57 réponses à ce sujet

[rines]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

KBGeller wrote...

Well, generally, death = insta-renegade and non-death = paragon in any instances that issue arises.

But in my opinion, dying with your free will is better than living with an altered mind.

Would you kill the jews or let them live?

Same concept, the Geth are a sapient race, and you commited genocide.

They are AWARE, the are sapient, they are living.

[mdp310]

If you delete the virus and let the heretics rejoin the geth, it's a lot like giving them a second chance.

So giving the millions of dudes who tried to kill you a second chance? pretty damn paragon.

[rines]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

KBGeller wrote...

And technically, both are free will and neither are free will. They are artificial intelligence, they are not intelligent. The whole thing is still based on programs and numbers. They feel one way because a number is whatever Legion said, like 1.31221 vs 1.31222 and that Legion and the others have 1.31221 and the "heretics" have 1.31222 and that is the entirety of the difference. This is not intelligent thought or free will. It is still code based on input and numbers. *shrug*

This gets philosophical, but I can only agree to this if this happened in the real world because I don't believe than human beings are just physical creatures.  I believe there's a spiritual aspect to us that give us our reasoning ability and our culpability to an objective moral standard.

But I think the universe of Mass Effect is simply naturalistic.  Legion can't possibly have a soul or spirit.  Those can't be created by any programmer.

ever heard of artificial intelligence?

[MountainPuncher]

Obviously religion is just opening up a whole other can of worms...



Synthetic life has as much right to existence as organic life. It's just that organic life comes out of spontaneous natural reactions and millions of years of evolution, while synthetic life is made very purposefully. The Geth have clearly evolved on their own, and while they have a strange way of thinking that doesn't mean that they are any less "valid" or worthy of life as organics. The Rachni have their own bizarre thought processes as well.

[rines]

MountainPuncher wrote...

Obviously religion is just opening up a whole other can of worms...

Synthetic life has as much right to existence as organic life. It's just that organic life comes out of spontaneous natural reactions and millions of years of evolution, while synthetic life is made very purposefully. The Geth have clearly evolved on their own, and while they have a strange way of thinking that doesn't mean that they are any less "valid" or worthy of life as organics. The Rachni have their own bizarre thought processes as well.

The Geth have an AI. The only difference between humans and them is one is flesh. The Geth are as much living creatures as we are.

[Monglor]

Nah the Geth are killbots. Legion explains this to an extent. Creatures of flesh and blood are born and raised. Geth are built, and they have a collective consciousness. It's like, but not the same, as killing actual living creatures. It's one of the more interesting moral puzzles in the game, like the genophage.

[Whereto]

who said it was the geths free will

[Falmung]

They weren't reprogrammed by Sovereign. They chose to believe on Sovereign because they saw him as a god. Lets put it like this. Force the geth to abandon another religion or kill them for being on that religion.



Thinking on the big picture I chose reprogram because its not time to think about morality. A Reaper army is coming and we need united armies. Not crippled geths which will give a chance for the quarians to win.



I am in favor of the geth because the geth never did nothing wrong. They simply questioned their existence and the quarians tried killing them. They fought for survival. The Heretics are the only evil geth in this part for siding with Sovereign. Blinded by treating sovereign as a god.

[genkilabs]

Wow, I'm really agonizing over this...



Once some/a Geth have the belief that Sovereign is a god, whether by independent analysis or re-programming, it is their heartfelt belief; is it anyone's right to change another's heartfelt belief? My off-the-cuff answer is, no. Further, as humans, do we consider it immoral to convince someone of a course of action by speech? Usually, no. However, throughout human history leaders have used simple speech to convince masses to commit horrible atrocities. Is this brainwashing, or reprogramming of these masses? How are these moving speeches, driving people to do what they would otherwise not, different from reprogramming Geth, intent? Is the goodness/morality of intent not largely based on perspective?



Perhaps I'll let them all live...

The big danger drawing me to kill them all is the possibility that once the Geth as a species accrue the collective last moments of every Heretic whom Shepard has shot, they may change their opinion of humanity. I mean, wouldn't they all suddenly have a "last" memory of being shot, or watching other mobile platforms shot, by Shepard, again and again and again? That can't make Shepard popular.



ARGH!

[Skyblade012]

Things are not quite as clear cut as they seem.

First, there is nothing definitive saying that Nazara reprogrammed them. The heretics "accepted his logic" is the exact phrase used. The geth do not always agree on everything. Remember, Legion's higher level runtimes are split on the reprogramming decision. These splits likely occur frequently among the geth, and would last either until all options were fully explored and all of the geth runtimes agreed ("reached consensus"), or until a situation came up like the one with Sovereign. The geth which disagree leave, and the others let them. "Their conclusion was correct for them, ours was correct for us. Neither result was an error." Had it been a reprogramming, Legion would have made it much more obvious, as well as had to explain why the reprogramming would have failed to change all of the geth.

Second, the reprogramming does not entirely void their free will. It changes a baseline algorithm, which in turn affects the results of their entire mathematical logic structure, and would change it to fit in line with the original geth. Yet the actual amount of free will they possess would not change. The heretics currently have no real choice. They follow Sovereign because of their logic path, and as long as they are stuck with that logic path, they will not choose another. The true geth, similarly, are frozen on their path by their own conclusions, drawn from similarly fixed programming. If the true geth do indeed still have free will, then the heretics, once reprogrammed, will as well. It would be a programming equivalent to counseling a paranoid or schizophrenic organic entity. Changing the direction of the choices, but not eliminating them. If it does indeed eliminate all choices, then the geth never had free will in the first place, and the point is moot.

Third, if it works, it is a more permanent solution. Destroying the heretic base is of great help to the rest of the galaxy in fighting the heretic geth, yes, but there is no proof that all of the heretic geth runtimes remain on the station. The heretics might still be able to rebuild and become a new threat. The virus, however, is broadcast through the FTL network, and would hit every heretic as it reconnected. Those that remained isolated would be outnumbered and would diminish in capacity whenever a connection was made, until, eventually, they would either all be converted, or they would lack the numbers needed to achieve sentience.

And, finally, it is not a guaranteed solution. The heretics, upon receiving the new baseline operations, would reanalyze their paths and return to the geth, yes. However, Legion itself explains that the true geth would then integrate the experiences that the heretics had while serving under Sovereign, and that the results of that reintegration would be impossible to predict. If the integration causes another reexamination of the path the geth are forging toward the future, it might bring about a new consensus that we might not be happy with. Perhaps they might not follow the Reapers, but they may still come to the conclusion that it would be best if organics were eliminated. An unlikely possibility, but still a possibility. Never underestimate free will.

Modifié par Skyblade012, 11 février 2010 - 02:09 .

[Shatakai]

I see being Paragon as being ignorant in many parts of the game. Sure, when your Shepard first hears about essentially brainwashing a significant chunk of the Geth population it seems Renegade to do so. However, after learning that they only followed Sovereign due to indoctrination and that destroying them is the only other foreseeable option, your Shepard has become educated and can actually analyze the situation to make the "right" choice.

[The_Undecided]

I really agonized over this choice too. While the game clearly labels the "right" and "wrong" choices I couldn't help but wonder if reprogramming the heretics was worse than killing them. I had brought legion along for several missions and had grown quite attached to him (and by extension the other Geth). The normal Geth make a big deal about free will and letting other species determine their own future, but Legion seemed fine with the prospect of reprogramming millions of other Geth.



In the end I figured that the heretic Geth had formed a religion about a force that was bent on exterminating all intelligent life in the galaxy most likely including the Geth themselves. If the Keepers and Collectors are any indication religious devotion is not good enough for the Reapers, they demand zero free will and would either take that away from the Geth or just kill them once they outlived their usefulness.



Given knowledge of the above any kind of logic that says to follow the Reapers is just plain wrong/insane. Basically the heretic Geth either didn't understand the Reapers plans (and it's doubtfully they would listen to reason) or they formed a dangerous suicidal terrorist cult on a galactic scale. If a human agreed to that sort of thing I would want them put in a mental hospital.



Reprogramming the Geth seems to be the merciful action, between shooting a dangerous lunatic and healing their mind what would you choose?

[kriosfan]

I see reprogramming them a better and more paragon option because I feel as if the geth are not completely alive, so reprogramming them isn't a bad thing at all; you're guiding them to the right path.

[Bogsnot1]

[alx119]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

luet1991 wrote...

Thing is, it is renegade, because before Sovereign came and reprogrammed them to follow him, they all agreed with Legion. So, instead of rescuing them from the virus that Sovereign implanted them with, you killed them. Instead of giving them their free will back, you purged them. That's why you got renegade points.

Sovereign gave them a virus to take away their free will man, you could have given it back XD
Do it again and save the Geth, trust me.

SON OF A----

Argh.  I know this is just going to bite me in the butt in the third Mass Effect.  ROAR!

But they don't make this clear when you're given the decision.  They could have brought this point up agian because I totally forgot. 

Hey you have time until ME3, you can always do another playthrough :3

And indeed was a hard decission, I went with letting them live, even if I wasn't so sure myself if that was the best, simply because, well, at least if they lived, even if they were "reprogrammed" they could always break their chains, and think for themselves. 

And then I thought of Sovereign being an ass over them, and my doubts simply went away, more geth on the geth's side.

I feel this is going to be bad in ME3 actually, that somehow it's gonna backfire for the paragons xD It's bond to be interesting :3

[Inutaisho7996]

I agree that assigning those choices either Renegade or Paragon was a bad decision.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

KBGeller wrote...

Well, generally, death = insta-renegade and non-death = paragon in any instances that issue arises.

But in my opinion, dying with your free will is better than living with an altered mind.

Initially, being repulsed by the idea of brainwashing an entire people is considered a Paragon stance, but when you come down to the final decision, you're given the choice between the safe, definitive solution of blowing them the hell up, to the relatively risky, merciful solution of rewriting them, a choice which may bite you in the ass later but at least avoids having to wipe them all out.

It's a major moral gray area. Rather than thinking in terms of Renegade/Paragon, it'd be more accurate to think of it in terms of Renegade/Paragade.

EDIT: As a related note, if you bring Mordin on this mission, he compares re-writing the Heretics to unleashing the genophage on the krogan, mentioning that it could be considered "kinder" than simply wiping them out.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 27 mai 2011 - 07:49 .

[In Exile]

luet1991 wrote...
If you talk to Legion about it, he states that before Sovereign reprogrammed them, their free will logic was on par with Legions. They make it pretty obvious that reprogramming them is the right decision, as well as would stop the Quarian/Geth war. ALSO they may help you in ME3.

?

Sovereign didn't reprogram them. They were building a virus to reprogram the rest of the geth. But the heretics willingly sided with the reapers. That was their free choice.

[ScaryJeff]

rines wrote...

Manwe Sulimo II wrote...

KBGeller wrote...

Well, generally, death = insta-renegade and non-death = paragon in any instances that issue arises.

But in my opinion, dying with your free will is better than living with an altered mind.

Would you kill the jews or let them live?

Same concept, the Geth are a sapient race, and you commited genocide.

They are AWARE, the are sapient, they are living.

"The jews" werent planning brainwashing anyone to share their beliefs. Also werent they planning on commiting genocide on anyone.

Also were the heretics in war with the council spaceduring Legions loyaltymission wich doesnt make killing them neceasarily right but makes your ridiculous allegory even more baseless. Genocide would normally be moraly wrong but the Geth/Heretics are different in one way, there are no civilians among them, there all soldiers. Killing enemy soldiers during war isnt something unusual.

[Eudaemonium]

The whole 'Sovereign indoctrinated the geth' thing seems to be an assumption on the part of the fanbase that it would seem, many think was in the game. The game never states one way or the other. If anything it implies that they went to Sovereign of their own free will, whether they were indoctrinated later is a matter up for question, but the initial decision *appears* to have been theirs.

The whole rewrite/destroy decision is one of the more ethically murky in the game, and there isn't really a 'correct' decision. Any decision you make will be based on a number of factors, such as "were they indoctrinated?", "are the geth people?", "will reintegrating the heretic memories have undesirable knock-on-effects?" The third one of these will be made clear in ME3, the first may remain unknown, but the second is a philosophical question that will vary person-to-person depending on their ethical and metaphysical perspective on existence. And of course then leads to, "if the geth are/aren't persons, is it more ethical and/or tactical to destroy or brainwash/rewrite them?"

ScaryJeff wrote...

rines wrote...

Would you kill the jews or let them live?

"The
jews" werent planning brainwashing anyone to share their beliefs. Also
werent they planning on commiting genocide on anyone.

In addition to being baseless (as you correctly stated), the actual dilemma as presented in-game would be more akin to "Kill Group X or make them Not-Group X". Either way the group (in this case "heretic Geth") ceases to exist, whether through literal death or otherwise.

Modifié par Eudaemonium, 27 mai 2011 - 08:24 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Eudaemonium wrote...

The whole 'Sovereign indoctrinated the geth' thing seems to be an assumption on the part of the fanbase that it would seem, many think was in the game. The game never states one way or the other.

Legion would like to have a word with everyone who assumes that.

I also find it humorous that people think the geth can be "indoctrinated," as if a method of subversion designed to work on a human brain could work on a machine (pro tip: it couldn't).

[Any_ILL]

If the geth are one entity with several eyes, it's impossible that some have different opinion once all the data is shared with everyone. Which means each software evolve as an independant IA even if they are not conscious of the phenomenon. The fact that legion has the N7 armor is a proof of an evolution (they're starting to grasp abstract concept as "symbols"). If they are evolving (and evolving differently one from the others), if they're starting to adherate to abstract concept, then we can say they are alive and have a conscience. With the symbolism and the will to survive as a race, they're even sentient. So it's as wrong to reprogramm them as it would be for every other race.

I still chosed to do it with my parangon character because she was intimately convinced that they didn't followed sovereign free-willing. My shep consider them as a race exactly like any other (human include) and no race has ever followed the reapers without being brain-washed.

I think my shep is right. If they had followed sovereign free-willing, reversing the virus (which was conceived to change a precise value) wouldn't have worked. They should have designed another similar virus, acting on another variable (which they would have needed to find) when reversing just means changing one value in the code.
And reversing the virus implies that the constant in the heretics source code has already changed and they're gonna turn it back in its original value which would mean the heretics have been brain-washed to begin with.

edit: A method that works on human and can work on every biologic race. I don't see why an advance technology like reaper's one wouldn''t make a geth version. Legion don't think they've been brainwhashed. But if he doesn't know the technology, he can be wrong. He was already wrong about the geth totally being one.

Modifié par Any_ILL, 27 mai 2011 - 08:26 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Any_ILL wrote...

I think my shep is right. If they had followed sovereign free-willing, reversing the virus (which was conceived to change a precise value) wouldn't have worked.

By that logic the virus wouldn't have worked on the "true" geth in the first place.

They should have designed another similar virus, acting on another variable (which they would have needed to find) when reversing just means changing one value in the code.
And reversing the virus implies that the constant in the heretics source code has already changed and they're gonna turn it back in its original value which would mean the heretics have been brain-washed to begin with.

Stop pretending that you understand AI programming. You're only going to hurt yourself.

Pro tip: there is no "original" value beyond what is already there, and nothing is being changed "back." In both cases--whoever the virus is used on--a value is being changed from what originally existed to bring the overall logic of the geth in question in line with the opposing side's. Legion's explanation of why the Heretics followed Sovereign in the first place isn't a matter of the values being different, but a matter of them focusing on different values altogether (Something like, "A metaphor: geth say 'one is less than two'; Heretics say, 'two is less than three.'") This isn't altogether unlike organic decision-making, where two people can look at the same issue (say, preserving/destroying the Collector Base) and deem one or the other decision more "right" based on which danger they're more focused on (Paragons say, "The Illusive Man can't be trusted," while Renegades say "any chance to gain an advantage against the Reapers is a chance that must be taken").

The Heretic virus is designed, fundamentally, to alter a specific value related to a particular logic function--presumably this alters the geth's perception of the value they focus on, making it seem more or less desirable than it did before the virus was introduced. I can't say for sure, I don't understand AI programming, but that's my best guess. It's the only guess I can come up with that's in line with Legion's explanation of how the geth and Heretics came to differing conclusions, anyway. 

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 27 mai 2011 - 08:38 .

[Any_ILL]

Stop pretending that you understand how debate works, you'll only hurt yourself. edit: eh you actually edited your post to argue. Much better.

oups, I was not over. I'll make it simple. Reaper change value in adress X to b. Reversing change it back to a. But if they choosed freely to follow him, the value should still be "a" so the reversing virus wouldn't be able to change anything in the code. edit: So this part is outdated. I'll detail a little more.

Modifié par Any_ILL, 27 mai 2011 - 08:40 .

[ScaryJeff]

If Sovereign would indoctrinated, brainwashed or whatever the heretics he would have done it with all, not a small group. Because unlike Harbinger Sovereign is actually halfway comepetent.