65 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashira Shepard]

I have no real articulate reaction to this, you can see the fanfics in my sig for how much I'd really like this so...

[smudboy]

Samara simply needs more communication. She's got the greatest history of all the characters. There is a great opportunity for some meaningful romance/relationship conversations and situations.

[EricHVela]

And here I thought that WAS Samara's love scene. She didn't really reject him. She recused herself, saying she would but she was no longer the right "woman" for him.



To me, that's probably the most touching romance scene (with very little touching) -- a good reason for them to keep their clothes on instead of the others possibly doing it through their clothes (not completely discounting the engine room scene). Still, Jack showing her scared little girl side was interesting and touching (no pun intended), though quite a 180 for her.

[smudboy]

ReggarBlane wrote...

And here I thought that WAS Samara's love scene. She didn't really reject him. She recused herself, saying she would but she was no longer the right "woman" for him.

To me, that's probably the most touching romance scene (with very little touching) -- a good reason for them to keep their clothes on instead of the others possibly doing it through their clothes (not completely discounting the engine room scene). Still, Jack showing her scared little girl side was interesting and touching (no pun intended), though quite a 180 for her.

Samara's romance was the best, and that is one of the reasons.

I don't buy Jack.  I don't get how she's labeled as a psychopath, but then goes on a quest to discover herself, then starts crying.  I could buy some kind of bipolar disorder along with social dysfunction, but not psychopathy.  Just doesn't fit.  Trying to act tough doesn't make one a psychopath.

[Christmas Ape]

smudboy wrote...
I don't buy Jack.  I don't get how she's labeled as a psychopath, but then goes on a quest to discover herself, then starts crying.  I could buy some kind of bipolar disorder along with social dysfunction, but not psychopathy.  Just doesn't fit.  Trying to act tough doesn't make one a psychopath.

'The writers failed to consult the DSM-IV' is a very odd reason to dislike a character.

Does "hurt, messed-up girl wearing 'psychopath' as a defense mechanism" work better for you? I'm sure they're sorry their terminology wasn't up to snuff.

[smudboy]

Christmas Ape wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I don't buy Jack.  I don't get how she's labeled as a psychopath, but then goes on a quest to discover herself, then starts crying.  I could buy some kind of bipolar disorder along with social dysfunction, but not psychopathy.  Just doesn't fit.  Trying to act tough doesn't make one a psychopath.

'The writers failed to consult the DSM-IV' is a very odd reason to dislike a character.

Does "hurt, messed-up girl wearing 'psychopath' as a defense mechanism" work better for you? I'm sure they're sorry their terminology wasn't up to snuff.

Sure it is.  Like any other element that doesn't make sense.  (Look at Mordin's character video where he says he is seeking penance for destroying a race.  When was this?)  Anything that makes you question the universe, or where the educated might look at and go "that's crap."  I don't want PhD's to be consulted, but at least get the basics.  And this isn't even working in sci-fi, this is just basic human psych.  The fact she gets a "boyfriend" and starts crying over it?  That was hilarious.  What, does Shepard have mind alterating therapy powers, all because he "wouldn't back down"?

[EricHVela]

And there's the problem with Jack. It was a 180 with no real provocation. Going from jokingly saying "you $&#%er" at Shepard to crying in his arms when nothing like that happened previously. If she had admitted to being afraid of dying for once (after letting go of the one thing making her hate everything, freeing her to see something new), THEN the crying scene would have made a lot more sense. After all, who wouldn't be afraid of dying just when the universe just finally became a brighter place for the first time in their life?

[Christmas Ape]

smudboy wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I don't buy Jack.  I don't get how she's labeled as a psychopath, but then goes on a quest to discover herself, then starts crying.  I could buy some kind of bipolar disorder along with social dysfunction, but not psychopathy.  Just doesn't fit.  Trying to act tough doesn't make one a psychopath.

'The writers failed to consult the DSM-IV' is a very odd reason to dislike a character.

Does "hurt, messed-up girl wearing 'psychopath' as a defense mechanism" work better for you? I'm sure they're sorry their terminology wasn't up to snuff.

Sure it is.  Like any other element that doesn't make sense.  (Look at Mordin's character video where he says he is seeking penance for destroying a race.  When was this?)  Anything that makes you question the universe, or where the educated might look at and go "that's crap."  I don't want PhD's to be consulted, but at least get the basics.  And this isn't even working in sci-fi, this is just basic human psych.  The fact she gets a "boyfriend" and starts crying over it?  That was hilarious.  What, does Shepard have mind alterating therapy powers, all because he "wouldn't back down"?

Okay, I get that you veered off into your personal crusade somewhere in the...beginning?...of that, but something that was intended to be a response would have been just gravy. Never mind, though, I don't want to take time away from the really important griping. :innocent:

[Pacifien]

smudboy wrote...
Sure it is.  Like any other element that doesn't make sense.  (Look at Mordin's character video where he says he is seeking penance for destroying a race.  When was this?)  Anything that makes you question the universe, or where the educated might look at and go "that's crap."  I don't want PhD's to be consulted, but at least get the basics.  And this isn't even working in sci-fi, this is just basic human psych.  The fact she gets a "boyfriend" and starts crying over it?  That was hilarious.  What, does Shepard have mind alterating therapy powers, all because he "wouldn't back down"?

Mordin does seek penance for his role in modifying the genophage. He had a crisis of faith and looked into various religions. He sought an escape by opening up his clinic on Omega. The thing about Mordin is that he feels strongly that he did the wrong thing for the right reasons. He feels strongly that what he did needed to be done, but that his own soul was damned for being the one to do it.

Also, psychopath is a word commonly misused by the general public. You want a classic DSM-IV example of a psychopath? Look at the Illusive Man. Jack does not fit the medical definition, but she fits the common definition. Also, she doesn't cry over the fact she got a boyfriend. She cries because she's scared of what that means. It's not crap, it's a very real human reaction.

As for Samara's relationship with Shepard, I'm glad romance didn't develop between the two because Shepard has enough people trying to jump into his pants. But I think Samara has the deepest line of friendship one can offer another when she tells (a paragon)Shepard that she will always come for him if he needed her.

But having read smudboy's views on the game, I feel trying to describe meaning to any of the squadmates in ME2 isn't going to be enough. There simply isn't enough dialogue between them to make any character development feel meaningful. It's not enough to have a loyalty mission and maybe 5 conversations with the squadmate to get a true feel of their character. Must have more.

It's not an uncommon criticism of the game and it has merit. To a point.

But even if you felt character development was lacking, the one character who'd I think escapes such judgement would be Mordin. From the very first conversation you can have with him, he gives you considerable insight into his ruthless yet caring mindset.

[smudboy]

Pacifien wrote...
Mordin does seek penance for his role in modifying the genophage. He had a crisis of faith and looked into various religions. He sought an escape by opening up his clinic on Omega. The thing about Mordin is that he feels strongly that he did the wrong thing for the right reasons. He feels strongly that what he did needed to be done, but that his own soul was damned for being the one to do it.

Do you have a reference for that?  I'm quite sure he did the right thing for the right reasons, at least to his desription.

Also, psychopath is a word commonly misused by the general public. You want a classic DSM-IV example of a psychopath? Look at the Illusive Man. Jack does not fit the medical definition, but she fits the common definition. Also, she doesn't cry over the fact she got a boyfriend. She cries because she's scared of what that means. It's not crap, it's a very real human reaction.

And what's the common definition?  The DSM-IV doesn't have one for psyhopathy.  One definition involves temperament (genetics), and another is character based.

I recall some of the developers references: "She's a tough ass broad, swears like a truck driver."
The game narrative refers to Jack as "the meanest handful of violence and hate I've ever encountered.  Dangerous, crazy and very powerful." "Worse trouble you ever saw.  Mixed with some crazy and way too much biotic power."

We can put impulsive violence, an apathetic attitude and anger in a certain category for a psychopath (to name one.)  But her hatred and "craziness"?  She comes across as someone who obviously hates what happened to her, has no social graces and various social issues, and is generally untrustworthy toward others.  The main problem I have is indiscrimiate killing, which if there was reason or motivation and a particular method, we could put her in a serial-killer role; but she's not a disturbed monster in that sense.

As for Samara's relationship with Shepard, I'm glad romance didn't develop between the two because Shepard has enough people trying to jump into his pants. But I think Samara has the deepest line of friendship one can offer another when she tells (a paragon)Shepard that she will always come for him if he needed her.

It's not so much that Samara didn't give in.  In fact that's one of the reasons why it's the best romance.  There's so much ground to cover, let alone work with, that Shepard's few sentences (at least I feel) aren't enough for her to act romantically.  This isn't a simple woman with womanly desires; she's the most diverse, and potentially complicated of all the characters.

Similarily, Jack's tattoo's would've been a wonderful segway into characterization, but that never happened.  (Despite all the love and attention the designers gave Jack and them.)

But having read smudboy's views on the game, I feel trying to describe meaning to any of the squadmates in ME2 isn't going to be enough. There simply isn't enough dialogue between them to make any character development feel meaningful. It's not enough to have a loyalty mission and maybe 5 conversations with the squadmate to get a true feel of their character. Must have more.

Quantity doesn't necessarily mean we understand them more.  For example, we all understand Grunt, I'd say completely.  He wants to kill things.  It's in his blood.  He's also come to a social resolution of it, etc.  Basic stuff, and more would be just, well, of the same.

It's not an uncommon criticism of the game and it has merit. To a point.

But even if you felt character development was lacking, the one character who'd I think escapes such judgement would be Mordin. From the very first conversation you can have with him, he gives you considerable insight into his ruthless yet caring mindset.

In game, no problem.

Advertisements, big problem.

[NICKjnp]

AshiraShepard wrote...

I have no real articulate reaction to this, you can see the fanfics in my sig for how much I'd really like this so...

Wait... is this our little Ashira?  Now we can put a face to you... if it's you.

[philiposophy]

NICKjnp wrote...

AshiraShepard wrote...

I have no real articulate reaction to this, you can see the fanfics in my sig for how much I'd really like this so...

Wait... is this our little Ashira?  Now we can put a face to you... if it's you.

It's Boxxy from /b.

See here for more details: knowyourmeme.com/memes/boxxy

[NICKjnp]

Guess I'm not meme savy enough...

[lovgreno]

It was great that someone turned Shepard down for once. I totaly didn't see that coming to be honest.

[Pacifien]

(Re: Mordin)

smudboy wrote...
Do you have a reference for that?  I'm quite sure he did the right thing for the right reasons, at least to his desription.

Subjective to the player most like. Find a thread about the genophage.

(Re: Jack)

smudboy wrote...
And what's the common definition?  The DSM-IV doesn't have one for psyhopathy.  One definition involves temperament (genetics), and another is character based.

DSM-IV has a definition for Antisocial Personality Disorder. One can get into the semantics that psychopathy does not have its own category within the DSM-IV, and thus is not a recognized disorder in the realm of psychology. You'd have to tell psychologists about this, though, because psychopathy is still discussed among them.

The common definition is probably "anyone crazy violent." Like the word "tragedy," you use the word incorrectly enough times, it will redefine the definition.

Is Jack crazy? On the surface, one might describe her as such. In any case, you do not have an abused childhood and come out without some psychological scarring.

(Re: characterization via advertisement)

smudboy wrote...
In game, no problem.

Advertisements, big problem.

You want to argue the validity of a characterization based on an advertisement... I can't think of something you'd want less to evaluate the characteristics of anything. Otherwise Diet Dr. Pepper would taste more like regular Dr. Pepper. (And it doesn't, shut up nonbelievers!) Advertisements are made to be manipulative, coercive, and misleading if need be.

[smudboy]

Pacifien wrote...
Subjective to the player most like. Find a thread about the genophage.

(Re: Jack)

I try, (in so far as I know), to not make subjective comments.  You have, however.  I'm quite sure Mordin is not "feeling bad" or "remorseful" about what he did.  He's quite cogniscient and positively opinionated on it.  His assistant, however, is trying to undo that work.

DSM-IV has a definition for Antisocial Personality Disorder. One can get into the semantics that psychopathy does not have its own category within the DSM-IV, and thus is not a recognized disorder in the realm of psychology. You'd have to tell psychologists about this, though, because psychopathy is still discussed among them.

The common definition is probably "anyone crazy violent." Like the word "tragedy," you use the word incorrectly enough times, it will redefine the definition.

Is Jack crazy? On the surface, one might describe her as such. In any case, you do not have an abused childhood and come out without some psychological scarring.

(Re: characterization via advertisement)

If the APA doesn't have it listed in the DSM-IV, it ain't there.

You want to argue the validity of a characterization based on an advertisement... I can't think of something you'd want less to evaluate the characteristics of anything. Otherwise Diet Dr. Pepper would taste more like regular Dr. Pepper. (And it doesn't, shut up nonbelievers!) Advertisements are made to be manipulative, coercive, and misleading if need be.

Advertisement, developer comments and diaries...we are all led to believe things, but should not be part of the argument.  This content, however, did reflect the narrative (in the examples I've stated) from characters describing Jack.  Jack also behaves this way.  So it is an accurate form of evidence.  The main argument is the use of the word "psychopath", which we have no proper definition, and as such, cannot properly understand.

Modifié par smudboy, 19 juin 2010 - 07:29 .

[Nightwriter]

Of course. We all want the one who rejected us.

So sad... and classic.

[Pacifien]

smudboy wrote...
I try, (in so far as I know), to not make subjective comments.  You have, however.  I'm quite sure Mordin is not "feeling bad" or "remorseful" about what he did.  He's quite cogniscient and positively opinionated on it.  His assistant, however, is trying to undo that work.

That's subjective. You wanted a reason for why I felt he was remorseful for what he did? I saw it all in his words throughout his loyalty mission. We very likely saw the exact same dialogue, but came to two different conclusions. That's what being subjective is all about, and it's perfectly okay for a story to have such characters and moments.

(re: definition of psychopath)

smudboy wrote...
If the APA doesn't have it listed in the DSM-IV, it ain't there.

Yeah, 'cause when they do put it in the DSM-V, it will be a completely new personality disorder that hasn't existed until the future when the DSM-V comes out. Also, good to know that the APA will have cured Asperger's Syndrome when they remove that one from the next DSM.

Sure, you could have told the developers they should have more accurately labeled Jack as a Borderline Personality Disorder, but then most people wouldn't know what the hell they're talking about and a misused term for "crazy violent" probably seemed to work better.

smudboy wrote...
Advertisement, developer comments and diaries...we are all led to believe things, but should not be part of the argument.  This content, however, did reflect the narrative (in the examples I've stated) from characters describing Jack.  Jack also behaves this way.  So it is an accurate form of evidence.  The main argument is the use of the word "psychopath", which we have no proper definition, and as such, cannot properly understand.

People use words incorrectly all the time. If I say I'm going to xerox something, I'm not throwing the weight of a Fortune 500 company against it, but some people can probably figure out what I do actually plan on doing. I can be up in arms about the use of the word psychopath every single time, but I understand the meaning even when it's used incorrectly. And for a character like Jack who probably doesn't have a degree in psychology, I can see her wearing the label of psychopath proudly if it's thrown at her. Doesn't actually make her one.

Seriously, did you see the term used on Jack and expect her to be a proper psychopath only to discover to your disappointment that, no, she's some other form of psychologically scarred?

[smudboy]

Pacifien wrote...
That's subjective. You wanted a reason for why I felt he was remorseful for what he did? I saw it all in his words throughout his loyalty mission. We very likely saw the exact same dialogue, but came to two different conclusions. That's what being subjective is all about, and it's perfectly okay for a story to have such characters and moments.

Try again.  This time quote.

Yeah, 'cause when they do put it in the DSM-V, it will be a completely new personality disorder that hasn't existed until the future when the DSM-V comes out. Also, good to know that the APA will have cured Asperger's Syndrome when they remove that one from the next DSM.

Sure, you could have told the developers they should have more accurately labeled Jack as a Borderline Personality Disorder, but then most people wouldn't know what the hell they're talking about and a misused term for "crazy violent" probably seemed to work better.

God forbid the writers be accurate in characterization and science.

People use words incorrectly all the time. If I say I'm going to xerox something, I'm not throwing the weight of a Fortune 500 company against it, but some people can probably figure out what I do actually plan on doing. I can be up in arms about the use of the word psychopath every single time, but I understand the meaning even when it's used incorrectly. And for a character like Jack who probably doesn't have a degree in psychology, I can see her wearing the label of psychopath proudly if it's thrown at her. Doesn't actually make her one.

Seriously, did you see the term used on Jack and expect her to be a proper psychopath only to discover to your disappointment that, no, she's some other form of psychologically scarred?

Pretty much.  False advertising.  Unless it's Magical Shepard Communication.

It's like they didn't know what exactly to do with her.  Is she crazy?  Angry?  Pissed off?  Want a boyfriend?  Wah.

[smudboy]

Shepard: "What was it like working on the genophage modification project."

Mordin: "Best years of my life...Laughter. Ego. Passion. Galaxy's biggest problem, massive resources thrown at us. Got anything we wanted."

[Jackal904]

smudboy wrote...

I don't get how she's labeled as a psychopath, but then goes on a quest to discover herself, then starts crying.  I could buy some kind of bipolar disorder along with social dysfunction, but not psychopathy.  Just doesn't fit.  Trying to act tough doesn't make one a psychopath.

Well at least we agree on something. They probably labeled her as a psychopath because it sounds a lot more interesting than sociopath.

[smudboy]

Shepard: "Sounds like you were trying to deal with your guilty conscience.  The doctor who killed millions."
Mordin: "Modified genophage project great in scope.  Scientifically brilliant.  But ethically difficult.  Krogan reaction visceral, tragic."
Mordin: "Not guilty, but responsible.  Trained as doctor.  Genophage affected fertility.  Doesn't kill."

He continues the conversation on his positive spiritual and religious beliefs.  He then ends the conversation about the need for the genophage to save the galaxy.  That the choice wasn't easy.  That he wishes he wasn't as intelligent, and that it had to be him, else someone else would've gotten it wrong: but this is a fools wish.

Oh, and he's a Salarian.  Pretty good on the dealing with emotional issues bit.

[NICKjnp]

Jackal904 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I don't get how she's labeled as a psychopath, but then goes on a quest to discover herself, then starts crying.  I could buy some kind of bipolar disorder along with social dysfunction, but not psychopathy.  Just doesn't fit.  Trying to act tough doesn't make one a psychopath.

Well at least we agree on something. They probably labeled her as a psychopath because it sounds a lot more interesting than sociopath.

The thing is... she isn't a sociopath or a psychopath.  She does have feelings and morals... she just doesn't care.  She can tell the diference between right and wrong.

[Pacifien]

smudboy wrote...
God forbid the writers be accurate in characterization and science.

It must burn your very soul when you hear explosions in space.

EDI: That is a joke.

Modifié par Pacifien, 19 juin 2010 - 11:55 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

I'm lost as to who disagrees with who here