437 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

smudboy wrote...
This is an excellent point.

On another point, I do find it interesting, though, that the research team from the Derelict Reaper didn't find any (known, useable) technology save the IFF, but that the Collector Base is the next big breakthrough.  'course, this is all dependent on what was left behind, 37 million years ago, whereas the Base is current.

I'd go to Occam's Razor for this: their priority given by the Illusive Man was the IFF, and that's about all they got before Indoctrination got them. Had you not been locked in and forced to destroy the e-zero drive core and lose the Reaper to the planet, I've no doubt Cerberus would have gotten quite the prize once Indoctrination countermeasures were implemented.

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Certainly they never wanted Shepard to get to the Collector Base and find Reaper tech: even the Collector Ship trap didn't have the IFF itself, and the only way Shepard got it was because Cerberus found the lost Reaper corpse which had been missing since before the Protheans.

That is simply wrong as the data mined from the trap indicate "No IFF - no (safe) way through the Omega 4 relay". By the time EDI gets hit by the virus attack and Shepard springs the trap, there's just no time left to find out where exactly on the Collector ship the IFF is installed, let alone go there and pick it up.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

smudboy wrote...
This is an excellent point.

On
another point, I do find it interesting, though, that the research team
from the Derelict Reaper didn't find any (known, useable) technology
save the IFF, but that the Collector Base is the next big
breakthrough.  'course, this is all dependent on what was left behind,
37 million years ago, whereas the Base is current.

I'd go to
Occam's Razor for this: their priority given by the Illusive Man was
the IFF, and that's about all they got before Indoctrination got them.
Had you not been locked in and forced to destroy the e-zero drive core
and lose the Reaper to the planet, I've no doubt Cerberus would have
gotten quite the prize once Indoctrination countermeasures were
implemented.

From the conversation I take it that the Cerberus research team boarded the Derelict before we even learnt about the IFF transponder. They looked for things that could be removed for study.

Modifié par Wildecker, 21 avril 2010 - 05:54 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Alright, I suppose I should have rephrased that: certainly they never wanted Shepard to get to the Collector Base and find Reaper tech: Shepard wasn't even able to get it from the Reaper Ship trap which was the one reasonable chance to find one (until Cerberus out and found that dead Reaper).

[WandererRTF]

There was no evidence what so ever that Cerberus has any kind of indoctrination countermeasures (Saren wasted considerably more time on the same subject and failed - even though he had direct access to indoctrination tech). And IMO no good reason to expect anything such. Of course there are no indications that countermeasures against indoctrination couldn't exists but that does not mean that Cerberus would be able to create a countermeasure. TBH having access to health data is more like to provide clues on how to ID indoctrinated persons (assuming there are any physiological traces) than to do anything else (and even that was with totally groundless assumption).

One example on how Reapers control the technological progress are the Collectors. In their trading they give away essentially priceless new technology beyond what is currently existing tech which usually proliferates throughout the Citadel & Terminus space for some limited number of specific type of living beings (slaves, most likely just to be made into slurry and analyzed). Trade relation seemingly beneficial to slavers but in the end advances Reaper goals on two separate tracks. First it gives them nice data on which species to annihilate, which to indoctrinate and which to use as reaperfodder. Second it gives them a control over which direction the technology will advance.

Modifié par WandererRTF, 21 avril 2010 - 06:21 .

[FlintlockJazz]

WandererRTF wrote...

There was no evidence what so ever
that Cerberus has any kind of indoctrination countermeasures (Saren
wasted considerably more time on the same subject and failed - even
though he had direct access to indoctrination tech). And IMO no good
reason to expect anything such. Of course there are no indications that
countermeasures against indoctrination couldn't exists but that does
not mean that Cerberus would be able to create a countermeasure. TBH
having access to health data is more like to provide clues on how to ID
indoctrinated persons (assuming there are any physiological traces)
than to do anything else (and even that was with totally groundless
assumption).

Yep, and even Saren had problems coming up with ways to ID indoctrination with his own first hand research.  About the only thing that stands up against reaper indoctrination is being too useful (to the reaper) to be mindwiped fully.

WandererRTF wrote...

One example on how Reapers control the technological progress are the Collectors. In their trading they give away essentially priceless new technology beyond what is currently existing tech which usually proliferates throughout the Citadel & Terminus space for some limited number of specific type of living beings (slaves, most likely just to be made into slurry and analyzed). Trade relation seemingly beneficial to slavers but in the end advances Reaper goals on two separate tracks. First it gives them nice data on which species to annihilate, which to indoctrinate and which to use as reaperfodder. Second it gives them a control over which direction the technology will advance.

That's actually a damn good point, one that is right in our face and yet often overlooked: the collectors give out technology and it ends up being incorporated into society, just like the mass relays.

The way I see it, the reapers do not start the invasion when the races start to reach a level in which they can be a threat, but rather 'when they are ready'.  Like a chef, the reapers have brewed the ingredients together, brought it slowly to the boil, and then served up the roast beef for eating, om nom nom!  When they invade, they don't just GENOCIDE!!! everyone but also harvest tech and resources, with the last reaper invasion putting whole planets of indoctrinated protheans to use mining resources for them before then leaving them to die of exposure or starvation once the galaxy was picked clean, while simultaneously ignoring anyone who wasn't high enough technologically to matter.  This leads me to think the reapers are guiding the races so that they will have the required infrastructure in place for the soon-to-be-enslaved races to utilise in service to their masters.

Although, talking about the reapers ignoring low-tech civilisations, makes me wonder if the best tactic is actually to hide or destroy all the advanced civilisation, strip down to your pants, and run around with a club going 'ug ug' so that when the reapers arrive they'll think Harbinger was smoking something when he said that the races were ready and hope they don't notice the spaceship you have stashed back in your cave for when they decide to leave.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 21 avril 2010 - 06:38 .

[Joonasp]

I destroyed it. Not for the reason of the tehnology leap.



If really TiM is for humanity I fear his humanocentrism and nationalism gets the best of him. Imagine the humanity with the most advanced tehnology in known space. They would soon enough blitz on the galaxy. Moderates like Anderson and other would be cast away, Council would be humanocentric, eventualy other races would be demoted to second rate priority. The work made by Shepard at Citadel by saving the council would go waste. Races wouldn't trust humans anymore and fragmentation would still stay even if Reapers would come since other races wouldn't trust humans who toppled them before.



On the other hand if humans would stay equal with other races and don't tarnish their reputation in another brash and unnececary move other races would be assured that they could be trusted to unite under one banner against unified threat.

[Dean_the_Young]

I respect that opinion and even agree with the logic, even if I don't agree with the conclusion. A case of 2 < 3.



First and foremost, galactic survival trumps who's on top. Second comes the most lives saved. Reaper technology is the closest assurance of the first, and is the means for the second: It's not just human lives who will be saved by a super-strong Alliance fleet, but also the lives of Turians, Asari, Quarians, even Batarians who won't die because superior human warships could meet the Reapers on less unequal terms. The Reapers are a threat to everyone, including humans, and that means TIM isn't going to play stupid. There certainly is an extent to which I say that fewer collective casualties, including the aliens, outweighs the formation of a unipolar galaxy.

[sinisternym]

Every time you swiped your omni tool across a terminal and received credits your downloading all it's data sending a copy to cerberus and receiving funds from cerberus in exchange for that technology.

Ever notice that the amount of money you get from those terminals is 7k credits a wave on the dead reaper? In fact the highest per swipe are the reaper and the collector ship.

All that data you downloaded to your omnitool from the reaper ship is probably for that data pad at the end.

Edit: Now that I think about it when you used the omnitool on the platform to travel to the center of that collector base that was probably when you got that info on the datapad.

When on the the reaper ship you find a few weapons modifications that were made from technology cerberus was able to adapt from the reapers.

If Bioware wanted to use the traitor to the council subplot this is how they would call you a traitor regardless if you gave the base away or not.

Every single time you scanned your omnitool at any point during mass effect from a terminal you transferred technological material to cerberus.

Modifié par sinisternym, 22 avril 2010 - 01:20 .

[Sharptooth]

I choose to hand over the base to Cerberus, the very organisation who prevented an easy way towards genocide (for the Reapers, through their pawns the Collectors) by reviving Shepard and plunging billions of dollars into ensuring the continued existence of all kinds, although humanity first. Yes you read that correctly. While The Illusive Man might be an advocate and pinnacle of pro-humanity ideology, he does the other races service by positioning our species on top of the foodchain and preventing danger for the other races before they even have a clue what's going on.



One of the reasons why I did this was because of the fact that I let the Rachni live in ME1, converted the heretics to follow their fellow Geth and took the data from Maelon's research and gave it Mordin. Let's look at what's on the table, the Rachni survived and despite her claims for mercy and singing songs about me and doing good in the future, the Rachni Queen and the species she represents deserve the same level of trust that The Illusive Man does, which is little I can say.



The same can be said for Krogan that are cured of the genophage, while I hold Wrex in high esteem personally, I cannot allow the Krogan populace to grow uncontrollably and not have something behind my sleeve. Again, the Krogan race commands the same level of trust as TIM, which is somewhere in the neighbourhood of zilch.



Then we have the Geth whom are, thanks to my decision, all buddies now. I especially almost started to wet my pants when Geth started to talk about the grand future for the Geth "becoming incalculably intelligent", as he put it. The Geth too, cannot be trusted, much like TIM.



Without preserving the Collector Base, humanity would've nothing to put against possible tyranny of the Rachni, Krogan or Geth. By being consistent in my Paragon choices (except, obviously the Base) I hope to have spread the balance of power enough so that even with Reaper Technology, humanity itself is also kept in check by those three groups of power. Should it not come to war, there will be a total of four grand armies to take the fight towards the Reapers.



I do not trust an autocrat such as TIM and his Cerberus as much as I would like, but they are a far more capable force than the Council, Systems Alliance or other representative groups. Should I be given the choice in ME3, I will yet again lead a Cerberus-backed team towards danger, simply because they now what to do in the most dire of situations and handle it as it should be. And that's coming from a guy who's a near total paragon.



I've got plenty of other reasons, such as evidence (might wake up the Council one day), technological advancement and knowing your enemy. But I'll leave it at this.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think that balance of power argument is quite simply one of the best I've heard in ages. It completely reframes the question: is giving the base putting Humanity dominant over the Council, or is giving the base keeping Humanity from being dragged down with the Council relative to traditional and historic threats to the galaxy?

[Lumikki]

I play paragon Shepard.



I also destroyed the Collector base, because even how valuable it would have been as technology point, it would also destroy all other work what I have done. I mean, my main goal has been unite all races so that they all stand agaist reapers as united. So, I have build trust and loyalty to them. If you look ME2 as hole, You see that many squad members where from different races. So, they loyalty could be part of make so that all races would become togather.



Then there was rachni queen, Vrex in Krogan world, saving council with Anderson in right place, saving Geth's station and trying to create peace between Quarians and Geths.



Why to trust someone and not someone else? It's the motive what is behind it, is the person ruthless for goals or sympatic for others. I don't judge races because what they have done, I judge induvidual what they have done. Hate and fear agaist race because indiuviduals is pointless, because every induvidual isn't same. We humans should know that very well. How ever, I don't put power to hand of induvidual who's motives and actions aren't necassary right.

[Dean_the_Young]

How does keeping the Collector Base destroy the alliances you have built?



Does the Rachni Queen refuse to aid you because of it? Will Wrex turn his back on you? Will the Quarians give a damn about who rules the rest of the galaxy? Will Anderson say '**** you' to the Council and rest of the alien species?

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How does keeping the Collector Base destroy the alliances you have built?

Does the Rachni Queen refuse to aid you because of it? Will Wrex turn his back on you? Will the Quarians give a damn about who rules the rest of the galaxy? Will Anderson say '**** you' to the Council and rest of the alien species?

It's about what's TIM gonna do with it. TIM doens't care anything else than improving humans and save them as race. Meaning he is very ruthless by method he use. You really want to put best possible technology to his hand without really knowing how far his gonna go? He could even build his own reapers. I mean TIM actually could do it and justify it by it's necassary to save us.

How would my building trust to others look, if I did put TIM in control of that technology?
Listen, You gave collector base with all technology to terrorist organisation?

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 mai 2010 - 12:50 .

[Vaenier]

Why is it impossible to keep the collector base? Is Shep that stupid that he could not figure out how to get non Cerberus researchers there to study it? Or did bioware just remove part of his brain in order to create "important choices"...

[Lumikki]

Vaenier wrote...

Why is it impossible to keep the collector base? Is Shep that stupid that he could not figure out how to get non Cerberus researchers there to study it? Or did bioware just remove part of his brain in order to create "important choices"...

If it would been possible to give it to Council to study, I would have kept the base. It's not about Shepard stupidy, it's the options what you have. Give the base for TIM or blow it up. Choose?

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 mai 2010 - 01:10 .

[Vaenier]

Lumikki wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Why is it impossible to keep the collector base? Is Shep that stupid that he could not figure out how to get non Cerberus researchers there to study it? Or did bioware just remove part of his brain in order to create "important choices"...

If it would been possible to give it to Council to study, I would have kept the base. It's not about Shepard stupidy, it's the options what you have. Give the base for TIM or blow it up. Choose?

It is Shep's stupidity for being unable to consider this alternate choice that is superior to the current choices, and is just as easy to achieve...

Correction: It isBioware's stupidity for being unable to consider this alternate choice that is superior to the current  choices, and is just as easy to achieve...

Modifié par Vaenier, 28 mai 2010 - 01:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How does keeping the Collector Base destroy the alliances you have built?

Does the Rachni Queen refuse to aid you because of it? Will Wrex turn his back on you? Will the Quarians give a damn about who rules the rest of the galaxy? Will Anderson say '**** you' to the Council and rest of the alien species?

It's about what's TIM gonna do with it. TIM doens't care anything else than improving humans and save them as race. Meaning he is very ruthless by method he use. You really want to put best possible technology to his hand without really knowing how far his gonna go? He could even build his own reapers. I mean TIM actually could do it and justify it by it's necassary to save us.

How would my building trust to others look, if I did put TIM in control of that technology?

TIM doesn't represent humanity. TIM is someone the Alliance hates. Come to it, Shepard doesn't represent humanity either, nor is there reason to suspect the Collector Base decision would become common knowledge: none of the significant players from TIM on down would want it to spread.

I'll ask again. Why would giving the Collector Base to TIM lead to all aliens refusing to help the Alliance in the war against the Reapers?

There are a number of reasons TIM won't build reapers from the base, starting from he physically can't (can't get the number of bodies to do so) to no reason to (the most effecient use of Reaper technology would be to put the tech developments on large numbers of ships, not build individual reapers) to no desire (TIM has yet to commit genocide, has no reason to want to start a galactic civil war before the Reapers arrive).

Listen, You gave collector base with all technology to terrorist
organisation?

To lessen a massive technological gap between us and the Reapers before an inevitable war? To give an advantage that will not only increase the likelyhood of the galaxy winning, but also lessen the number of casualties, human and alien, needed to do so?

In a heart beat. Who Cerberus is is far less important than the ultimate effects of the result, which is going to be the better survival of the galaxy and less lives lost. Far fewer lives will be lost with the Collector Base than without it.

If I were particular about giving technology to Cerberus, I wouldn't have been scanning all those technologies for Cerberus credit bounties throughout the game. Or do you refuse to do that as well?

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Why is it impossible to keep the collector base? Is Shep that stupid that he could not figure out how to get non Cerberus researchers there to study it? Or did bioware just remove part of his brain in order to create "important choices"...

Cerberus has the Reaper IFF. Cerberus has the ability to pass through the Omega 4 Relay.

To give the Collector Base to someone else, Shepard would have to leave the Collector Base, go to the Citadel, meet with the Council/Alliance and convince them that there is a Collector Base full of "Reaper" technology, organize an expedition of force and number to go straight into the heart of the Terminus systems (you know, the ones that could spark a war at any time), and install the IFF on other ships before leaving.

At which point, they would most likely find an largely empty Collector Base, if Cerberus hadn't blown the rest up already.

[Lumikki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

It's about what's TIM gonna do with it. TIM doens't care anything else than improving humans and save them as race. Meaning he is very ruthless by method he use. You really want to put best possible technology to his hand without really knowing how far his gonna go? He could even build his own reapers. I mean TIM actually could do it and justify it by it's necassary to save us.

How would my building trust to others look, if I did put TIM in control of that technology?

TIM doesn't represent humanity. TIM is someone the Alliance hates. Come to it, Shepard doesn't represent humanity either, nor is there reason to suspect the Collector Base decision would become common knowledge: none of the significant players from TIM on down would want it to spread.

I'll ask again. Why would giving the Collector Base to TIM lead to all aliens refusing to help the Alliance in the war against the Reapers?

There are a number of reasons TIM won't build reapers from the base, starting from he physically can't (can't get the number of bodies to do so) to no reason to (the most effecient use of Reaper technology would be to put the tech developments on large numbers of ships, not build individual reapers) to no desire (TIM has yet to commit genocide, has no reason to want to start a galactic civil war before the Reapers arrive).

Listen, You gave collector base with all technology to terrorist
organisation?

To lessen a massive technological gap between us and the Reapers before an inevitable war? To give an advantage that will not only increase the likelyhood of the galaxy winning, but also lessen the number of casualties, human and alien, needed to do so?

In a heart beat. Who Cerberus is is far less important than the ultimate effects of the result, which is going to be the better survival of the galaxy and less lives lost. Far fewer lives will be lost with the Collector Base than without it.

If I were particular about giving technology to Cerberus, I wouldn't have been scanning all those technologies for Cerberus credit bounties throughout the game. Or do you refuse to do that as well?

You trust TIM, I don't trust TIM. I never worked for TIM, I used TIM to get job done. I have allways worked for Council, I'm Specter. If there would have been possibility give the collector base for Council, I would have, but game did not give that choise.

Modifié par Lumikki, 28 mai 2010 - 01:31 .

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Why is it impossible to keep the collector base? Is Shep that stupid that he could not figure out how to get non Cerberus researchers there to study it? Or did bioware just remove part of his brain in order to create "important choices"...

Cerberus has the Reaper IFF. Cerberus has the ability to pass through the Omega 4 Relay.

To give the Collector Base to someone else, Shepard would have to leave the Collector Base, go to the Citadel, meet with the Council/Alliance and convince them that there is a Collector Base full of "Reaper" technology, organize an expedition of force and number to go straight into the heart of the Terminus systems (you know, the ones that could spark a war at any time), and install the IFF on other ships before leaving.

At which point, they would most likely find an largely empty Collector Base, if Cerberus hadn't blown the rest up already.

"I found the secret headquarters of the terrorist organization Cerberus! If you hurry, you can catch them before they escape!" *gives Collector base location* "They rigged the relay, so we need to take this captured Cerberus ship to get through."

Win! Eat cake.

Better yet, dont make an even bigger plot hole by allowing Cerberus to manufacture Reaper IFFs for multiple ships in less than one day... without ever even having Shep give TIM the scans of the device...

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Why is it impossible to keep the collector base? Is Shep that stupid that he could not figure out how to get non Cerberus researchers there to study it? Or did bioware just remove part of his brain in order to create "important choices"...

Cerberus has the Reaper IFF. Cerberus has the ability to pass through the Omega 4 Relay.

To give the Collector Base to someone else, Shepard would have to leave the Collector Base, go to the Citadel, meet with the Council/Alliance and convince them that there is a Collector Base full of "Reaper" technology, organize an expedition of force and number to go straight into the heart of the Terminus systems (you know, the ones that could spark a war at any time), and install the IFF on other ships before leaving.

At which point, they would most likely find an largely empty Collector Base, if Cerberus hadn't blown the rest up already.

"I found the secret headquarters of the terrorist organization Cerberus! If you hurry, you can catch them before they escape!" *gives Collector base location* "They rigged the relay, so we need to take this captured Cerberus ship to get through."

Win! Eat cake.

Better yet, dont make an even bigger plot hole by allowing Cerberus to manufacture Reaper IFFs for multiple ships in less than one day... without ever even having Shep give TIM the scans of the device...

You don't understand what a plot hole is, then.

The Reaper IFF is a signal to be broadcast. It's software: it's not like they ripped a chunk of the Reaper out and took it with them. There's no reason Cerberus shouldn't be able to replicate it a second time after the derilect Reaper team was able to get it the first time.

Moreover, you gave it to EDI. Everything that goes to EDI goes to the Illusive Man.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lumikki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

It's about what's TIM gonna do with it. TIM doens't care anything else than improving humans and save them as race. Meaning he is very ruthless by method he use. You really want to put best possible technology to his hand without really knowing how far his gonna go? He could even build his own reapers. I mean TIM actually could do it and justify it by it's necassary to save us.

How would my building trust to others look, if I did put TIM in control of that technology?

TIM doesn't represent humanity. TIM is someone the Alliance hates. Come to it, Shepard doesn't represent humanity either, nor is there reason to suspect the Collector Base decision would become common knowledge: none of the significant players from TIM on down would want it to spread.

I'll ask again. Why would giving the Collector Base to TIM lead to all aliens refusing to help the Alliance in the war against the Reapers?

There are a number of reasons TIM won't build reapers from the base, starting from he physically can't (can't get the number of bodies to do so) to no reason to (the most effecient use of Reaper technology would be to put the tech developments on large numbers of ships, not build individual reapers) to no desire (TIM has yet to commit genocide, has no reason to want to start a galactic civil war before the Reapers arrive).

Listen, You gave collector base with all technology to terrorist
organisation?

To lessen a massive technological gap between us and the Reapers before an inevitable war? To give an advantage that will not only increase the likelyhood of the galaxy winning, but also lessen the number of casualties, human and alien, needed to do so?

In a heart beat. Who Cerberus is is far less important than the ultimate effects of the result, which is going to be the better survival of the galaxy and less lives lost. Far fewer lives will be lost with the Collector Base than without it.

If I were particular about giving technology to Cerberus, I wouldn't have been scanning all those technologies for Cerberus credit bounties throughout the game. Or do you refuse to do that as well?

You trust TIM, I don't trust TIM. I never worked for TIM, I used TIM to get job done. I have allways worked for Council, I'm Specter. If there would have been possibility give the collector base for Council, I would have, but game did not give that choise.

Strictly speaking, you've only worked for the Council for maybe about six monthes. You've worked for humanity for years.

Trusting TIM has nothing to do with understanding that he will use the technology, and that the galaxy will benefit from it overall. TIM is logical, and TIM is predictable. He gives you his mission statement first thing.

TIM not using the Collector Base to even the odds against the Reapers would be illogical and detrimental to humanity. Strengthening humanity in preparation for the Reapers will also strengthen the galactic defense capability, which will save human, Turian, Asari, Quarian, Salarian, and many more species' lives.

A stronger humanity is just that: stronger. More capable of opposing the Reapers which threaten everyone.

[Zulu_DFA]

If you spare the Base, TIM has a dilemma to solve: to improve the Galaxy's chances against the Reapers and maximize the Humanity's chance for dominance in the post-Reaper Galaxy by giving the Collector technlogy exclusively to Humans... OR maximize the Galaxy's chances against the Reapers and forfeit the best chance to secure Humanity's dominance in the post-Reaper Galaxy by sharing the Collector technology with all the rest...



But if you blow up the Base, the Collector technology is destroyed forever, and the the Galaxy's chnces agaist the Reapers are at the minimum. But your paragon alien-loving innocent-protecting self-righteous conscience remains unruffled. Great job!