437 réponses à ce sujet

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why is it everyone inists that the Illusive Man is pure evil-moronic?

I think it's not pure evil, i think its more of the fact that given cerbersus' rep in the past game, and their "new found" image in this one - more than likely many people including myself think cerbersus is just pulling an front on "the justice of the galaxy etc." Sure they have the same goal of defeating the reapers, but their means are greatly different and often, result in casutlies that could have been prevented easily.

[Archereon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Archereon wrote...

The base should be destroyed for several reasons.

1. Its quite possible it could be a trap. The fact that it was virtually undefended seems almost too convenient, and as we know, the Reapers want us to develop down the same technological avenue they did.

Undefended besides the impassible relay no organic was ever intended to traverse, the debris cloud of the thousands who had tried, the automated defense systems, the stealth-detecting cutting-edge cruiser, hundreds (if not thousands) of Harbringer-possesible Collectors, millions of Seekers, and, oh what was it...

Oh, yes. 'Reaper.'

We have dismissed that claim.

2. Rather than use the base to directly fight the Reapers, TIM is going to go all palpatine and declare himself emperor of the galaxy for the greater good. He'll try at least.

Considering that the entire point of the Illusive Man is that he's a selfless idealogue, Shepard's more likely to take the reigns of emperor than TIM. TIM has always been about being the secret force behind the scenes anyway: while he certainly wouldn't mind having an Emperor of Manking be in his pocket, he himself wouldn't be it.

3. Even if TIM isn't on a power trip, he might decide that the only way to stop the Reapers is with a fleet of Reapers for himself. Though he wouldn't melt his own people, its conceivable he might try convert all the remaining races into Reapers or thralls like the Collectors.

A few problems with that.

One, he isn't genocidal.

Two, most of the races can't be turned into passable reapers in the first place.

Three, that would still leave the (presumably remaining) humans outnumbered hundreds of Reapers to a few, if it weren't also for the fact that

Four, Cerberus doesn't have the means to abduct billions of people from other races, especially without

Five, starting a war of galactic scale right as the Reapers are coming.

Why is it everyone inists that the Illusive Man is pure evil-moronic?

1. Compared to even a single Reaper, the defenses of the collector base kind of sucked.

2. TIM doesn't necessarily even need to personally be the "galactic emperor", all he needs is a puppet.

3. Probably because everything Cerberus did in Mass Effect 1 was chaotic stupid.

[Nightwriter]

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

True, but I really
wouldn't mind some evidence of a back-up plan, either.

I hate
destroying the base, but I feel I have to simply because I can't trust
TIM. At the same time I feel they're forcing me into taking a stupid
risk without foresight or some alternative plan.

[/quote]

So
man up and keep the base. [/quote]

[/quote]

Ha! No way. I chose the lesser evil. Giving the tech to TIM is far more of a stupid and dangerous blind call.

The general guidelines I follow are:

Don't split an atom.
Don't open Pandora's Box.
Don't give advanced alien mind-altering technology to Cerberus.

Check, check, aaaand check.

[quote]Shandepard wrote...

At the very least you have the guarantee that
TIM will use it to fight the Reapers. Afterwards you'll be privvy to
his greatest secret (the Collector base) and if you feel he's become a
problem you can start leaking info to the
Alliance/Council/Carebears/whomever. [/quote]

Oh, phbptthbt. You have absolutely no way of knowing whether Bioware will let you do that, you shouldn't assume you'll be given such freedoms.

[quote] Shandepard wrote...
What you're doing now though is
shooting yourself in the foot by robbing the galaxy of its greatest
strategic victory over the Reapers and secondly you are alienating (ha!)
the only other faction in the galaxy that understands the Reaper threat
and is willing to devote all resources towards fighting that threat.

You
know it's a stupid choice, you just admited it. So why do it? The
Reapers are the biggest threat, TIM will NEVER compare to them. So stop
the Reapers first and then if you insist on making war against Cerberus
you can do it later after the Reapers have been defeated.

'course
I'm absolutely positive that in the end Bioware is probably gonna give
the paragons a new mcguffin to chase after to stop the Reapers.

To
simplify things they'll probably have TIM join the Reapers anyway, that
way no matter if you are paragon/renegade you'll wind up with the same
enemies and same artifact to chase after.

[/quote]

... And it is because of this mcguffin that I made the choice I did. I know neither choice is going to result in complete and total forfeiture of the game, and they probably won't paint the paragons into a corner with the nobler choices, just like they won't paint renegades into a corner with the darker choices.

Like I said, I took the lesser of two evils. Or, I should say, the lesser of two stupids.

PS: Those copy and paste formatting glitches are really a b*tch, huh?

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 avril 2010 - 09:00 .

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why is it everyone inists that the Illusive Man is pure evil-moronic?

That's the tragic part. I can understand his goals, but in my opinion he's doing the wrong things, even if for the right reasons. And he expects way too much from that base. In effect, Cerberus will study it and relax because "we know stuff now". And that won't be enough.

Without the base and its clues, we'll all be forced to look into new ways to defeat the Reapers.
Ways that don't incorporate their technology.
Things they don't see coming from miles away and stuff they haven't learned to counter millennia ago.

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...
Ha! No way. I chose the lesser evil. Giving the tech to TIM is far more of a stupid and dangerous blind call.

The general guidelines I follow are:

Don't split an atom.
Don't open Pandora's Box.
Don't give advanced alien mind-altering technology to Cerberus.

Check, check, aaaand check.

Shandepared makes a good enough point.

ME2 was next to useless in helping against the overarching plot.  The only two choices were 1) Keep/sell Legion, 2) Blow up/keep the base.

Every choice you make should help in stopping the BigBad.  TIM is one, just not comparable to the BigBad.  That devilish grin of his may be pure ego, but I'll take a megalomaniac's motivation if it involves galaxy survival.  Arguments toward "I hate TIM" are childish; Shepard's paragon response isn't only galactically stupid, it's galactically lethal.

All reasoning is meaningless if the galaxy is gone.  I would've imagined the Suicide Mission would've at least taught this Renegade outlook.  Miranda, Jacob and Shepard could be the ones to balance out TIM's powertrips.

[Nightwriter]

smudboy wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Ha! No way. I chose the lesser evil. Giving the tech to TIM is far more of a stupid and dangerous blind call.

The general guidelines I follow are:

Don't split an atom.
Don't open Pandora's Box.
Don't give advanced alien mind-altering technology to Cerberus.

Check, check, aaaand check.

Shandepared makes a good enough point.

ME2 was next to useless in helping against the overarching plot.  The only two choices were 1) Keep/sell Legion, 2) Blow up/keep the base.

Every choice you make should help in stopping the BigBad.  TIM is one, just not comparable to the BigBad.  That devilish grin of his may be pure ego, but I'll take a megalomaniac's motivation if it involves galaxy survival.  Arguments toward "I hate TIM" are childish; Shepard's paragon response isn't only galactically stupid, it's galactically lethal.

All reasoning is meaningless if the galaxy is gone.  I would've imagined the Suicide Mission would've at least taught this Renegade outlook.  Miranda, Jacob and Shepard could be the ones to balance out TIM's powertrips.

Shep's paragon response is poorly written and so is the whole idea of keeping/destroying the Collector base.

It should've been keep it and give it to Cerberus or keep it and give it to the Council/Alliance.

Regardless, it is hardly a logical call on my part, but an emotional one. The hints they were giving me there at the end with TIM smiling darkly at the Collector base and his "Against the Reapers and beyond" comment were what swayed me intuitively.

Also, I knew realistically that destroying the Collector base would not cost me the galaxy. They don't punish paragon decisions. They don't really punish renegade decisions, either; they just change your game.

[Nivenus]

I actually, in spite of being pretty paragon, strongly considered preserving the Collector base. To me, the usefulness of dissecting the technology to find weaknesses in the Reapers that could be exploited as almost too much to turn down. But, in the end I destroyed the Collector base, for one very simple reason.



Cerberus would control it and my infiltrat!Shepard doesn't trust Cerberus as far as he can throw them (and for very good reasons, given he's a Sole Survivor). Better to keep the tech out of TIM's hands and find another way to beat Cerberus rather than to risk him misusing the technology.

[Archereon]

Nigthwriter: With ME3, all bets are off, we'll see. But I seriously doubt they'll give you the "REAPERZ WIN LULZ" ending just for not saving the collector base.

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...
Shep's paragon response is poorly written and so is the whole idea of keeping/destroying the Collector base.

It should've been keep it and give it to Cerberus or keep it and give it to the Council/Alliance.

Regardless, it is hardly a logical call on my part, but an emotional one. The hints they were giving me there at the end with TIM smiling darkly at the Collector base and his "Against the Reapers and beyond" comment were what swayed me intuitively.

Also, I knew realistically that destroying the Collector base would not cost me the galaxy. They don't punish paragon decisions. They don't really punish renegade decisions, either; they just change your game.

So because Shepard's paragaon resonse is poorly written, so is keeping the base?  What?

One of the problems with the plot is it doesn't allow you to stray from Cerberus.  If we had the option to keep the base for someone else, we should've had the option to ditch Cerberus right off the bat.  The railroading is what made the Council and the Alliance retarded, so the player is forced to be under Cerberus.

But since you've admitted it's an emotional response, and your metagaming, there's really no point in arguing.

[Masticetobbacco]

keep it. Within a few months, TIM's factories are gona spew out gundams

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

well there is numerous mentions
throughout the game that the turians, geth and other races are
developing technologies to combat the reapers. The Geth say they working
on an alternate technology to fight against the reapers, the turians
are clearly making weapons out of dead soverign etc. The turians did
re-purpose soverign's tenticle weapon into the thanix cannon.

No,

the geth say they are building a Dyson Sphere,

that's it. Otherwise you're betting that the other races, who don't
even acknowledge the Reaper threat, are going to be able to reverse
engineer enough technology from Sovereign's scraps. That's a pretty big
stretch.

Uh no, they don't. They said that they were researching alternate technolgies then reapers line of technology. That is it. The only other clue they gave was the fact that it would be able to ensure the surivival of the geth and be able to house them all. That was it. For all you know, it could be some big warship or an technology that allows them to jump between different systems others than the mass relays.

To say it's an dyson sphere... what clues did you get to that? I did not hear any proof of that could remotely point to that. I Imangined that it would be either an fleet of ships capable of taking the reapers on in some compancity or perhaps some large warship of some kind that could house all the geth at once.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 19 avril 2010 - 10:20 .

[TomY90]

Me personally I destroy it everytime its tainted.



Mordin And Legion talked about the consequences of taking advanced tech (i only remember mordins well i wont guess legions)



Mordin: look at krogans we gave nuclear weapons to cave men caused civil war and caused genophage upon the krogan



I also do not think it will be a disaster if you destroy the base you might be able to get a krogan army if you save the cure attempt, quarians fleet to help, geth fleet, the council, cerberus, the alliance, other races and of course i can imagine you will have help from ME1 and ME2 characters too

[Dean_the_Young]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Uh no, they don't. They said that they were
researching alternate technolgies then reapers line of technology. That
is it. The only other clue they gave was the fact that it would be able
to ensure the surivival of the geth and be able to house them all. That
was it. For all you know, it could be some big warship or an technology
that allows them to jump between different systems others than the mass
relays.

To say it's an dyson sphere... what clues did you get to
that? I did not hear any proof of that could remotely point to that. I
Imangined that it would be either an fleet of ships capable of taking
the reapers on in some compancity or perhaps some large warship of some
kind that could house all the geth at once.

...Legion explicitly states that the future that the Geth are building is a mega-structure analogous to a Dyson Sphere. All you have to do is ask him about the future of the Geth.

TomY90 wrote...

Me personally I destroy it everytime its tainted.

Mordin And Legion talked about the consequences of taking advanced tech (i only remember mordins well i wont guess legions)

Mordin: look at krogans we gave nuclear weapons to cave men caused civil war and caused genophage upon the krogan

So, if taking advanced technology is bad and all gains should be developed by ones self, I assume you'll at least stay consistent and advocate the abandonment of all human colonies, the destruction of all Mass Effect technology, and the assumption of the technological status quo before the discovery of the Mars Cache, which was tech 200 years beyond human tech at the time?

No modern weapons, shields, medigel, or biotics for you. Those are all derived from Reaper tech, after all.

I also do not think it will be a disaster if you destroy the base you might be able to get a krogan army if you save the cure attempt, quarians fleet to help, geth fleet, the council, cerberus, the alliance, other races and of course i can imagine you will have help from ME1 and ME2 characters too

In other words, you're metagaming that the game will let you win regardless of what decisions you make. On that note, you could also destroy the Genophage cure, send the quarians into a suicidal war with the geth, never have saved the geth, and you would still be able to beat the Reapers.

Of course, doing so would (we would assume) cost many more lives. Which is what the Reaper base promised to reverse, by saving a lot more lives than would die otherwise.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

Me personally I destroy it everytime its tainted.

Mordin And Legion talked about the consequences of taking advanced tech (i only remember mordins well i wont guess legions)

Mordin: look at krogans we gave nuclear weapons to cave men caused civil war and caused genophage upon the krogan

So, if taking advanced technology is bad and all gains should be developed by ones self, I assume you'll at least stay consistent and advocate the abandonment of all human colonies, the destruction of all Mass Effect technology, and the assumption of the technological status quo before the discovery of the Mars Cache, which was tech 200 years beyond human tech at the time?

No modern weapons, shields, medigel, or biotics for you. Those are all derived from Reaper tech, after all.

Actually, abandoning all reaper-tech including mass effect technology is looking to be at least one of the possible endings to ME3.  I can see the ME galaxy essentially being 'reset' technologically speaking, resulting in all the races having to redevelop space technology again, while simultaneously giving a ingame explanation as to why all these races just happen to be at the same tech level (something that is often overlooked in sci-fi). 

Prior to the discovery of the martian cache, humanity was developing its own interstellar drive, one that didn't rely on mass effect technology, and is the reason why Jump Zero was built (the drive they were working only worked in interstellar space, so they built the station right on the edge of the solar system for where spaceships could jump off from, hence Jump Zero) but it was abandoned once the mass effect technology was discovered (hence showing what Legion meant when he said that taking one path blinds you to another).  It shows that space travel would be possible without mass effect or reaper technology, it just means having to develop and work for it ourselves, which is kind of the moral or theme I'm getting from the story. 

I would not be surprised if its revealed in ME3 that all the mass effect technology is powered by, or draws the power from, the reapers.  I've mentioned this in another thread before, but in one of the logs on the dead reaper one of the scientists talks about the reaper being like a god as in the verb, a force that even when dead it distorts reality around it (rather like how a mass effect field distorts it...), and that it doesn't even have to be aware to do so (maybe the mass relays, instead of creating the field themselves, tap into the reapers or the source of their power and channel that instead?  Maybe without the reaper even being aware of it happening?).  The whole dark matter thing on Haestrom also seems to indicate that something else is happening, maybe mass effect technology is itself just naturally destructive to the galaxy and the races will have to abandon it to avoid destroying everything?  Or maybe the mass effect technology is actually merging the galaxy with some sort of 'reaper realm'?  A merger that has been going on for millenia?  This last paragraph is just hypothesises I know, but fun nonetheless.

[Dean_the_Young]

In the interest of fairness you could always say they might have found something... far, far inferior to Mass Effect FTL, the Mass Relays, and way behind the galactic cutting edge. It takes time to develop technology from scratch, of course.

On the other hand, they might have discovered element zero on their own, and spent the next two centuries reinventing the wheel. But at least it would be a morally superior wheel.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 avril 2010 - 12:12 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Shandepared wrote...

That's the backstory to a Mass Effect MMO if I ever heard one. Let's hope not. In any case, you probably want to defeat the Reapers before you go and eschew all Reaper technology. (not that the galaxy at large would ever willingly make that choice)

I never said it was a good idea, just that it looked like that was the way it was going.   They have said that they plan on writing more ME games after ME3, just that Shepard's story will end with the third part.  Whether that means an MMO, series of single player games, board games, extreme milkage games, etc I don't know, but ending the game with a tech reset would look like a prelude to whatever it is they have planned.

Shandepared wrote...
Kaidan called that goose-chase FTL research. That indicates that it wasn't going anywhere. Without FTL (faster than light) travel you aren't going anywhere. The civilization that we see in Mass Effect simply isn't possible without it. 

I'll need to check, but I believe the codex states that the research didn't fail but was abandoned.  They probably were encountering difficulties which cast doubt on it being a viable method, and then when the cache was discovered it was ditched in favour of the more effective Mass Effect drives that could work anywhere, wasting all the investment done in the previous FTL research.  This doesn't mean that it wouldn't work or that there isn't some other method that they could use, as the scientists must have felt that FTL travel was possible by that stage in human history.

As for the civilisation not being possible without the mass effect tech, I agree with you totally, which is why I think they will do it.  Currently we have a galaxy-wide society that relies totally on the mass relays, without which travel would take too long to keep it together.  If the races never had the mass relays to begin with the galaxy would have been more fragmented and less controlled, with no single society being able to enforce itself like the council does, and with the removal of the mass relays from the ME galaxy we know now the society would start to fragment, with each nation being more independant.  This would cause more anarchy, but it would also increase competition, leading to innovation, adventure, exploration etc.  

I don't know how they would make them give up the mass effect technology, but I doubt it would be by choice too, unless the choice is give it up or die a horrible death at the hands of the reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Considering galactic scale, it's more likely the races would never meet each other, or at least not meet eachother for thousands, if not millions, of years.



Space is BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG, after all. It's pretty easy to forget when looking at the galaxy map that each point of light is thousands of light years from eachother.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Considering galactic scale, it's more likely the races would never meet each other, or at least not meet eachother for thousands, if not millions, of years.

Space is BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG, after all. It's pretty easy to forget when looking at the galaxy map that each point of light is thousands of light years from eachother.

Exactly, depending on how fast the drives they would've ended up developing, the relationship between races could range from never meeting, to only really getting to know their immediate neighbours, to races only engaging in sector (region, zone, whatever you want to call it) politics with other races.  It could also lead to alot of the races fragmenting, spliting off into smaller nations so you don't just have one nation per race but multiple nations, each with a different characteristic, or comprised of a mixture of races if its after the loss of the mass relays.

The races do have the headstart of knowing there are others out there, and once the relays are gone there may be conclaves of different races scattered all over the place.

[falco117]

I destroyed it because i like things that go BOOM, nah jk, I destroyed it because saving it went against my common sense (Destroy the base and hope that my allies are good enough to defeat the reapers or give it to a crazy megalomaniac who intends to use it to "help humanity")

[Dean_the_Young]

So, in context:



Gambling with a return to cycles galactic extinction with far inferior forces is preferable to evening the odds at the cost of human political dominance of the Universe.



Even shorter: It's better for everyone to die than for humans to be the dominant political/economic/military power.

[ILIAS R]

I've played the last mission twice for each of my characters (3) but i think there should be a third option where we can keep the base for our self

[Dean_the_Young]

How would you be able to use it?





There is an (unspoken) reason for why the base can't be saved for the Alliance or Council: Cerberus is moving to pick it up. If you do the everyone-dies route but save the base, the picture of the Collector Base shows Cerberus cargo ships approaching after the Normandy leaves. Cerberus would have already picked up the base by the time you can get to the Alliance or Citadel.