57 réponses à ce sujet

[Manwe Sulimo II]

I think this quest was Legion's loyalty quest, but it was the one where you had the option to destroy these geth in some ship OR reprogram them so that they agree with Legion that following the Reaper's is wrong.

After much agonizing, I decided to let the geth have their free will and simply destroy them instead of converting them to our side.  But I got like 30 Renegade points.  The game was clear that overriding their free will was something that would be considered Renegade-ish.  Is this working as intended?

[KBGeller]

Well, generally, death = insta-renegade and non-death = paragon in any instances that issue arises.

[Manwe Sulimo II]

KBGeller wrote...

Well, generally, death = insta-renegade and non-death = paragon in any instances that issue arises.

But in my opinion, dying with your free will is better than living with an altered mind.

[luet1991]

Thing is, it is renegade, because before Sovereign came and reprogrammed them to follow him, they all agreed with Legion. So, instead of rescuing them from the virus that Sovereign implanted them with, you killed them. Instead of giving them their free will back, you purged them. That's why you got renegade points.



Sovereign gave them a virus to take away their free will man, you could have given it back XD

Do it again and save the Geth, trust me.

[DTKT]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

KBGeller wrote...

Well, generally, death = insta-renegade and non-death = paragon in any instances that issue arises.

But in my opinion, dying with your free will is better than living with an altered mind.

Yeah, it was a weird choice. Though, look at it this way, destroying millions of a another race is worse than letting them live fighting for the good reasons. In some ways, you "free" them from the Reapers indoctrination. The Heretics are not "true" geths.

[Manwe Sulimo II]

luet1991 wrote...

Thing is, it is renegade, because before Sovereign came and reprogrammed them to follow him, they all agreed with Legion. So, instead of rescuing them from the virus that Sovereign implanted them with, you killed them. Instead of giving them their free will back, you purged them. That's why you got renegade points.

Sovereign gave them a virus to take away their free will man, you could have given it back XD
Do it again and save the Geth, trust me.

SON OF A----

Argh.  I know this is just going to bite me in the butt in the third Mass Effect.  ROAR!

But they don't make this clear when you're given the decision.  They could have brought this point up agian because I totally forgot. 

[Switch218]

free will is renegade, lol

[luet1991]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

luet1991 wrote...

Thing is, it is renegade, because before Sovereign came and reprogrammed them to follow him, they all agreed with Legion. So, instead of rescuing them from the virus that Sovereign implanted them with, you killed them. Instead of giving them their free will back, you purged them. That's why you got renegade points.

Sovereign gave them a virus to take away their free will man, you could have given it back XD
Do it again and save the Geth, trust me.

SON OF A----

Argh.  I know this is just going to bite me in the butt in the third Mass Effect.  ROAR!

But they don't make this clear when you're given the decision.  They could have brought this point up agian because I totally forgot. 

If you talk to Legion about it, he states that before Sovereign reprogrammed them, their free will logic was on par with Legions. They make it pretty obvious that reprogramming them is the right decision, as well as would stop the Quarian/Geth war. ALSO they may help you in ME3.

[KBGeller]

And technically, both are free will and neither are free will. They are artificial intelligence, they are not intelligent. The whole thing is still based on programs and numbers. They feel one way because a number is whatever Legion said, like 1.31221 vs 1.31222 and that Legion and the others have 1.31221 and the "heretics" have 1.31222 and that is the entirety of the difference. This is not intelligent thought or free will. It is still code based on input and numbers. *shrug*

[Manwe Sulimo II]

luet1991 wrote...

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

luet1991 wrote...

Thing is, it is renegade, because before Sovereign came and reprogrammed them to follow him, they all agreed with Legion. So, instead of rescuing them from the virus that Sovereign implanted them with, you killed them. Instead of giving them their free will back, you purged them. That's why you got renegade points.

Sovereign gave them a virus to take away their free will man, you could have given it back XD
Do it again and save the Geth, trust me.

SON OF A----

Argh.  I know this is just going to bite me in the butt in the third Mass Effect.  ROAR!

But they don't make this clear when you're given the decision.  They could have brought this point up agian because I totally forgot. 

If you talk to Legion about it, he states that before Sovereign reprogrammed them, their free will logic was on par with Legions. They make it pretty obvious that reprogramming them is the right decision, as well as would stop the Quarian/Geth war. ALSO they may help you in ME3.

I don't know about you and if it changes with your choice of team mates, but Legion was indecisive and Samara was adamant that reprogramming them would be wrong.  You can generally deduce what BioWare considers good or bad by clues like these.

[GnusmasTHX]

... Just pick the top right option. All the time.

[Monglor]

The reason it's renegade is because you're killing several million creatures because you don't trust that their freedom will turn out the way you want it to. They don't think like people, it's not 'will', it's maths, so it's only like putting your toaster on a higher setting ('hmm, now crispy is right!'). It's a renegade kill because Shepherd seems to be thinking that the only reliably friendly Geth is a dead one, and since Legion chimes in with something along the lines of, "We can always build more killbots" it doesn't seem so bad. It's hard to nail the morality though because the Geth are sort of a hive mind, but not quite. Ultimately though you're still killing several million things for the sake of them not posing a threat.



It's a shame you can't really define why you do things to affect the system but then I suppose it would be too complicated.

[Jetfire99]

Aye the Geth were likely brain washed after a while. I stomached the choice by thinking you were fixing what was done to them. Also did anyone catch just how big the Geth nation is? EDI comments at one point it's got an entire arm of the Galaxcy. With that kind of forces and /prepared/ to fight? It will be interesting.

[Manwe Sulimo II]

KBGeller wrote...

And technically, both are free will and neither are free will. They are artificial intelligence, they are not intelligent. The whole thing is still based on programs and numbers. They feel one way because a number is whatever Legion said, like 1.31221 vs 1.31222 and that Legion and the others have 1.31221 and the "heretics" have 1.31222 and that is the entirety of the difference. This is not intelligent thought or free will. It is still code based on input and numbers. *shrug*

This gets philosophical, but I can only agree to this if this happened in the real world because I don't believe than human beings are just physical creatures.  I believe there's a spiritual aspect to us that give us our reasoning ability and our culpability to an objective moral standard.

But I think the universe of Mass Effect is simply naturalistic.  Legion can't possibly have a soul or spirit.  Those can't be created by any programmer.

Modifié par Manwe Sulimo II, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:01 .

[Candy Wagon]

The first Mass Effect set the top right option as being paragon in stone. You kinda just learn to hold your cursor in that directin and mash A...or X, if you like denying the writers all their hard work.

[crimsontotem]

They took out millions of quarians and killed Tali's father, so I blew them up eye for an eye baby

[Homebound]

I felt that killing the Heretic Geths would be the moral choice to do than "CPU-Wash" them. Id rather let someone die for their beliefs than make them forsake what they felt was right.



But Bioware disagrees. Oh well.

[Candy Wagon]

That border between logic and six text options leaves much to be desired, doesn't it?

[KBGeller]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

KBGeller wrote...

And technically, both are free will and neither are free will. They are artificial intelligence, they are not intelligent. The whole thing is still based on programs and numbers. They feel one way because a number is whatever Legion said, like 1.31221 vs 1.31222 and that Legion and the others have 1.31221 and the "heretics" have 1.31222 and that is the entirety of the difference. This is not intelligent thought or free will. It is still code based on input and numbers. *shrug*

This gets philosophical, but I can only agree to this if this happened in the real world because I don't believe than human beings are just physical creatures.  I believe there's a spiritual aspect to us that give us our reasoning ability and our culpability to an objective moral standard.

But I think the universe of Mass Effect is simply naturalistic.  Legion can't possibly have a soul or spirit.  Those can't be created by any programmer.

I will not eliminate the possibility, as the "Human Experience" often has thigns that cant really be explained. However, lacking evidence of this, I cannot scientifically agree.

What makes us organic and different from this simple number difference is that we have fluids/chemicals that affect our electrical nature. I mean, hell, we are so similar to any other machine as far as energy production goes in the fact both mechanic and organic creatures metabolize ethanol for energy.

Anyway, our hormones and other chemicals create our feelings that totally overwhelm our thought. As they are not of a thought process and do not require thought to feel. They inspire thoughts. (In reality), you cannot have a true personality without chemical agents. Personality can be faked/programmed, but not real without hormones and the like.

[Sparrow475]

I let them all burn knowing fully it was the renegade choice on my paragon (aside from that choice) because I want to see the Quarians get their world back by the end of ME3.

[Candy Wagon]

Geth on Quarian. That's what I call independence.

Modifié par Candy Wagon, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:16 .

[luet1991]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

luet1991 wrote...

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

luet1991 wrote...

Thing is, it is renegade, because before Sovereign came and reprogrammed them to follow him, they all agreed with Legion. So, instead of rescuing them from the virus that Sovereign implanted them with, you killed them. Instead of giving them their free will back, you purged them. That's why you got renegade points.

Sovereign gave them a virus to take away their free will man, you could have given it back XD
Do it again and save the Geth, trust me.

SON OF A----

Argh.  I know this is just going to bite me in the butt in the third Mass Effect.  ROAR!

But they don't make this clear when you're given the decision.  They could have brought this point up agian because I totally forgot. 

If you talk to Legion about it, he states that before Sovereign reprogrammed them, their free will logic was on par with Legions. They make it pretty obvious that reprogramming them is the right decision, as well as would stop the Quarian/Geth war. ALSO they may help you in ME3.

I don't know about you and if it changes with your choice of team mates, but Legion was indecisive and Samara was adamant that reprogramming them would be wrong.  You can generally deduce what BioWare considers good or bad by clues like these.

Legion is indecisive because Bioware wrote the story that way to allow you to make he choice, though if you notice the concensus favoured the reprogram by 3 points. Samara is just biased, she's a Justicar and does not believe in second chances. You are Sheperd, however, and Shepered is who you make him/her to be. Any choice is the correct choice, as long as you are playing Sheperd how you would play yourself.

[MountainPuncher]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...


I don't know about you and if it changes with your choice of team mates, but Legion was indecisive and Samara was adamant that reprogramming them would be wrong.  You can generally deduce what BioWare considers good or bad by clues like these.

This isn't the last game where the other party member will always offer the opposite opinion.  Tali would have also urged for their destruction, for obvious reasons, while I imagine Mordin would say to reprogram them over killing them.

[Raltar]

If anything, it should have been a neutral choice. Getting renegade points for destroying evil heretic geth is not cool. Getting paragon points for brainwashing them is even less cool.

[Lance Infantry]

crimsontotem wrote...

They took out millions of quarians and killed Tali's father, so I blew them up eye for an eye baby

well they were slaves...