance.

[Terraneaux]

I'd love it if there was an option to destroy it based off of not wanting TIM to have it. Instead, if you destroy it, you do it because the base is somehow tainted by all the humans who got pureed there. Yeah, because technology can be inherently evil. I felt like Mordin was going to reach through the screen and slap me.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Terraneaux wrote...

I'd love it if there was an option to destroy it based off of not wanting TIM to have it. Instead, if you destroy it, you do it because the base is somehow tainted by all the humans who got pureed there. Yeah, because technology can be inherently evil. I felt like Mordin was going to reach through the screen and slap me.

when i destroyed it, I got the feeling that there would be booby traps, something here that is nasty and while I love to keep it, so far, All I've seen so far with reaper technology is indocunation or mis-use. I didn't build the normandy sr-2, but I assumed the geth and the turians etc got an few aces up their sleeves. Calling it an military blunder all you want, but I just assumed that we would not be able to keep it, and consideirng how rare reaper IFF's are, I didn't feel like taking another stroll thru the omega IV relay because Cerbersus wasn't able to keep ahold of the station. I basically assumed that it would be open warfare from this moment on basically.

Besides, I just don't really trust Cerbersus in the long run.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 19 avril 2010 - 05:38 .

[Wildecker]

In the end, it was a poor choice of words. Had he been content with "This will help us ensure the survival of mankind against the Reapers" - oh well.

But no! He just had to give me the "This ensures human dominance, against the Reapers and beyond!" line.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Wildecker wrote...

In the end, it was a poor choice of words. Had he been content with "This will help us ensure the survival of mankind against the Reapers" - oh well.
But no! He just had to give me the "This ensures human dominance, against the Reapers and beyond!" line.

Agreed... the ending was quite forced with no alternate... which was bogus in my opinon. There should have been plenty of options on what to do with the base just like the data you get from the dead cerberus agent mission you get, you can send it to multple people etc.

[Archereon]

The base should be destroyed for several reasons.



1. Its quite possible it could be a trap. The fact that it was virtually undefended seems almost too convenient, and as we know, the Reapers want us to develop down the same technological avenue they did.



2. Rather than use the base to directly fight the Reapers, TIM is going to go all palpatine and declare himself emperor of the galaxy for the greater good. He'll try at least.



3. Even if TIM isn't on a power trip, he might decide that the only way to stop the Reapers is with a fleet of Reapers for himself. Though he wouldn't melt his own people, its conceivable he might try convert all the remaining races into Reapers or thralls like the Collectors.

[Nightwriter]

Archereon wrote...

The base should be destroyed for several reasons.

1. Its quite possible it could be a trap. The fact that it was virtually undefended seems almost too convenient, and as we know, the Reapers want us to develop down the same technological avenue they did.

Very good point, this felt ominous to me too.

Achereon wrote...

2. Rather than use the base to directly fight the Reapers, TIM is going to go all palpatine and declare himself emperor of the galaxy for the greater good. He'll try at least.

'Nother good point. Heh heh. Palpatine. Good analogy.

Achereon wrote...

3. Even if TIM isn't on a power trip, he might decide that the only way to stop the Reapers is with a fleet of Reapers for himself. Though he wouldn't melt his own people, its conceivable he might try convert all the remaining races into Reapers or thralls like the Collectors.

Third good point. He'd totally do this.

And I can't let him liquefy all my salarian, asari, krogan, quarian and turian friendies! I lurves them too much.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 avril 2010 - 07:30 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

I'd be more comfortable with the paragons blowing up the base if they had an actual back-up plan for dealing with the Reapers.

well there is numerous mentions throughout the game that the turians, geth and other races are developing technologies to combat the reapers. The Geth say they working on an alternate technology to fight against the reapers, the turians are clearly making weapons out of dead soverign etc. The turians did re-purpose soverign's tenticle weapon into the thanix cannon.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 19 avril 2010 - 07:47 .

[Nightwriter]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I'd be more comfortable with the paragons blowing up the base if they had an actual back-up plan for dealing with the Reapers.

well there is numerous mentions throughout the game that the turians, geth and other races are developing technologies to combat the reapers. The Geth say they working on an alternate technology to fight against the reapers, the turians are clearly making weapons out of dead soverign etc.

True, but I really wouldn't mind some evidence of a back-up plan, either.

I hate destroying the base, but I feel I have to simply because I can't trust TIM. At the same time I feel they're forcing me into taking a stupid risk without foresight or some alternative plan.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Nightwriter wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I'd be more comfortable with the paragons blowing up the base if they had an actual back-up plan for dealing with the Reapers.

well there is numerous mentions throughout the game that the turians, geth and other races are developing technologies to combat the reapers. The Geth say they working on an alternate technology to fight against the reapers, the turians are clearly making weapons out of dead soverign etc.

True, but I really wouldn't mind some evidence of a back-up plan, either.

I hate destroying the base, but I feel I have to simply because I can't trust TIM. At the same time I feel they're forcing me into taking a stupid risk without foresight or some alternative plan.

To be honest the decision is much like the Council, you can save them, but you might not have enough ships to kill soverign etc.

It's all the player's reasoning about why you shouldn't or should keep the base which i am glad they kept in the end, it based upon that player's perspective of things to come rather then clear-cut decisions.

I trust the fact that legion/geth and the turians etc have an few aces up their sleeves which they clearly do sound like they do. Call me an risk-taker if you want, but I rather we plow the road with new tech instead of reaper tech. Everything in the game was screaming at me - don't follow the reapers "embrace our tech" plans. So every oppunity I took was one in which I could get away from reaper technology.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 19 avril 2010 - 07:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Archereon wrote...

The base should be destroyed for several reasons.

1. Its quite possible it could be a trap. The fact that it was virtually undefended seems almost too convenient, and as we know, the Reapers want us to develop down the same technological avenue they did.

Undefended besides the impassible relay no organic was ever intended to traverse, the debris cloud of the thousands who had tried, the automated defense systems, the stealth-detecting cutting-edge cruiser, hundreds (if not thousands) of Harbringer-possesible Collectors, millions of Seekers, and, oh what was it...

Oh, yes. 'Reaper.'

We have dismissed that claim.

2. Rather than use the base to directly fight the Reapers, TIM is going to go all palpatine and declare himself emperor of the galaxy for the greater good. He'll try at least.

Considering that the entire point of the Illusive Man is that he's a selfless idealogue, Shepard's more likely to take the reigns of emperor than TIM. TIM has always been about being the secret force behind the scenes anyway: while he certainly wouldn't mind having an Emperor of Manking be in his pocket, he himself wouldn't be it.

3. Even if TIM isn't on a power trip, he might decide that the only way to stop the Reapers is with a fleet of Reapers for himself. Though he wouldn't melt his own people, its conceivable he might try convert all the remaining races into Reapers or thralls like the Collectors.

A few problems with that.

One, he isn't genocidal.

Two, most of the races can't be turned into passable reapers in the first place.

Three, that would still leave the (presumably remaining) humans outnumbered hundreds of Reapers to a few, if it weren't also for the fact that

Four, Cerberus doesn't have the means to abduct billions of people from other races, especially without

Five, starting a war of galactic scale right as the Reapers are coming.

Why is it everyone inists that the Illusive Man is pure evil-moronic?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 avril 2010 - 07:59 .