79 réponses à ce sujet

[candidate88766]

I gave the Council a second chance, I gave the Rachni a second chance, I may give the Krogan a second chance (saving the Genophage data for later) but to give the Heretic Geth a second chance I'd have to essentially brainwash them which seems to go against the point of giving them that second chance.

The problem I find is that its hard to know whether reprogramming Geth is the same as brainwashing an organic. As AI they are just as sentient and alive as any organic, but they work in such a different way its difficult if it crosses an ethical line.

If you save them they may have useful data on Sovereign, but they may be mad at you for brainwashing them. If you destroy them, you remove the risk of the Loyal Geth being affected, but the Loyal Geth may be mad that you blew up a fair amount of their species. Its probably the toughest choice I've had in the game, apart from possibly whether to let Garrus shot Sidonis or not.

The only reason I'm going to save the Geth for my main character's ME3 import is because that's the choice I made first time - I only did NG+ with my main Shepard to increase the level and make sure I haven't missed any dialogue. As far as I'm concerned my main Shepard's plot was decided on the first playthrough when I couldn't metagame and I had to make the choices without prior knowledge of them.

[Foolsfolly]

I don't know if rewriting is brainwashing.

It seems to reset their personality while at the same time keeping all their experiences, which they then share with the other geth.

A brainwashed person, of course, keeps their memories but it's a more...traumatic event. They're conditioned to behave and think in certain ways. The rewrite doesn't force them to never worship Reapers again, it just restores them to a point where they don't worship Reapers while keeping all their memories.

I really don't think the brainwashing analogy works for the rewrite. There's nothing an organic being can compare to it, really.

[candidate88766]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't know if rewriting is brainwashing.

It seems to reset their personality while at the same time keeping all their experiences, which they then share with the other geth.

A brainwashed person, of course, keeps their memories but it's a more...traumatic event. They're conditioned to behave and think in certain ways. The rewrite doesn't force them to never worship Reapers again, it just restores them to a point where they don't worship Reapers while keeping all their memories.

I really don't think the brainwashing analogy works for the rewrite. There's nothing an organic being can compare to it, really.

I don't even know if they have personalities, except Legion as he has more programs in one carrier. Brainwashing isn't really the right word, but its difficult to find a word that matches. Thats why I've always stuggled as to whether its ethical or not.

[Foolsfolly]

Legion is not the geth. But all 'true' geth are one so they have one personality. So...if you destroy the Heretic base then there's three geth personalities in the universe.

...weird right?

I have no idea if it's ethical or not. You change 2 of the 3 personalities. It's kind of like a dialectic argument. The true geth are a thesis and the heretics the antithesis. And now they merge and both change.

Legion keeps his personality as long as he's not a part of the geth whole.The moment he reconnects he changes, as does the geth whole.

[AerisBru]

Destroy. I just had a bad feeling about rewriting since it was hinted as unethical, unrespectful towards the geth, in a "brainwashing is bad in organics, but not in machines without soul?" way. I felt like something really bad would then happen and it would be my fault, so I decided to destroy them.

[Labrev]

Rewrite. And it's not really even a matter of them helping us or not.

I don't see it as being immorral to "brainwash" a race of machines. So having said that, I decided it best to bring them together again and work out their issues. What they decide to do after that point is up to them. You can't just go off killing people because they might take a side that you don't agree with. Maybe some organic races will join the Reapers in hopes of saving themselves, wouldn't make genocide of that entire race right.

[WreshmanMcGoo]

 This is definitely one of the toughest decisions in the game and may be the one to have the most positive or negative ramifications in ME3.

I chose rewrite for two simple reasons...

Reason 1: During Tali's loyalty mission, I took Legion along with me. It was a hoot, to say the least. After trying to convince the Quarians to find a peaceful solution to their ongoing conflict with the Geth, one of the Admirals asked Legion something interesting and Legion's response was even more interesting than the question. It went something along the lines of...

Admirial: "Would the Geth be open for peace?"

Legion: "We wish the Creators no harm, however, every time the Creator's saw the possibility of victory they attacked us 100% of the time. It is impossible to come to a decisive conclusion based on this fact."

My idea is, if the heretics are destroyed and the overall forces of the Geth are thinned out then the Quarians might see this as their chance to start a war in hopes of reclaiming their homeworld and former colonies. Remember, although the Geth and Heretics are different from each other, most Quarians are so close emotionally to the issue that they see little difference between the two. A weakness or destruction of one faction is seen as a weakness in the overall strength of the Geth.

So if the Quarians attack what they perceive as the weakened Geth forces, then both will just decimiate each other and weaken the war effort against the Reapers even further. I don't know about you guys, but having a full Migrant Fleet as well as the Geth will be a formidable ally in the oncoming war against the Reapers. I highly doubt the Geth will just start a new war against the Quarians out of the blue when their rewritten comrades rejoin them because if they've wanted to at any time up until this point than they would have inidividually or in collaboration with the former Heretics because there's no doubt that's what they would have wanted as well considering they were warped by the Reapers to hate all organic life.

My best hope is that both will actually work out a peace treaty or arrangement. When the war comes, maybe the Geth will even give the Quarians back their homeworld or at least let them use it as a base of operations when the war against the Reapers came. They may even co-exist and live together on the Quarian homeworld and former colonies...you never know. I think if I were you guys, I'd be more worried about trying to convince the Quarians to extend the olive branch than the Geth being the ones to start a new war against them. From what I saw, the Quarians were the ones for the most part itching for a fight.

Reason 2: The Geth aren't and never were in the Reaper's plans, the Geth have a formidable miltiary force with almost endless resources. Why wouldn't I want to add to their numbers if they oppose the Old Machines, as they call them. It's a no-brainer...unless they somehow come to a different and new conclusion once they are reunited with their rewritten comrades, which is extremely unlikely. 

Hah, went on a lot longer than I hoped for, oh well.

Legion: "We wish no harm towards the creators, however, everytime

"

[Missouri Tigers]

They both have their pros and cons. Rewriting means you could have more allies against the reapers in the future, or they could have a change of heart (non-zero probability of that happening) and become a threat again. Destroying them is the safe thing, but means you might be missing a crucial ally in the future. My favorite thing to do, though, is to rewrite them but tell the quarians to attack. Then, the quarians die (hopefully) and we're all happy.

[Agamo45]

I blew them up. Legion says there is still a chance that they might come to the conclusion of worshipping the Reapers again. I wasn't going to take that risk. And I wanted revenge for Eden Prime, Feros, the Citadel and all the other crimes that they committed. They deserved to be wiped out.

[expanding panic]

Its a game. So seeing how it is a game I say save them. Real life blow them sky high. Depends on which you want to go by.

[Pireb]

Problem is tho, that as Legion states, even the "true" geth wouldn't be who they were after the virus is released. They ALL get a change in their runtimes, not just the heretics.

Which is probably the reason he is not a confirmed recruitable squad member in ME3. And who's to say the new runtimes will be better just because they all share the same? They may end up fighting the Reapers, but that doesn't mean they will be our allies.

That said, i rewrite in all my playthroughs, because allies or not, i much MUCH rather be fighting millions of geth then millions of reapers... And as the geth will oppose the Reapers in ME3, they will be needing every single unit they can get.

So at the end of the day, if they turn hostile in ME3, at least they will be distracting the Reapers as much as us.

[Stammer6]

I chose to rewrite them as my paragon Shepard, I'm going to choose to eliminate them as my renegade Shepard.

Honestly, I find this to be a very black-and-white question. Mass Effect 2... didn't do moral choice very well, in my opinion.

[filetemo]

but weren't the heretic indoctrinated by a reaper virus? I never understod that part

[Whitering]

The Jedi Council "re-wrote" Revan in Kotor 1. It does not mean you take away all of their freedom, you just make that one choice for them. After all, any Geth working for the Reapers will turn the races against all Geth, I mean, look how they see AI already. Not doing the re-write risks a victorious council massing an army against the Geth after the fact. They continued the war after ME 1 after all. Only the rise of the Collectors stopped ME 2 from being another Geth shooting extravaganza.

[Myzzrimm]

What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? To use their own knowledge against them?

Etc. Point being, a rewrite was in order.

[DPSSOC]

filetemo wrote...

but weren't the heretic indoctrinated by a reaper virus? I never understod that part

From what I gathered the Heretics themselves joined the Reapers voluntarily in exchange for what Sovereign offered them.  They later developed the virus to make the Geth who hadn't joined agree with their decision.  How this virus got on to a million year old derelict vessel I don't know.

[Quething]

DPSSOC wrote...

filetemo wrote...

but weren't the heretic indoctrinated by a reaper virus? I never understod that part

From what I gathered the Heretics themselves joined the Reapers voluntarily in exchange for what Sovereign offered them.  They later developed the virus to make the Geth who hadn't joined agree with their decision.  How this virus got on to a million year old derelict vessel I don't know.

The virus was never on the Reaper. The virus was being stored on a data core at Daratar (aka Heretic Base). The storage unit, however, was Reapertech that Soveriegn loaned out to the Heretics, so in order to be able to crack it, Legion needed to first study a similar model. Thus, they went to the derelict Reaper to find one.

[Erani]

Rewrite. Having even more geth to fight the reapers seemed like the best choice.

[cruc1al]

Rewrite. Reapers indoctrinate organics to serve them, perhaps they can do the same to AI's; who's to say the Heretics originally chose to help the Reapers of their own free will? If that were true, rewriting them would make them want to fight the Reapers, not just able to.

Modifié par cruc1al, 14 août 2011 - 03:02 .

[Ztrobos]

Destroy. I will never trust synthetics. Im out to break the cycle, not switch one doom for another.

[DeathScepter]

Renagade Logic: If the Reaper can take the Heretic Geth Once, they will do that again.

Paragon Logic: We need allies.


No matter which choice you chose, the fact remains that Reapers are intelligent and dangerous. I won't put it past them to have Paragon Geth/Rachni choice to bite us in the ass in the end. Mainly due to their respective natures, Geth has hivemind, So a virus can reinfect them. And A Reaper can re brainwash the Noveria Rachni Queen to used again. And Reapers can offer Batarians a offer that they can't refuse. Revenge on Shepard.

[Bananables]

its just one of those things that you know will come up in ME3 in a substantial way. i mean were talking metric sh*t tons of geth's "lives" in your hands. and context-wise it has a lot to do with reapers. something tells me theyll be fighting for you once ME3 hits, as a bunch of people already predict. also, legion is already your ally, maybe he'll lead the rewritten geth against the reapers? that'd cool though amirite.

[Reorte]

One thing to remember about the geth is that it probably doesn't matter (up to a point) how many geth runtimes there are, if it comes to conflict its how much military hardware they've got. We know that most of them, heretic and the rest, just sit around in computers. We also don't know how many heretics aren't on the station; at least re-writing them has a good opportunity of getting to them all, whereas destruction will definitely leave some heretics.

No
matter which choice you chose, the fact remains that Reapers are
intelligent and dangerous. I won't put it past them to have Paragon
Geth/Rachni choice to bite us in the ass in the end. Mainly due to their
respective natures, Geth has hivemind, So a virus can reinfect them.
And A Reaper can re brainwash the Noveria Rachni Queen to used again.
And Reapers can offer Batarians a offer that they can't refuse. Revenge
on Shepard.

My complete guess is that one will turn out to help and the other hinder. That's a good reason for saving the rachni and rewriting the geth, so you can find the answer to both in ME3 Actually what happens with the geth will (hopefully) depend upon your stance with the quarians too. The other potential big one that doesn't seem to get mentioned as much is the combination of kill Wrex or not and what to do with the genophage work. My feeling is that the combination of those two decisions could have as equally as big an impact.

Modifié par Reorte, 23 décembre 2011 - 12:38 .

[LucidStrike]

Schneidend wrote...

Destroy. No guarantee their math won't come to the "reapers are cool" conclusion a second time.

That's actually why I went for the rewrite. Yeah, it's wrong to brainwash them, but it's completely possible they could change their minds afterwards. If they were destroyed, that'd just be the end of it.

That said, I'm not sure when the last post here was, but I think Geth are confirmed enemies in ME3, so, either the rewrite didn't change all heretics, some Geth became heretics afterwards, or neither faction is completely amicable.

[Ztrobos]

Interesting Lucidstrike. Regardless of what you do, the Geth still has the nasty habit of killing any organic who attempts to make contact, sadly I could'nt press Legion about it, but usually I take that as a sign that someone on the other side of the border is thinking unhealthy thoughts. We learn that Geth are extreme isolationists, even to a point where they regard gifts of technology as a form of harmful manipulation. It may be that mere interest in their nature is enough to provoke acts of self defence. It may be that they won't agree to help unless you help the quarians hack and subdue them. I guess we'll see soon enough.