115 réponses à ce sujet

[Big I]

Spartas Husky wrote...

nevertheless...we still have no idea whether Children DO DIE, after being conceived as Wrex and Weyrloc speaker claim, or if prenancy rates just drop dramatically as Mordin states

It's possible the genophage does both, decreasing the chances that a female Krogan would conceive and also decreasing the chances she can carry to term. Two other quotes to bear in mind are from Okeer, when he talks about Krogans being born in clutches ("let a thousand die in a clutch!), and Mordin saying that the Genophage works by altering hormone levels.

Regarding the Krogan uplift, I don't have a problem that it was done, merely with how it was implemented. The drell are an example of an uplift that worked well in all respects, with the single exception of Kepler's Syndrome. Even then the hanar are seeking to correct that.

The Council didn't stop to think about long term Krogan development or galactic integration when they uplifted them. They saw them only as tools in their war against the Rachni. That's why it all went bad; they took a dark age culture and instead of trying to show them the value of art, science, and commerce they militarised them and created a social structure that rewarded aggression , conquest, and uncontrolled population growth and industrialisation.

It's a mistake they repeated with the Alliance (taking an aggresive/expansionistic society, locking them out of key decision making, but still using them as a tool of foreign policy in settling the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge).

Furthermore, Mordin's comments abouth the ethicality of uplifting the Krogan is based upon the assumption that the Krogan would have been able to develop without outside help (his idea that the Krogan should have been left to develop on their own).

The Krogan were in the middle of a 1000 year Dark Age, living on a nuked out planet, and were evolving towards greater aggression and lethality (the Codex entry for Blood Rage say that it only became ubiquitous in Krogan after they nuked themselves). Under his logic, the drell should have been left to die on Rachana in order to learn the value of ecological preservation.

Moreover, the idea that cultures shouldn't interact if there is a technological disparity is contrary to the entire idea of Citadel Space. When a new species, such as the elcor or the raloi, discover the relays and make First Contact, it is highly unlikely that their technology or economy will be of comparable complexity or sopistication to the Council species with their millenia of inter-solar development and colonisation.

The philosophy of the Council is that these new species learn from and integrate with existing Citadel species. Why should the ability to manipulate mass effect fields and use the relays be the arbitrary benchmark for interaction with the galaxy?

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 17 mai 2010 - 09:34 .

[GodWood]

Saving the cure is just asking for trouble.

[Urazz]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

It's a mistake they repeated with the Alliance (taking an aggresive/expansionistic society, locking them out of key decision making, but still using them as a tool of foreign policy in settling the Attican Traverse and the Skyllian Verge).

I wouldn't say the alliance is aggressive as the Krogan.  Mostly, I would say expansionistic/fast growing.  Thing is that the council races really weren't more advanced than humanity so humanity just saw everyone else at their level (or lower in some humans' opinions) and so saw no reason why they should be held back like the council did.

Now if the other races were more advanced than humanity then they definately would've held back on their expansion for a bit of time I think (at least until they can get some of their tech) but as it is since they have the same level of tech as humans, there was no reason the alliance/humanity saw to hold back.  Stuff like how teh council handled the rachni and krogans probably also didn't help the perception the alliance/humanity had of the council.

Now the genophage, I think was the right decision but the point is that the Krogan should've never been uplifted like that quickly in the first place.  The council used them as a weapon of war and it should be no suprise that it would come back to bite them in the ass.

Curing the genophage right now isn't the right thing to do but it could be done later on when the krogan mature as a species and learn to control their birth rates (i.e. learn about birth control/condoms  ).  So saving the cure data for later does seem like a good thing I think.

Modifié par Urazz, 17 mai 2010 - 10:09 .

[Ladi]

The genophage is a twisted solution to a scenario entirely of the Council races' own creation. They uplifted the Krogan before they were ready so that they would have agressive tools/shields to use against the Rachni. When they realised the potential danger of what they had created, they neutered the entire race.

The ethics here is asking whether or not it is right to put down a wild animal you brought from its natural environment after it has performed the task you needed it for.

The second genophage is also twisted. Rather than develop it and use it if once again it became apparent that the Krogan needed to be contained, they instead released it pre-emptively, opting to use it as a first, rather than last, resort. I do not believe that whatever simulations match up to real data.

[Zulu_DFA]

If I were a Krogan spectre of a Krogan supreamcist paramilitary organization operative I'd probably saved the cure.

As it is, I'm inclined to maintain the status quo. Even after I liked some Krogan individuals in ME2 (Thax's representaive and Patriarch).

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If I were a Krogan spectre of a Krogan supreamcist paramilitary organization operative I'd probably saved the cure.

As it is, I'm inclined to maintain the status quo. Even after I liked some Krogan individuals in ME2 (Thax's representaive and Patriarch).

Hear ye!

[Big I]

I think curing the Genophage is right for two reasons:



1) It's destroying Krogan culture and should never have been used.



2) It can be used to support Urdnot. I've only played through with Wrex as clan leader, and supporting his efforts to reform Tuchanka are only a good thing, but even if dealing with Wreav I imagine supporting a unified Krogan government would be a good thing.

[Urazz]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I think curing the Genophage is right for two reasons:

1) It's destroying Krogan culture and should never have been used.

2) It can be used to support Urdnot. I've only played through with Wrex as clan leader, and supporting his efforts to reform Tuchanka are only a good thing, but even if dealing with Wreav I imagine supporting a unified Krogan government would be a good thing.

Actually the Krogan culture isn't being destroyed because of the Genophage, that was the culture they had 'before' the genophage.  The Krogan arent' in danger of extinction but like Wrex said, they aren't getting any stronger either.  As it is the Krogan are basically not a threat to anyone since they have no unified frong like the other races.

The Krogan culture is starting to change though with Wrex's attempt to unite the clans and they'll be more of a threat.  Considering how the council is, it wouldn't suprise me if the council gets nervous about them.

Modifié par Urazz, 17 mai 2010 - 01:09 .

[Ladi]

Oh, here's a somewhat fresh angle on the Genophage - it's role in marginalising women.

We know that in the past there were female Krogan warlords who were every bit as competent as the males. However, due to the genophage, female Krogan have had to split off and form their own clans to protect their offspring.

You could make a case for the fact that the Krogan are still so violent is due to the segregation of their men and women - they no longer have the comparatively nurturing influence of their females to guide policy - which is again entirely the fault of the Council races.

[Spectre_907]

RIP Holy Wars wrote...

The Krogan, by comparison, might be good at fighting on the ground, but against an enemy that can dominate space, control the very relays you would depend on  to move personnel and materiel, and bombard your ground forces from orbit, they would only end up being slaughtered by the Reapers, and convverted to husks.

The krogan were more than capable of fighting in space. Just look at their fight with the turian fleets during the Krogan Rebellions.

[smecky-kitteh]

"better to have it and not need it"

[Spectre_907]

Ladi wrote...

The genophage is a twisted solution to a scenario entirely of the Council races' own creation. They uplifted the Krogan before they were ready so that they would have agressive tools/shields to use against the Rachni. When they realised the potential danger of what they had created, they neutered the entire race.
The ethics here is asking whether or not it is right to put down a wild animal you brought from its natural environment after it has performed the task you needed it for.
The second genophage is also twisted. Rather than develop it and use it if once again it became apparent that the Krogan needed to be contained, they instead released it pre-emptively, opting to use it as a first, rather than last, resort. I do not believe that whatever simulations match up to real data.

If that wild animal was the key to saving your own people from an alien aggressor commited to wiping you out, are you willing to let your own people die simply to avoid fixing the consequences you wrought from using that wild animal against the aliens later? The genophage had to be done. If they had not uplifted the krogan, the rachni would have exterminated the citadel races. Had the genophage not been released, the krogan would have destroyed the citadel races, opened new relays, and went to war with any other sapient races for their planets. Releasing the genophage if the krogan were a peaceful race would be wrong, but in war with an enemy refusing to cooperate, there is no ethical concern.

What I find twisted and unethical is destroying Maelon's reseach if Wrex is clan leader of Urdnot or preserving it if Wreav is clan leader.

[Spartas Husky]

Personally, the genopage wont need to be reapplied when more like Wrex start appearing.



Their resiliency against their native harsh environment is both a gift and a curse, but unlike the rachni hive mind and ability to say "there aren't enough resources we need to stop having so many kids"



Krogans are close, but still not there to have the same mindset.

[Madman123456]

If possible, making tuchanka a "no fly zone" would be better. Kill every Krogan on every Planet other then Tuchanka if they aren't willing to cooperate, then seal off tuchanka.

With the Genophage, every Krogan has this Picture in his Head of his Species being dying. No Krogan really cares.

Without the Genophage correcting for the high Birthrate in non-hostile Environments and on their Homeworld, the Krogan could work out their Differences themselves, without the constant reminder that the Krogan Population on tuchanka will eventually go extinct.

[Pacifien]

My Shepard tends to pick and choose his battles, and right now the Reapers are his main focus. The genophage was a decision the Council made over a thousand years ago, a decision that they still feel the affects of to this day. The Rachni were from a war the Council fought over two thousand years ago. While my Shepard might develop an opinion on either, they are not battles he has any interest in fighting at the moment. Maybe never will.

However, you do have to choose one or the other. I told Mordin to keep the genophage data, because hoarding data is just something I tend to do. For the mission where you have to rescue the Cerberus operative and regain his data, I neither gave it to the Alliance or Cerberus. Guess Shepard is a bit of a renegade in that respect, always keeping potentially useful data in case it proves valuable in the future. Maybe should become an information broker.

[Big I]

Spectre_907 wrote...
The genophage had to be done. If they had not uplifted the krogan, the rachni would have exterminated the citadel races. Had the genophage not been released, the krogan would have destroyed the citadel races, opened new relays, and went to war with any other sapient races for their planets.

There is no link between the uplift and the genophage, except as a result of Council mistakes. The drell show that it is possible to uplift a species without massive social harms, and Wrex's leadership shows that the anti-social aspects of krogan culture are largely a result of social conditioning, which he is combating.

The reason the krogan uplift failed was because the Council races refused to interact with the krogan as anything other than expendable shock troops.

Also, based on Mordin's conversations, the genophage was deployed not neccessarily to win the Rebellions, but to stop them from returning to war a generation down the track. If this can be believed, the turians had largely won the war before the deployment, but then opted to unleash a sterility plague on a defeated enemy.

Ladi wrote...
Oh, here's a somewhat fresh angle on the
Genophage - it's role in marginalising women.
We know that in the
past there were female Krogan warlords who were every bit as competent
as the males. However, due to the genophage, female Krogan have had to
split off and form their own clans to protect their offspring.
You
could make a case for the fact that the Krogan are still so violent is
due to the segregation of their men and women - they no longer have the
comparatively nurturing influence of their females to guide policy -
which is again entirely the fault of the Council races.

I'm not sure that segregation is equivalent with marginalisation. Females are still important in krogan society. Wrex says that his ability to do anything is contingent upon the female Urdnot clan leader's support. The greater harm is probably that a female krogan's worth is determined primarily by her ability to bear children, and the psychological harms associated with losing so many children to still-birth.

Also, assuming that krogan females are "nurturing" in the same way that humans are is likely incorrect. As Mordin says in his loyalty mission, it assumes a human emotional response.

[scorptatious]

I can definetely see both sides of the issue, if the Krogan population was left unchecked, the galaxy would be in huge trouble. Despite that, I still support a cure for the genophage. Besides, I trust Wrex to properly lead his people. After all he is one of the few Krogan who wanted his people to focus on rebuilding thier society rather than just go kill stuff for credits.

[Spartas Husky]

scorptatious wrote...

I can definetely see both sides of the issue, if the Krogan population was left unchecked, the galaxy would be in huge trouble. Despite that, I still support a cure for the genophage. Besides, I trust Wrex to properly lead his people. After all he is one of the few Krogan who wanted his people to focus on rebuilding thier society rather than just go kill stuff for credits.

Unfortunately, there are other clans in the planet, he is very very small in comparison, so. He is still far from being effective. I duno.

[scorptatious]

Spartas Husky wrote...

scorptatious wrote...

I can definetely see both sides of the issue, if the Krogan population was left unchecked, the galaxy would be in huge trouble. Despite that, I still support a cure for the genophage. Besides, I trust Wrex to properly lead his people. After all he is one of the few Krogan who wanted his people to focus on rebuilding thier society rather than just go kill stuff for credits.

Unfortunately, there are other clans in the planet, he is very very small in comparison, so. He is still far from being effective. I duno.

I don't know, he did kill a thresher maw in his rite and he has Grunt in his clan, so Clan Urdnot should be well off.

Although my Grunt died in my main career so that could cause some problems in terms of Wrex holding his leadership...

[Spartas Husky]

scorptatious wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

scorptatious wrote...

I can definetely see both sides of the issue, if the Krogan population was left unchecked, the galaxy would be in huge trouble. Despite that, I still support a cure for the genophage. Besides, I trust Wrex to properly lead his people. After all he is one of the few Krogan who wanted his people to focus on rebuilding thier society rather than just go kill stuff for credits.

Unfortunately, there are other clans in the planet, he is very very small in comparison, so. He is still far from being effective. I duno.

I don't know, he did kill a thresher maw in his rite and he has Grunt in his clan, so Clan Urdnot should be well off.

Although my Grunt died in my main career so that could cause some problems in terms of Wrex holding his leadership...

SImple, load before collector mission and dont let grunt die... there u go .

Yes he killed a thresher maw, and grunt did as well. But is a planet. There are many planets, and multiple continents, we still dont know numbers of his clan, or others, for all we know, he could be the ant king, in a planet filled with dragons lol

[Spectre_907]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...
The genophage had to be done. If they had not uplifted the krogan, the rachni would have exterminated the citadel races. Had the genophage not been released, the krogan would have destroyed the citadel races, opened new relays, and went to war with any other sapient races for their planets.

There is no link between the uplift and the genophage, except as a result of Council mistakes. The drell show that it is possible to uplift a species without massive social harms, and Wrex's leadership shows that the anti-social aspects of krogan culture are largely a result of social conditioning, which he is combating.

The reason the krogan uplift failed was because the Council races refused to interact with the krogan as anything other than expendable shock troops.

Also, based on Mordin's conversations, the genophage was deployed not neccessarily to win the Rebellions, but to stop them from returning to war a generation down the track. If this can be believed, the turians had largely won the war before the deployment, but then opted to unleash a sterility plague on a defeated enemy.

I wasn't suggesting a link between the genophage and the krogan being uplifted. I was claiming that the Rachni Wars and the Krogan Rebellions could only be resolved with the krogan uplifting and with the genophage, respectively. I wrote of the consequences of not uplifting the krogan and then suddenly changed to the genophage. I explained it a little better in my other post.

I am aware that the salarians created the genophage as a deterrent. I agree with the turian perspective of releasing it. The codex is vague about the military strength of the turians and krogan back then or any specific outcomes or progress (battles won, strategic advantages, etc.) of both species but from what I gather from the codex, they were evenly matched. Even if they were not, and the krogan were defeated by the time the genophage was created, the krogan would not surrender and continued war without the bioweapon would ultimately result in stalemate, later turning in favor of the krogan as they can simply create more reinforcements that the turians can not. The turians can win all the battles they want but a relentless and committed enemy will ultimately lead to defeat of the turians.

I do not think the salarians are to blame for uplifting the krogan but they are obviously responsible. The council did not only interact with the krogan as shock troops against the rachni. The krogan were praised for defeating the rachni and given colonies. They may have been given an embassy as well according to the wiki article on the Rebellions (but it only says Kredak was an Overlord in the codex). If anything I would blame them for not foreseeing that non-hostile worlds would allow for increased population. The krogan were already seizing colonies and annexing worlds by force before the Rebellions were officially began.

I agree that the drell uplifting showed that a peaceful coexistence could occur but we're talking about nearly 2000 years in between such events. Different circumstances. The hanar were not uplifting them because their existence was in jeopardy by an alien aggressor.

I also agree that Wrex's leadership shows hostile krogan nature due more to social conditioning. The main reason why I believe curing the genophage if he is clan leader of Urdnot is the ethical thing to do.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 18 mai 2010 - 03:32 .

[GreenDragon37]

Ladi wrote...
What I find twisted and unethical is destroying Maelon's reseach if Wrex is clan leader of Urdnot or preserving it if Wreav is clan leader.

The problem is that the Wrex's plans would be thrown out the window if the cure was released now. There would be no need for them and he would be overhrown and the Krogan Empire would be reborn.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 22 mai 2010 - 02:11 .

[C9316]

was actually gonna start a topic about this today but anyway judging the situation that it was made to quell I think at that point in time it was neccessary to have a control agent of Krogan birthrates. However mordin and other scientists will say that the genophage doesn't kill just effects fertility rates this is not true if this was the case then why is there a small number of fertile females? shouldn't all females be fertile if it just effects birth rates also if it didn't kill why do so many still births occur? and why did they decide 1 in 1000? why not 10 in 1000 but nevertheless it was neccessary at the time but then a modified genophage really? hadn't the Krogan suffered enough from the first plauge? so imo its really the modified one that is unethical and just plain unforgivable

[V4nBl00d]

I just overheard two Krogans talking on Tuchanka, one of them thinks one of the children at the women's camp is his son, i guess you all know those guys. At the end they say something like: 'we need to protect the women and children, damn genophage.' I've never heard this before, maibe they say it only if Wrex is the leader. It's actually the first time I met a normal Krogan who was actually fighting to protect something, figthing for a noble goal.

To me, this is a proof that the Krogan's way of thinking is evolving and that the genophage won't be necessary in the future. Not only the Krogan 'Masterminds' (kinda funny calling a Krogan that) have realised that there are more important things in life than randomly fighting.



But right now I don't think curing the genophage would be a good idea, because they still want revenge and fight the turians, salarians and probably some others.



@C9316: I don't think a control agent would survive very long on Tuchanka, you would need an entire army to control just one clan. Also I'm not sure that fertile and less fertile females exist, it's probably just superstition, just like testicles transplants.

[C9316]

V4nBl00d wrote...

I just overheard two Krogans talking on Tuchanka, one of them thinks one of the children at the women's camp is his son, i guess you all know those guys. At the end they say something like: 'we need to protect the women and children, damn genophage.' I've never heard this before, maibe they say it only if Wrex is the leader. It's actually the first time I met a normal Krogan who was actually fighting to protect something, figthing for a noble goal.
To me, this is a proof that the Krogan's way of thinking is evolving and that the genophage won't be necessary in the future. Not only the Krogan 'Masterminds' (kinda funny calling a Krogan that) have realised that there are more important things in life than randomly fighting.

But right now I don't think curing the genophage would be a good idea, because they still want revenge and fight the turians, salarians and probably some others.

@C9316: I don't think a control agent would survive very long on Tuchanka, you would need an entire army to control just one clan. Also I'm not sure that fertile and less fertile females exist, it's probably just superstition, just like testicles transplants.

As control agent I meant the Geneophage sorry for the misunderstanding