115 réponses à ce sujet

[nov_pl]

Well, first I didn't like Mordin's approach to Genophage, but when he said that they had to work really hard to keep balance between safe Universe and Krogans persistence I understand. It was necessary to stop Krogans breeding, but at the same time keep the race alive.



It makes me think that World is lucky that Chinese aren't agressive as Krogans (no offence)

[V4nBl00d]

I guess the war against the reapers in ME 3 will be rather easy to win if you were always paragon, having council, rachni and krogan on your side and stuff. As renegade it's more or less just overwhelmed humans against the reapers. Plus there's illusive man whose eyes either want to tell you 'smoking can give you eye-cancer too' or 'hey shep, I'm a reaper'.


Btw. atomic bombs in japan to end ww2 have nothing to do with the genophage. Killing thousands of innocent cilvilians to scare a government to stop a war is not the same as very drastic birthcontrol (might not be the appropriate description but I guess you know what I mean).
At least that's my opinion

Modifié par V4nBl00d, 27 avril 2010 - 02:53 .

[Rocket Weazle]

I liked Mordin's logic, but didn't Wrex say Krogan die in stillbirth? Technically the genophage was genocide, It was an answer to the problem that was caused by the Rachni, the turians, and the salarians, but since the Rachni were only evil because of the Reapers, I'll just blame them for it all.

[onelifecrisis]

I had difficulty with this as well. Mordin has a good response to Shepard saying that the Krogan recovery is good news: he says Shepard is assuming a human reaction. The Krogan are not human. In all my encounters with them I don't think I ever met one that didn't see violence as the only acceptable way of life. Even the Krogan "scientist" on Tuchanka wears heavy armour in his lab, and talks about blowing stuff up.

IRL, any moral code is a set of social and behavioural "rules" that allow humans to live together in a mutually beneficial way. Since Krogan are so different from humans, it seems logical that what is moral for them is not the same as what is moral for us.

The problem for me is that the game suggests several times that the Krogan way of life (violence above all else) is a result of social conditioning, rather than being something that is genetically hardcoded into the Krogan species. The shaman, for example, has to go through harsh daily rituals to maintain his mindset. This, for me, is what confuses the issue, because if you take away that social conditioning then what you're arguably left with is yet another species that is basically human*, which would mean that human morals do apply after all. It's a tricky one.

* The Salarians are just nerdy humans.
   The Turians are anal humans.
   The Drell are spiritual humans.
   The Quarians are humans in suits.
   And the Asari are eternally-young sexy female humans with whom you can have sex that is literally mind-blowing.
   The Krogan are the only species (apart from the Hanar) who, to my mind, are perhaps genuinely different from humans... but as I said, it's not clear whether that's just down to some extreme social conditioning.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 27 avril 2010 - 03:37 .

[Masticetobbacco]

nov_pl wrote...

Well, first I didn't like Mordin's approach to Genophage, but when he said that they had to work really hard to keep balance between safe Universe and Krogans persistence I understand. It was necessary to stop Krogans breeding, but at the same time keep the race alive.

It makes me think that World is lucky that Chinese aren't agressive as Krogans (no offence)

asian invasion baby. We'll zerg rush the entire world

[Masticetobbacco]

adam_grif wrote...

Genophage is fine. It's just forced birth control, and the only alternative is blowing them up completely.

would you like it if someone were to cut your di.ck off? Under the justification that you have a rare genetic disease, and that hindering your ability to reproduce would benefit the entire human species?

[Bigdoser]

The interesting thing is that in me1 wrex almost shot you because there might of been a genophage cure also when i saw the dead krogan mother it was raising alot of questions. Then when the krogan said you have not seen the pile of dead children! i was thinking is the genophage really that bad?

[Nu-Nu]

Bigdoser wrote...

The interesting thing is that in me1 wrex almost shot you because there might of been a genophage cure also when i saw the dead krogan mother it was raising alot of questions. Then when the krogan said you have not seen the pile of dead children! i was thinking is the genophage really that bad?

They were stillborn children, which is still very heart-breaking to the mothers.  It's one thing to stop them getting pregnant, it's another thing to make it so the body carries the child and then abort it.

[Japkap79]

Think it depends on the options in ME1, if u have all your alien companions at the end and 1 less alliance soldier u might be doing the world a favor in making a cure for the genophage, the ethical thing to do would be to just remove the genophage due to it being a constructed desease rather then a natural selection thing.

The hard choice is what is best for the galaxy is it killing the krogans or the lesser evil of making them nearly steril, not all of the krogan females where unable to get pregnant, there where cases where there offspring ended up being still born and some did survive as well.

Like Mordin said at the time it was the right thing to do because the krogan where increasingly aggressive and there species growth was really high, they had to take action either kill the krogans or find a way to stop there breeding (own words here cant recall what mordin said about it but i understand his options either kill the krogan with a virus or render them steril or close to it).

If i had a choice in ME1 i would have saved the information at the facility, and would have given it to wrex if i could.

Modifié par Japkap79, 27 avril 2010 - 05:53 .

[knightnblu]

Silentbob 88808 – Thank you for the kind words and I enjoyed the discussion as well.

[cronshaw8]

Polka14 wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

V4nBl00d wrote...

In my opinion, the genophage was right, or at least preferable to total extinction. Cure the genophage in ME 2 has never been an option to me because, let's be honest, 99% of all Krogans are stupid ****** berserks and from these 99%, 99% are less more than final repositories for bullets. I think they would be going the right way with Wrex as a leader (if you let him live on Virmire, which I didn't) but even if he succeeded, it would take much more time to profe that the krogans are ready to be released.

was nuking the japanese also the right descision?

Off-topic. Irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant at all. The logic the Salarians use to justify the genophage (kill many to avoid killing all or a lot more) is the same logic Harry Truman used. If you agree with the genophage, you should agree nuking Japan was right too. And actualy nuking Japan was less harsh than what the Salarians did to the Krogan.

Modifié par cronshaw8, 27 avril 2010 - 08:48 .

[cronshaw8]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I
* The Salarians are just nerdy humans.
   The Turians are anal humans.
   The Drell are spiritual humans.
   The Quarians are humans in suits.
   And the Asari are eternally-young sexy female humans with whom you can have sex that is literally mind-blowing.
   The Krogan are the only species (apart from the Hanar) who, to my mind, are perhaps genuinely different from humans... but as I said, it's not clear whether that's just down to some extreme social conditioning.

The Krogan are just angry humans

[onelifecrisis]

cronshaw8 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

I
* The Salarians are just nerdy humans.
   The Turians are anal humans.
   The Drell are spiritual humans.
   The Quarians are humans in suits.
   And the Asari are eternally-young sexy female humans with whom you can have sex that is literally mind-blowing.
   The Krogan are the only species (apart from the Hanar) who, to my mind, are perhaps genuinely different from humans... but as I said, it's not clear whether that's just down to some extreme social conditioning.

The Krogan are just angry humans

Anger is an emotion. It is transient - at least in humans. The traits I associated with the other races are not. I know you're just being flippant, but I was trying to make a serious point...

[Rocket Weazle]

cronshaw8 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

I
* The Salarians are just nerdy humans.
   The Turians are anal humans.
   The Drell are spiritual humans.
   The Quarians are humans in suits.
   And the Asari are eternally-young sexy female humans with whom you can have sex that is literally mind-blowing.
   The Krogan are the only species (apart from the Hanar) who, to my mind, are perhaps genuinely different from humans... but as I said, it's not clear whether that's just down to some extreme social conditioning.

The Krogan are just angry humans

Krogan are men with 2x the testosterone.

[abstractwhiz]

Nu-Nu wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

The interesting thing is that in me1 wrex almost shot you because there might of been a genophage cure also when i saw the dead krogan mother it was raising alot of questions. Then when the krogan said you have not seen the pile of dead children! i was thinking is the genophage really that bad?

They were stillborn children, which is still very heart-breaking to the mothers.  It's one thing to stop them getting pregnant, it's another thing to make it so the body carries the child and then abort it.

The Krogan most likely don't carry the child in their bodies, they lay eggs. Okeer says something like "Let a thousand die in every clutch", which bears this out. The genophaged children never develop a nervous system, so they wind up stillborn. Presumably the Krogan take them out of their eggs and swear eternal vengeance at the galaxy again. 

Still, it would have been less psychologically devastating to the Krogan if the genophage had been a little less visible. Even if they had made it so that Krogan females laid fewer eggs, or at fewer intervals, the Krogan reaction might have been a little less visceral. I find it rather strange that Salarians, of all people, would create a plague like this. No one else in the galaxy is as obsessed with surgical precision and long-term optimality as them. 

Sadly, the Krogan seem to think that having thousands of kids is totally normal, and this is the only ability that the genophage took away from them. Given the alternatives (genocide by the Turians / Krogan conquest of the galaxy), this was definitely the better option. Possibly the best option, because what else is going to permanently stop a krogan horde? Without the genophage, either you kill them, or they kill you. Before the genophage, anything like Wrex's plan would have been laughed out the door. Even if you reduced the krogan to a few thousand individuals (which would be serious genocide in itself), you'd just have another war in a few generations.

Mordin is right about the root of the problem - it comes down to the Salarians uplifting the Krogan before they could fix their social and cultural problems. They already nuked themselves into savagery once, back when humans were still in the Bronze Age. Why the hell would you expect them to be any wiser while they remained in this savage state?

Had there been no such uplift, you'd have Krogans making contact with the Citadel in a few thousand years, and being far more like this guy. They'd still be incredibly devastating combatants, but at least now there wouldn't be a horde. Heck, the Reapers might even have wanted to give them special attention next time around. ("Krogan, viable possibility. Extensive potential for badassery." ) 

[RIP Holy Wars]

I hope this isn't a thread jacking, but, if there was no Genophage, do you think the Krogan would have become powerful enough to combat the Reapers? Imagine their population... some amount of Trillions or higher.

[inversevideo]

In ME1 I was against the genophage, too extreme.
It seemed like the Council sanctioned genocide against the Racni, then did the same to the Krogan, and it made me wonder if they would do the same to Humanity, if they thought they had a reason/excuse?

But I've since come to the conclusion that the genophage was the right call.
The Krogan had several planets ceded to them, for 'thanks' in stopping the Rachni, and they soon overpopulated them all, and used up the resources, forcing them to expand, violently.

Krogan mentality is geared to war and domination, it is their 'nature'.
The Krogan ability to breed so many so quickly, far exceeds the number of planets that they have available, which always leads them to war; and the need to conquer new territories to expand. If the Krogan took over all habitable planets, in the galaxy, they would soon go to war with each other, as they did on Tuchanka. War is the only 'natural limit' that can quell Krogan population growth.

The only way to coexist with the Krogan, is to limit their numbers, adjust the birth rate.
The genophage does just that. The Krogan that survive birth are healthy, and strong.

Okeer may have been ruthless, but perhaps he had the right idea.
Create superior Krogan, and rather than breed large numbers, breed smaller numbers, but produce superior beings.

Modifié par inversevideo, 27 avril 2010 - 10:30 .

[Polka14]

cronshaw8 wrote...

Polka14 wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

V4nBl00d wrote...

In my opinion, the genophage was right, or at least preferable to total extinction. Cure the genophage in ME 2 has never been an option to me because, let's be honest, 99% of all Krogans are stupid ****** berserks and from these 99%, 99% are less more than final repositories for bullets. I think they would be going the right way with Wrex as a leader (if you let him live on Virmire, which I didn't) but even if he succeeded, it would take much more time to profe that the krogans are ready to be released.

was nuking the japanese also the right descision?

Off-topic. Irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant at all. The logic the Salarians use to justify the genophage (kill many to avoid killing all or a lot more) is the same logic Harry Truman used. If you agree with the genophage, you should agree nuking Japan was right too. And actualy nuking Japan was less harsh than what the Salarians did to the Krogan.

It is not exactly the same scenario. In WWII, The Japanese Empire was completely defeated at land and Sea. However they were unlikely to surrender unless the nukes were used. In Mass Effect, the Krogan could not be completely defeated until the Genophage was used. Both used to save lives but one to end a war and another to win a war. Anyway, both were reasonable.

[inversevideo]

RIP Holy Wars wrote...

I hope this isn't a thread jacking, but, if there was no Genophage, do you think the Krogan would have become powerful enough to combat the Reapers? Imagine their population... some amount of Trillions or higher.

Honestly? No.

The Protheans dominated the galaxy at their height of power.
They were on the cusp of unlocking the secrets of Mass Relay technology, and had built their own test-relay, 'The Conduit', which, while only woking in one direction, was still able to make a single jump, from Illos, within the Terminus Systems, to the Citadel.

The Krogan, by comparison, might be good at fighting on the ground, but against an enemy that can dominate space, control the very relays you would depend on  to move personnel and materiel, and bombard your ground forces from orbit, they would only end up being slaughtered by the Reapers, and convverted to husks.

Now there is an intriguing thought! A Krogan Husk.  And Okeer gave many 'tank bred'  to the Collectors.
What a 'revoltin' development that could turn out to be!

[Spectre_907]

I see no ethical concerns in releasing the genophage or the modified genophage, only necessity. But in destroying or preserving Maelon's research, there are ethical concerns. In uplifting the krogan: The reapers had indoctrinated the rachni, causing the Rachni Wars. There was no way to negotiate a peace or surrender. The krogan were the only species capable of turning the tide in favor of the citadel races. When you are faced with the threat of extinction from something you never wrought, survival must override ethical standpoints.

As for the original and modified genophage, same thing. Overlord Kredak refuses to peacefully cooperate with the other citadel races threatening galactic stability, genophage was the only option to ensure stability. Krogan biological evolution to the genophage without cultural stability also a threat, modified genophage was the only option. Again, it is simply a matter of survival.

Now for Maelon's research: You have two possible states of the krogan government depending on the outcome on Virmire. Wreav is a traditionalist and wishes to continue the warlike nature of krogan culture. Wrex is less of a traditionalist, seeking to curb some of the warlike tendencies as he sees them as a threat. Destroying Maelon's research if Wrex is clan leader of Urdnot would be unethical. Preserving Maelon's research if Wreav is clan leader would be unethical.

[Spartas Husky]

Rocket Weazle wrote...

I liked Mordin's logic, but didn't Wrex say Krogan die in stillbirth? Technically the genophage was genocide, It was an answer to the problem that was caused by the Rachni, the turians, and the salarians, but since the Rachni were only evil because of the Reapers, I'll just blame them for it all.

That is something some characters say one thing, and others another.

1st Wrex says they die in stillbirth, which for any parent to see child after child even if is a friend's child come out nearly fully grown...but come out dead...not only enrages somebody but I can't even begin to imagine the psycological trauma that does to a male. Speaking bluntly, that hurts a male mind, not being able to protect its child.

And lets not even talk to what it would do to the female.

2nd Mordin says other thing, while true, still very vague on whether pregnancy is just diminished or if children die after being concieved.

3th, that Krogan speaker for clal weyrloc also says the same as wrex, the "mountains of children dead"



Bluntly but, is like having an entire forest engulfed by flames, and there is no way to stop it, so you drop a vacum bomb to sofocate the fire and destroy more acres around it to prevent sudden fires from appearing.

It was never right, Salarians made a mistake by giving Krogans tech they weren't ready for, and the only way to prevent Krogans from being wiped out, is to kill enough of them so they dont attract enough attention to themselves.

Very weird dilema to say the least.

nevertheless...we still have no idea whether Children DO DIE, after being conceived as Wrex and Weyrloc speaker claim, or if prenancy rates just drop dramatically as Mordin states.....I dont really know who to believe, wrex would not lie...but I dont think mordinw oudl either......very confusing.

[Breakdown Boy]

The Krogan are aggressive relative to their Warlords, if they are wize, they won't take on species that are much smarter than they are. They wanted to cause crap with their 'we will walk over the dead of our enemies'. So the smarter and more disciplined Salarians and Turians hit them with the Genophage rather than killing them off with heavy orbital attacks.



Genophage was only logical option as the Krogan nature is to war, add to that the high birth rate and yoy would have an endless war which the council races would not win without either destroying the Krogan completely or using something similair to the Genophage.



Genphage was right call, forces the Krogan to adapt their culture and curb their brutality....or not.

[JnEricsonx]

onelifecrisis wrote...

I had difficulty with this as well. Mordin has a good response to Shepard saying that the Krogan recovery is good news: he says Shepard is assuming a human reaction. The Krogan are not human. In all my encounters with them I don't think I ever met one that didn't see violence as the only acceptable way of life. Even the Krogan "scientist" on Tuchanka wears heavy armour in his lab, and talks about blowing stuff up.

IRL, any moral code is a set of social and behavioural "rules" that allow humans to live together in a mutually beneficial way. Since Krogan are so different from humans, it seems logical that what is moral for them is not the same as what is moral for us.

The problem for me is that the game suggests several times that the Krogan way of life (violence above all else) is a result of social conditioning, rather than being something that is genetically hardcoded into the Krogan species. The shaman, for example, has to go through harsh daily rituals to maintain his mindset. This, for me, is what confuses the issue, because if you take away that social conditioning then what you're arguably left with is yet another species that is basically human*, which would mean that human morals do apply after all. It's a tricky one.

* The Salarians are just nerdy humans.
   The Turians are anal humans.
   The Drell are spiritual humans.
   The Quarians are humans in suits.
   And the Asari are eternally-young sexy female humans with whom you can have sex that is literally mind-blowing.
   The Krogan are the only species (apart from the Hanar) who, to my mind, are perhaps genuinely different from humans... but as I said, it's not clear whether that's just down to some extreme social conditioning.

Again, just remember what Kaidan said in ME 1:  "Alien's aren't superior, they're jerks and saints just like the rest of us."  Your comparison, say, Salarians are "nerdy humans" is one way to look at it, for instance.  There has to be some baseline comparison.