437 réponses à ce sujet

[ILIAS R]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How would you be able to use it?


There is an (unspoken) reason for why the base can't be saved for the Alliance or Council: Cerberus is moving to pick it up. If you do the everyone-dies route but save the base, the picture of the Collector Base shows Cerberus cargo ships approaching after the Normandy leaves. Cerberus would have already picked up the base by the time you can get to the Alliance or Citadel.

 yes you have a point there but think of the potentials the man is very illusive
and that come's to my other question where is the mass reley on the side of  collectors space ?
it's a long way home .
 

[The Elite Elite]

For me this choice didn't even strike me as a real choice. Blow up the biggest collection of the enemy's tech we have ever had because TIM might use it to become a dictator after we've dealt with the Reaper threat? Or keep it and possibly learn something that gives us a much needed advantage over the Reapers so we can save the galaxy? I say keep it. Better a galaxy under the dictator fist of TIM than no galaxy at all, and the Reapers continue their cycle. Plus Miranda is for blowing it up. If she is for destroying it, I know it almost certainly is right to keep it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ah, good old reverse psychology. I'm convinced half the paragons here would have kept the base if only TIM had told them not to. That would have been wicked cool if, say you were a Paragon by the end, TIM was like



TIM: Wargh, blow it up Shepard. Soul of species and all that. Plus, imagine if the Council got its hand on technology, using it against Reapers and ensuring their dominance across galaxy forever



And Shepards around the world would be like



Shepard: STFU Martin Sheen! You'd rather let the galaxy burn than let aliens be dominant, I'm taking this base!



And TIM would be like



Sucker!!!

[DPSSOC]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ah, good old reverse psychology. I'm convinced half the paragons here would have kept the base if only TIM had told them not to. That would have been wicked cool if, say you were a Paragon by the end, TIM was like

TIM: Wargh, blow it up Shepard. Soul of species and all that. Plus, imagine if the Council got its hand on technology, using it against Reapers and ensuring their dominance across galaxy forever

And Shepards around the world would be like

Shepard: STFU Martin Sheen! You'd rather let the galaxy burn than let aliens be dominant, I'm taking this base!

And TIM would be like

Sucker!!!

How didn't this happen?  TIM's supposed to be a crafty manipulater, he manipulated the Collectors for crying out loud, but he can't trick one ill informed idealist (not that the Renegade is any better informed).

Now I scrapped the base in my first playthrough just because I like to see things go boom and since I wasn't going for an ideal playthrough I didn't feel bad about throwing decisions away.  Since then I keep it because even if there's no weapons tech info on the base if we can understand how Reapers operate we can work out better ways to break them down.  In short a wall's a lot easier to break down when you know where the cracks are.

[ToJKa1]

I always blow it up. Why?



For many reasons. First of all, the Reaper died 37 million years ago was still able to indoctrinate the people working in it, what's to say there isn't something similar working in the Collector base.



Second, the Collectors technology is more advanced than what humans, or aliens, have. But is certainly less advanced than what the Reapers have. The new weapon and/or armor technologies that could be attained form sparing the base could help, but i seriously doubt it would be a "silver bullet" against the Reapers. Furthermore, the base would be under Cerberus control, even if the new technology was effective against the Reapers, Cerberus wouldn't have (nearly) enough ships to deal with the Reapers. Systems alliance hasnt either, and i have hard time belivieng TIM would give that tech to aliens.



As for the possibilty of TIM using it to create a "friendly" Reaper, would Cerberus have the resources to acquire the .."raw materials" required for one? And what good would one Reaper do against a fleet of thousands?

[Dean_the_Young]

No. Cerberus would not have the resources to acquire a large proportion of the human race to make one Reaper. Nor is there any sign that TIM has had a change of mind and things that genociding humans is his life mission. And relying on a single Reaper would be entirely stupid, so why would he do it?



Take the tech of Reaper-class weapons, shields, etc. You can scale production of those quite easily (such as the Thannix cannons: no need for dead babies there) across fleets.

[ILIAS R]

hmm I've got an idea why liquefy humans to build a reaper "we" can always liquefy the other races

[WandererRTF]

And how exactly do you assume such tech would be found from the Collector base? At very best the Collector base could be a 'treasure trove' of Collector tech which is not that exceptional. There is nothing really indicating that there would be similar set of reaper tech in there. Rather it seemed that at best what reaper tech you could assume to find would be husk etc. creation related stuff which is not exactly useful (let alone it might pose a risk of indoctrination in itself).



Besides Turian's were perfectly capable of reverse engineering and miniaturizing Reaper guns without any help from the Collectors from the blown up leftover from Sovereign. And if anything (from the ME2 intro and ending vids) Collector beams seem inferior even to the Thanix's on Normandy.



So you have option of salvaging a possibly hazardous (at the minimum to the 'death-trap' at the other end) space station filled with second hand tech which is apparently inferior to what Normandy was already carrying which would in any case be insufficient to combat the Reapers. More likely the whole collector base was just an incubator for baby Reapers. Inherently worthless if you aim to do something else than more Reapers.



As for researching indoctrination.. well there seemed to be plenty of sources for that even without collector base. And given that Cerberus (with very minor chance that it had been accidental) huskified a human colony they should already have all the data they need. Researching reapers - well they should already have enough bits from Sovereign...

[The Elite Elite]

It's very simple. We all saw that they were creating a Reaper. Therefore, I'd say there's a good chance that somewhere in that base is a computer detailing the process on making reapers. From that, we could see the general structure of reapers and learn of structural weaknesses that could be exploited in the coming battle. Just that alone is reason enough to keep the base. Not to mention that there might be other information about the reapers sitting in one of the base computers. Remember, from the lack of any real defenses after going through the Omega relay, it would seem that the reapers never expected anyone to actually make it to the Collector base, much less be able to take it over. Who knows what information or tech is laying around the base unprotected.

[Mycrus Ironfist]

i'm a paragon and i chose to keep the collector base.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

The Elite Elite wrote...

It's very simple. We all saw that they were creating a Reaper. Therefore, I'd say there's a good chance that somewhere in that base is a computer detailing the process on making reapers. From that, we could see the general structure of reapers and learn of structural weaknesses that could be exploited in the coming battle. Just that alone is reason enough to keep the base. Not to mention that there might be other information about the reapers sitting in one of the base computers. Remember, from the lack of any real defenses after going through the Omega relay, it would seem that the reapers never expected anyone to actually make it to the Collector base, much less be able to take it over. Who knows what information or tech is laying around the base unprotected.

except that regardless of what ending you choose, at the end, your sitting there with an data-pad showing reaper schematics.

[ILIAS R]

The Elite Elite wrote...

It's very simple. We all saw that they were creating a Reaper. Therefore, I'd say there's a good chance that somewhere in that base is a computer detailing the process on making reapers. From that, we could see the general structure of reapers and learn of structural weaknesses that could be exploited in the coming battle. Just that alone is reason enough to keep the base. Not to mention that there might be other information about the reapers sitting in one of the base computers. Remember, from the lack of any real defenses after going through the Omega relay, it would seem that the reapers never expected anyone to actually make it to the Collector base, much less be able to take it over. Who knows what information or tech is laying around the base unprotected.

thanks my thoughts exactly
I know it's to much to ask (developers) but a DLC like return to collector's base might set thing's " twisted" right a new ending DLC how about that?

[tallinn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, in context:

Gambling with a return to cycles galactic extinction with far inferior forces is preferable to evening the odds at the cost of human political dominance of the Universe.

Even shorter: It's better for everyone to die than for humans to be the dominant political/economic/military power.

It may be not that simple. I expect the TIM to turn out as a moron who is overestimating his power to "arrange" with the Reapers,underestimating the inevitable wish for destruction programmed into those machines. I expect that he will reveal his own agenda where defeating the Reapers is not number one topic, not even a necessary thing to do. If you can't beat the devil learn to live with him - that would fit perfectly to the TIM character outlined so far.

Which means: supporting the ideas oft the TIM does not help the "Defeat the Reaper" cause but may cause more trouble instead.

Not that I expect ME3 to make life harder for one side or the other regarding the decision of destroying or keeping the base. The TIM will be nasty enough on its very own. Maybe it will work out this way: two start missions, one for a Shepard that destroyed the base and is already done with Cerberus and one for a Shepard who keeps the base, is still with Cerberus but detects their malicious nature eventually. After either start mission the background for the remaining ME3 story (Shepard vs the Rest of the world - isn't that always the hero theme) is complete. This time shepard will have to raise his party without any support by a stronger organisation. He will probably steal the Normandy and continue his mission as a "pirate". Enemies everywhere: the Council, Cerberus, the Reapers...

[FlintlockJazz]

The Elite Elite wrote...

It's very simple. We all saw that they were creating a Reaper. Therefore, I'd say there's a good chance that somewhere in that base is a computer detailing the process on making reapers. From that, we could see the general structure of reapers and learn of structural weaknesses that could be exploited in the coming battle. Just that alone is reason enough to keep the base. Not to mention that there might be other information about the reapers sitting in one of the base computers. Remember, from the lack of any real defenses after going through the Omega relay, it would seem that the reapers never expected anyone to actually make it to the Collector base, much less be able to take it over. Who knows what information or tech is laying around the base unprotected.

Why would there be a computer describing reapers in intricate detail there?  For the mindless Collectors to look up?  Harbinger would just tell them what to do, or its programmed into the collector brain.  And why would they have reaper tech lying around unused?  They had what the reapers deemed necessary to do their job, as Mordin states they have no society, no art, nothing, they are tools. 

If the base had anything that the reapers truly feared falling into the hands of the enemy, they would have set the base to self-destruct themselves.

[Dean_the_Young]

WandererRTF wrote...

And how exactly do you assume such tech would be found from the Collector base? At very best the Collector base could be a 'treasure trove' of Collector tech which is not that exceptional. There is nothing really indicating that there would be similar set of reaper tech in there. Rather it seemed that at best what reaper tech you could assume to find would be husk etc. creation related stuff which is not exactly useful (let alone it might pose a risk of indoctrination in itself).

Because the game tells us that the Collector base has Reaper technology that would have galaxy-shaping consequences. That's the long and the short of it. It's the entire basis for the choice in the first place: you can either destroy the base, taking only what knowledge EDI was able to rip in the brief time you were there, or you can capture it in full and have the time for a full recovery of data, equipment, and reverse engineer the Reapers themselves. That means Reaper guns, reaper armor, reaper engines, Reaper matieral sciences, and even Reaper AI warfare. The facility is made to produce Reapers: while the Collectors were always kept to be only at cutting edge tech just ahead of the galactic standard, the Reapers themselves are the pinnacles of Reaper tech. They are not marginal advances.


It's narrative authenticitiy, the weight of choice, and the entire drama of the final choice rolled out on a red carpet for you. They spell it out for you: keeping the base will spark an entire new technological revolution, an advancement as significant as the original discovering of the Martian data cache. Blowing it up destorys that chance, leaving you with only a few scraps.

Is it oversimplified? Yes: ME2 did suffer from some lackluster writing, here and elsewhere. But they did embrace occam's razor: the simplest answer is truest, and in regards to the final choice they made it very simple indeed. Keeping Collector base = major increase in tech, at the price of human dominance.

Besides Turian's were perfectly capable of reverse engineering and miniaturizing Reaper guns without any help from the Collectors from the blown up leftover from Sovereign. And if anything (from the ME2 intro and ending vids) Collector beams seem inferior even to the Thanix's on Normandy.

That only illustrates the point of keeping the base even more: the Turians were able to reverse engineer a generational leap in weapon's technology just from the scraps of Sovereign, after it had been blown to smithereens and scattered in millions of pieces. Now imagine if they had been able to study Sovereign intact, with full system integrity and open data available: the results would have made the Thanix look like a pea shooter. The Thannix? It's table scraps of the real prize. Being satisfied with that is like selling the deed to a gold mine and calling yourself rich for keeping just a few nuggets.

As for researching indoctrination.. well there seemed to be plenty of sources for that even without collector base. And given that Cerberus (with very minor chance that it had been accidental) huskified a human colony they should already have all the data they need. Researching reapers - well they should already have enough bits from Sovereign...

Shoulda, woulda, don't. Everyone was snatching as much from Sovereign as they could geet away with, and what was left wasn't enough to convince the Council that Sovereign wasn't simply a somewhat advanced Geth creation.

Musing against the canon doesn't change the facts of the lore. The Reaper tech in the Collector base, whatever the danger, will give technological advances not seen since the discovery of element zero.

[Dean_the_Young]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
except that regardless of what ending you choose, at the end, your sitting there with an data-pad showing reaper schematics.

And for anyone who thinks that schematics alone don't cut it, look and see just how easy it is to reverse engineer an F-15 from schematics like these or this or this.

And remember, if you need something more than picture, like some sort of example or production facility, perhaps in some sort of secret military facility...

Then you're wrong!

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 avril 2010 - 03:48 .

[The Elite Elite]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

WandererRTF wrote...

And how exactly do you assume such tech would be found from the Collector base? At very best the Collector base could be a 'treasure trove' of Collector tech which is not that exceptional. There is nothing really indicating that there would be similar set of reaper tech in there. Rather it seemed that at best what reaper tech you could assume to find would be husk etc. creation related stuff which is not exactly useful (let alone it might pose a risk of indoctrination in itself).

Because the game tells us that the Collector base has Reaper technology that would have galaxy-shaping consequences. That's the long and the short of it. It's the entire basis for the choice in the first place: you can either destroy the base, taking only what knowledge EDI was able to rip in the brief time you were there, or you can capture it in full and have the time for a full recovery of data, equipment, and reverse engineer the Reapers themselves. That means Reaper guns, reaper armor, reaper engines, Reaper matieral sciences, and even Reaper AI warfare. The facility is made to produce Reapers: while the Collectors were always kept to be only at cutting edge tech just ahead of the galactic standard, the Reapers themselves are the pinnacles of Reaper tech. They are not marginal advances.


It's narrative authenticitiy, the weight of choice, and the entire drama of the final choice rolled out on a red carpet for you. They spell it out for you: keeping the base will spark an entire new technological revolution, an advancement as significant as the original discovering of the Martian data cache. Blowing it up destorys that chance, leaving you with only a few scraps.

Is it oversimplified? Yes: ME2 did suffer from some lackluster writing, here and elsewhere. But they did embrace occam's razor: the simplest answer is truest, and in regards to the final choice they made it very simple indeed. Keeping Collector base = major increase in tech, at the price of human dominance.

Besides Turian's were perfectly capable of reverse engineering and miniaturizing Reaper guns without any help from the Collectors from the blown up leftover from Sovereign. And if anything (from the ME2 intro and ending vids) Collector beams seem inferior even to the Thanix's on Normandy.

That only illustrates the point of keeping the base even more: the Turians were able to reverse engineer a generational leap in weapon's technology just from the scraps of Sovereign, after it had been blown to smithereens and scattered in millions of pieces. Now imagine if they had been able to study Sovereign intact, with full system integrity and open data available: the results would have made the Thanix look like a pea shooter. The Thannix? It's table scraps of the real prize. Being satisfied with that is like selling the deed to a gold mine and calling yourself rich for keeping just a few nuggets.

As for researching indoctrination.. well there seemed to be plenty of sources for that even without collector base. And given that Cerberus (with very minor chance that it had been accidental) huskified a human colony they should already have all the data they need. Researching reapers - well they should already have enough bits from Sovereign...

Shoulda, woulda, don't. Everyone was snatching as much from Sovereign as they could geet away with, and what was left wasn't enough to convince the Council that Sovereign wasn't simply a somewhat advanced Geth creation.

Musing against the canon doesn't change the facts of the lore. The Reaper tech in the Collector base, whatever the danger, will give technological advances not seen since the discovery of element zero.

^ This. I think this pretty much sums up why to keep the base intact.

[WandererRTF]

Where was it exactly declared that base had any Reaper knowledge?

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

WandererRTF wrote...

And how exactly do you assume such tech would be found from the Collector base? At very best the Collector base could be a 'treasure trove' of Collector tech which is not that exceptional. There is nothing really indicating that there would be similar set of reaper tech in there. Rather it seemed that at best what reaper tech you could assume to find would be husk etc. creation related stuff which is not exactly useful (let alone it might pose a risk of indoctrination in itself).

Is it oversimplified? Yes: ME2 did suffer from some lackluster writing, here and elsewhere. But they did embrace occam's razor: the simplest answer is truest, and in regards to the final choice they made it very simple indeed. Keeping Collector base = major increase in tech, at the price of human dominance.

It would be at the other way around. Major increase in tech that only CERBERSUS would get. As TIM quotes "Cerbersus is humanity".  why would they share it with aliens? why? They want humans to be leading the charge, and what better by giving the alliance warships their new tech that they discovered. Suddenly the alliance is suddenly way ahead in terms of the balance of power. That could even spark an war between the council and the alliance. I am sorry, but even with recent change in leadership, Cerbersus is still an orginization that wants one thing and one thing only - human domenence, TIM says it right from the get-go.  

Keeping the base might mean that you instead, have to quell the war between the council and the alliance while getting everyone ready for the reapers, another thing on the to-do list. Or heck, it could be an quick war where the alliance smashes the council and takes control of the citadel. 

[Dean_the_Young]

...is that a joke?



It has to be. There's no way someone would-



You remember? Big, tall, and Terminator-y?

[WandererRTF]

It had baby Reaper.. or rather dead one.. Much less so after the huge explosion. Which is nothing different from what they had from Sovereign.

[ILIAS R]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
except that regardless of what ending you choose, at the end, your sitting there with an data-pad showing reaper schematics.

And for anyone who thinks that schematics alone don't cut it, look and see just how easy it is to reverse engineer an F-15 from schematics like these or this or this.

And remember, if you need something more than picture, like some sort of example or production facility, perhaps in some sort of secret military facility...

Then you're wrong!

dean my friend no it's not that easy (thank god for that ) but yes you're right- as always- now can i liquefy people to build my fleet of reapers

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Is it oversimplified? Yes: ME2 did suffer from some lackluster writing, here and elsewhere. But they did embrace occam's razor: the simplest answer is truest, and in regards to the final choice they made it very simple indeed. Keeping Collector base = major increase in tech, at the price of human dominance.

[/quote]

It would be at the other way around. Major increase in tech that only CERBERSUS would get. As TIM quotes "Cerbersus is humanity".  why would they share it with aliens? why? They want humans to be leading the charge, and what better by giving the alliance warships their new tech that they discovered. Suddenly the alliance is suddenly way ahead in terms of the balance of power. That could even spark an war between the council and the alliance. I am sorry, but even with recent change in leadership, Cerbersus is still an orginization that wants one thing and one thing only - human domenence, TIM says it right from the get-go.  

Keeping the base might mean that you instead, have to quell the war between the council and the alliance while getting everyone ready for the reapers, another thing on the to-do list. Or heck, it could be an quick war where the alliance smashes the council and takes control of the citadel. 

[/quote]The Council races didn't declare war if humanity left the Council to die and formed an all-human Council: it isn't going to start one when the Alliance gets even stronger. And that's the super-offensive xenophobic Renegade path: if the Council was saved, then they're even less likely to suddenly turn on Humanity and start a war they would still be in a position to lose.

The Council and Council races are so passive it's the reason they have to be shoved to do anything. They aren't going to start a war that they'll obviously lose. They'll do what they did if you performed the galactic coup: mutter angrily and accept it.


And I'll note you actually agreed with my main point, about saving the base meaning tech boost and human dominance.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And I'll note you actually agreed with my main point, about saving the base meaning tech boost and human dominance.

actually the wording you had meant the oppsite. You gained reaper tech, but at the price (meaning - having to give up, unable to obtain) human dominance. My whole point was that just like killing the council intentionally, this could lead to another decision like the one you made, and could have drastic consequences for doing so, not just tech wise.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 20 avril 2010 - 04:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

WandererRTF wrote...

It had baby Reaper.. or rather dead one.. Much less so after the huge explosion. Which is nothing different from what they had from Sovereign.

You do realize that building a Reaper entails the knowledge and facilities to do so, yes? The Reaper larva's size was a function of the lack of materials (humans), not a lack of knowledge and ability. Keeping the base means keeping that knowledge and ability for study. The machines to build a reaper-class engine, for example, can be studied for advances regardless of whether or not you use Reaper goo or other materials to build it.

The Collector Base is building a complete Reaper. By necessity, the Collector Base has the technology, machinery, and data to do so. Keeping the base is saving that tech and machinery and all the data, which would be the foundation for the scientific advancement. Destroying it means you can only get some fraction of the data.