79 réponses à ce sujet

[Canned Bullets]

Rewrite, the Geth can become a valuable ally in our war against the Reapers.

[Polka14]

Rewritten. They are simply machines. Tools of war. Could be used against reapers. Or reaper allies.

[mackster2289]

Rewrite



Ally against the Reapers, plus if it is bad for the Quarians, so be it. They damned themselves by trying to destroy the geth that became self-aware.

[Pacifien]

gmartin40 wrote...

Rewrite
-help you in the upcoming attacks against Reapers
-rewritten Geth and Quarians might be able to live in peace
-they are sorry for what they've done to the Quarian people

But
- the Heretics could revert back to wanting to join the Reapers
- Legion's Geth already might be able to live in peace with the Quarians, rewritten Heretics wanted to destroy all organics
- Legion's Geth might be sorry (or some geth variant thereof) for what they've done to the Quarian people, but the Heretics not so much

I had this rewrite/destroy debate with a friend the other day where I favored destruction while he favored rewrite. We broke down the major difference in our thinking to why the Heretics left the Geth in the first place.
- It was his belief that some form of manipulation on Sovereign's part started the rift and then the Reaper furthered the indoctrination once the Heretics joined. Somewhat like Saren or Matriarch Benezia being drawn to Sovereign for their own reasons and then, once in Sovereign's grasp, indoctrinated so they couldn't leave. In the Heretics case, they left because Sovereign promised them a future, then further changed their programming so that they would never want to leave and would follow the Reapers. So my friend said this was implicit based on what we knew about the Reapers.
- I told him that was bull****, the developers didn't know the meaning of being implicit, and unless someone could show me an explicit case of the Heretics being indoctrinated/program manipulated, I was going to view their split from the other Geth as a choice made of their own volition.
-- I did grant him the idea that Sovereign probably did alter Heretic programming after they joined. But after.

This pretty much put the debate at an impasse because he could view the rewrite as a benign reprogramming whereas I would view it as blatant brainwashing. It didn't matter what greater good or potential evil could come from one decision or the other, the first roadblock was whether the rewrite was ethical in the first place. He believed it was, I believed it wasn't.

Assuming I did believe it was benign reprogramming, I probably would have rewritten them and taken the chance that the rewrite would stick and the Heretics would reintegrate back into the Geth network with a better understanding of the value of organics. My Shepards are always big on second chances and/or ignoring consequences outside the scope of the Reaper threat. But I've read and participated in a dozen of threads of this same debate and have yet to find myself budging on idea that the very act of the rewrite is unethical to start with.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

I figured Sovereign/Nazala rewrote their programming in the first place. So changing it back to what it was before isn't brainwashing. If they choose by themselves to become heretics again, that's their decision. For now, I'm just giving them a second chance.

[Canned Bullets]

mackster2289 wrote...

Rewrite

Ally against the Reapers, plus if it is bad for the Quarians, so be it. They damned themselves by trying to destroy the geth that became self-aware.

Weren't the Geth self aware for a while? Until that one Geth Legion mentions scares its Quarian master?

[Angelic.....Not]

I'm replaying ME2, got to this part (last time I rewrote) but this time I noticed in the dialogue with Legion it seems to hint that by rewriting, the "good" Geth could be 'affected' by the Heretics memories.

Hmmmmm, is that a hint that in ME3 all Geth become Heretical. Now I'm wondering if by rewriting I'm just keeping a larger army of Geth around to have to fight in ME3 ???????

[Eudaemonium]

Angelic.....Not wrote...

I'm replaying ME2, got to this part (last time I rewrote) but this time I noticed in the dialogue with Legion it seems to hint that by rewriting, the "good" Geth could be 'affected' by the Heretics memories.

Hmmmmm, is that a hint that in ME3 all Geth become Heretical. Now I'm wondering if by rewriting I'm just keeping a larger army of Geth around to have to fight in ME3 ???????

Woohoo, necro! Albeit a timely one with what we know about ME3.

I hadn't noticed that Legion intimated that. I will have to pay attention next time. Can you recall exactly what it (they?) says (say)?

as for teh topic discussion though, pacifien basically hit the nail on the head for me. Though it is one of the decisions I flip-flop on most frequently, much like the Collector base.

[Elite Midget]

Rewrite.

The more bodies I have to throw at the Reapers the better.

[didymos1120]

Eudaemonium wrote...
I hadn't noticed that Legion intimated that. I will have to pay attention next time. Can you recall exactly what it (they?) says (say)?

Earlier in the mission Legion can say this:

"Yes. Once they return to us and upload their memories, we will share their experience of being altered."

Legion will say this about rewriting when decision time comes (if you investigate):

"They will agree with our judgments and return. We will integrate their experiences. All will be stronger."

Also, Shep will say this if you pick the "destroy" option:

"There's no guarantee they won't come to the same conclusions again, is there? To worship the Reapers, and attack organics?"

Legion replies:

"There is a non-zero probability of error."

Regardless of what Legion says there, this was always a simple deduction based on how we know geth work. Data- and resource-sharing is the basis of their consciousness.

[Dave666]

Destroy.

You are only losing a miniscule number this way and are not running the risk that the rewritten Geth might 'infect' the True Geth. Legion says that he doesn't know what will happen when they integrate.

I have a very strong feeling that this is one of those Paragon decisions that will bite you in the arse.

[CroGamer002]

Necro

[Admoniter]

Dave666 wrote...
I have a very strong feeling that this is one of those Paragon decisions that will bite you in the arse.

I would sincerly hope you are right on that count.

[Big stupid jellyfish]

Mesina2 wrote...

Necro

Captain Obvious.

[Foolsfolly]

This is a crazy necro thread.

But....rewrite.

I've only destroyed them once, on my second playthrough, and Legion comes out and says that it doesn't stop all Heretic geth. It only destroys those in the base. The heretics still exist, helping the Reapers.

After knowing that even my Renegade Shepards ended up rewriting them. Now there are no heretics working for the Reapers. Now it's highly likely Shepard will have the geth fleet to fight the Reapers with.

That's a win.

[Eudaemonium]

Foolsfolly wrote...

This is a crazy necro thread.

But....rewrite.

I've only destroyed them once, on my second playthrough, and Legion comes out and says that it doesn't stop all Heretic geth. It only destroys those in the base. The heretics still exist, helping the Reapers.

After knowing that even my Renegade Shepards ended up rewriting them. Now there are no heretics working for the Reapers. Now it's highly likely Shepard will have the geth fleet to fight the Reapers with.

That's a win.

The issue is really whether the re-integration of the heretic geth might have a knock-on effect on the true geth's way of thinking. If that occurs then you are either destroying the heretic's base (and thus leaving more heretics out in the galaxy) or you are potentially turning all the geth into heretics unknowingly and unwillingly. And that's on top of potential brainwashing ethical dilemmas.

I'm a Paragon player, but this is one decision I can never actually fully commit to one-way or the other on my playthroughs.

[Foolsfolly]

"They will agree with our judgments and return. We will integrate their experiences. All will be stronger."

That doesn't say they'll revert to being Reaper worshipers to me. If at all it said to me that they'd be given perspective, something the geth seem to lack.

If I'm wrong, I'll live with it. I won't complain and say BioWare's evil. I made a choice and I own those consequences.

But I think the geth rewrite is a safer bet than some other choices in the series...like the rachni. I'm still divided on that one.

EDIT:

Or the genophage. I can see curing the genophage helping out greatly in the short-term for defeating the Reapers. But a strong, quickly breeding krogan race can easily destablize galactic politics and events. Especially since they now have the genophage chip on their shoulders. They destablized the Council races before when they warred for no reason, now they have an anger at the universe.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 22 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[didymos1120]

Foolsfolly wrote...

"They will agree with our judgments and return. We will integrate their experiences. All will be stronger."

That doesn't say they'll revert to being Reaper worshipers to me. If at all it said to me that they'd be given perspective, something the geth seem to lack.

I don't think so either, but it does allow for the possibility that the heresy can get going again.

[Eudaemonium]

Its the 'non-zero probability of error' that has me a bit concerned. It reminds me too much of those million-to-one chances in sci-fi/fantasy stories that, y'know,almost always happen.

But in general it is somewhat safer to the Rachni choice. We at least have Legion's opinion to work with, and Legion knows its own people and their way of information processing. By contrast, the Rachni is very much an unknown quantity. We still don't really know how that's going to turn out, other than the general "it will have a big impact" we've been reading in the press. I mean, we know about Rachni husks, but we have no idea whether there will be additional positive effects or whether it will just bite us in the behind.

[Foolsfolly]

Yes, knowing Legion made the choice that much easier for me.

Legion's a great character. I love Legion. Legion offered me so much insight into how the geth think and behave. I no longer see the geth as mindless murder-bots bent on destruction. I actually see them more as isolationists who get dragged into fights by the virtue of being attacked.

They're not even occupying the quarian homeworld.

But they are naive, oddly. They don't understand simple things about organic reasoning. Legion doesn't understand differing opinions, it laments the fact the heretics think differently. I really think sharing the experiences of the heretics will shine a lot of light into opinions and different ways of thought.

Like a geth coming of age story.

As for the non-zero probability. That sounds ominous but it could very well be harmless. It's an important choice for Legion and I doubt Legion would not tell Shepard if the probability for error was high.

In fact, I don't think Legion ever lies.

But that's my opinion. We'll see how it plays out.

Rachni Queen could have lied. What do we know about her, her thought process, or about her species? She was the only sane one we came across. And she seconds away from dying, she could be saying anything to stay alive.

It's that possibility that has me concerned.

[TobyHasEyes]

Its a tough one, but I gotta go with destroy. Seeing as they could revert back to their Heresy, seems a big risk to take where the best moral outcome would be total brainwashing

[Foolsfolly]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Its a tough one, but I gotta go with destroy. Seeing as they could revert back to their Heresy, seems a big risk to take where the best moral outcome would be total brainwashing

Heresy seems like Reaper indoctrination to me, like the souring of the rachni song. Any ally Shepard has is a potential indoctrinated slave.

In fact, there's many many many theories back after ME2 came out that the Council was already indoctrinated since they continue to refuse to believe in the Reaper threat.

Now that they're here, I think it's safe to say many will become husks....and more than a few will become indoctrinated, hopefully even characters we know. You know, for story purposes. If we didn't know them before becoming indoctrinated slaves...then it's not as meaningful.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 22 avril 2011 - 10:29 .

[Bad King]

Re-write. It is a big risk, but when there are reapers on the doorstep you need to gamble, and if the gamble pays off we will get a stronger geth armada to fight the reapers.

Modifié par Bad King, 22 avril 2011 - 10:35 .