116 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

For what it's worth, I think it's worth it for nothing else than the emotional impact. I would have paid $5 to find out more about the battle itself. The conversation in the beginning as well as the documents were very enlightening. It gave my character a sense of closure, and I liked that.

gatekeeper780 wrote...

I liked it. I do agree that Alistair and Wynne should have had a bit more to say about things, and finding those certain two items should have came with a cutscene or at least some dialogue from Alistair considering how Ostagar affected him in the first place. That is the one thing that I found really odd.

[Edit]- Also the gift you find there should have also came  with some dialogue when you give it to the right person.

I think a cutscene from him would have been nice, but I'm keeping the gift. Means more to me anyway.

[le_cygne]

Querne wrote...

Interesting content is, for me, new dialouge options, varying side quests (not like this chest/bag- horror), new party members or some interesting NPCs.

If there´s something I had really enough of in the basic game it´s KILLING DARKSPAWN and ARMOUR. Thank you very much.

I agree. To me, Warden's Keep was a pleasant surprise after some of the flak it received. Sure, it was small for the price, but it told a nice little story, had a few interesting NPCs, and allowed for a few nice comments and opinions from the various party members. Most importantly, it gave the PC some interesting questions to consider (was Sophia a hero, or was she a monster? Avernus?) and choices about how to deal with the Peak.

RtO, to me, missed out on the interesting stuff. Sure, there's a little back story, and that's nifty. But the player is never really an actor in the world. Basically, his role is to drop by and slaughter darkspawn without much motivation or any choice. And the fact that party members outside of the "Ostagar 3" don't have anything at all to say is quite disappointing. I understand that Alistair should have more to add than Shale. But Morrigan literally doesn't open her mouth once on the battlefield, now teeming with dark magic, where she met the warden and left her home?

On the other hand, what I don't care much about is loot, and what I don't like at all is really excellent loot that the player doesn't have to work for. Unfortunately, I know that people will keep spending real money for it, and that it's easier to make and sell a +12 sword (or a second chance to get the party member we shooed away at the beginning of the game--why remove consequences from the game?) versus an interesting little NPC or two, so I expect to see the difficulty curve will continue to drop for it.

That said, I can at least appreciate that they made Cailan's armor good, but not stupidly powerful. I wouldn't be adverse to a challenge-driven, high-level "dungeon" with difficult gameplay and nice rewards, but feeling like you've cheated by playing DLC is not fun at all.

ETA: For those still on the fence, I love Dragon Age enough that I don't regret picking it up for the price of a pint. That said, from the perspective of what I enjoy about the game, there were some major flaws that I hope Bioware understands, so they might stick with a game play model closer to Warden's Keep in the future.

Modifié par le_cygne, 31 janvier 2010 - 04:32 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

The encounters are the biggest letdown.

The main campaign has more than enough filler combat, and RtO just adds more of the same.



I'll wait for the review on next DLC to see if the encounter desgin becomes more challenging and imaginative before buying it.

[Eurypterid]

Moving to the spoilers forum. Too many spoilers creeping in here.

[squid5580]

I am disappointed but not with the length, the enemies or the dialogue. My complaint is this is DLC that is 3 months late. Not because of the delay fiasco but for this to have any emotional impact you need to experience it first hand. It should have been part of the retail game for that reason. It gives closure to the single biggest event in the story. First charging for a storage chest then charging us for the end of that plotline? It is like BW has been listening to the DLC conspiracy theorists and instead of heeding the warnings they are taking notes and thinking hey that's a good idea.

[Monica21]

le_cygne wrote...

Querne wrote...

Interesting content is, for me, new dialouge options, varying side quests (not like this chest/bag- horror), new party members or some interesting NPCs.

If there´s something I had really enough of in the basic game it´s KILLING DARKSPAWN and ARMOUR. Thank you very much.

I agree. To me, Warden's Keep was a pleasant surprise after some of the flak it received. Sure, it was small for the price, but it told a nice little story, had a few interesting NPCs, and allowed for a few nice comments and opinions from the various party members. Most importantly, it gave the PC some interesting questions to consider (was Sophia a hero, or was she a monster? Avernus?) and choices about how to deal with the Peak.

RtO, to me, missed out on the interesting stuff. Sure, there's a little back story, and that's nifty. But the player is never really an actor in the world. Basically, his role is to drop by and slaughter darkspawn without much motivation or any choice. And the fact that party members outside of the "Ostagar 3" don't have anything at all to say is quite disappointing. I understand that Alistair should have more to add than Shale. But Morrigan literally doesn't open her mouth once on the battlefield, now teeming with dark magic, where she met the warden and left her home?

On the other hand, what I don't care much about is loot, and what I don't like at all is really excellent loot that the player doesn't have to work for. Unfortunately, I know that people will keep spending real money for it, and that it's easier to make and sell a +12 sword (or a second chance to get the party member we shooed away at the beginning of the game--why remove consequences from the game?) versus an interesting little NPC or two, so I expect to see the difficulty curve will continue to drop for it.

That said, I can at least appreciate that they made Cailan's armor good, but not stupidly powerful. I wouldn't be adverse to a challenge-driven, high-level "dungeon" with difficult gameplay and nice rewards, but feeling like you've cheated by playing DLC is not fun at all.

ETA: For those still on the fence, I love Dragon Age enough that I don't regret picking it up for the price of a pint. That said, from the perspective of what I enjoy about the game, there were some major flaws that I hope Bioware understands, so they might stick with a game play model closer to Warden's Keep in the future.

Not sure about the highlighted part. You heard from the King's guard about Cailan's chest, his arms and armor and documents. Your character has a very personal connection to Ostagar. You character doesn't know what he or she will find, but that's about it. If there's no motivation for going back, then why did you (as the player) feel it was worth a download?

As for Morrigan not saying anything, I can only assume that Claudia Black wasn't available to voice dialogue.

Modifié par Monica21, 31 janvier 2010 - 05:04 .

[JKJEDIKNIGHT]

How much dialogue did you people expect when you were going into a place over run with dark spawn? Do you see much dialogue in Denerim when you go there for the final battle? Didn't think so. Ostagar was similar to that battle in that there isn't time to chit chat about how horrible a time it was. If you bought it for some epic content then you were a fool. It was a $5 DLC, which was only designed to put the whole king's death at rest issue. Nothing more.

[Monica21]

I would consider the possibility of Cailan dumping Anora to be rather sensitive, not to mention his plans with Orlais. The only unfortunate part is that you can't act on them, but at that point, what really can be done with them? It's the one of two occasions where I felt truly sorry for Anora. Not to mention that unless Cailan has some bastard children running around, Eamon has no idea who's equipment is malfunctioning.

[le_cygne]

Monica21 wrote...

le_cygne wrote...

RtO, to me, missed out on the interesting stuff. Sure, there's a little back story, and that's nifty. But the player is never really an actor in the world. Basically, his role is to drop by and slaughter darkspawn without much motivation or any choice. 
.

Not sure about the highlighted part. You heard from the King's guard about Cailan's chest, his arms and armor and documents. Your character has a very personal connection to Ostagar. You character doesn't know what he or she will find, but that's about it. If there's no motivation for going back, then why did you (as the player) feel it was worth a download?

Sorry, I could've written that more articulately. How about "I love Dragon Age, and couldn't resist?" 

(We're in the spoiler forum now, so I'll be a bit more explicit, but I'll still try to keep the plot under wraps.)

What I meant is that I didn't feel as if I were particularly motivated to do more darkspawn killin' insofar as I didn't feel I was working towards an in character goal once I was already there. As a player, it's cool to revisit places like the Tower of Ishal, or to see what happened to Duncan, but after retrieving the letters I felt that I was more "just finishing the dungeon."  To my comment on choice, it wasn't the choice whether to return, but rather choices to make during the course of the mini-adventure.

The letters are a MacGuffin, and that's cool. As Colenda wrote, there could have been more plot-driven incentive. But ultimately, Soldier's Peak's a MacGuffin, too, as is Shale, if you won't be using her. They all have in-universe reasons that the warden could be interested in them, and that's good enough for me. But in the case of the other DLCs, the player uncovers a story where there's more than meets the eye. In Warden's Keep, for instance, the warden gets to learn a bit of history and then act on it. What is the worth of Soldier's Peak to the wardens, and at what cost? Was Sophia right or wrong? Who should I deal with? Are Avernus' methods sound, or worth the price? And with all of those choices comes the added advantage of being fleshed out by a party with its own opinions.

RtO, for me, (especially after the bridge) was more "Maker, the darkspawn are horrible! Kill them! (And take their stuff)," fleshed out with a little exposition from a few particular party members.

As for Morrigan not saying anything, I can only assume that Claudia Black wasn't available to voice dialogue.

I'm sure this, or the costs associated with something like this, is the case. That said, it's jarring to have most of your companions literally silent for the first time in the game. Save the major dialogue for the major players, of course, but revisiting my old characters, it was disappointing not to hear a few little comments from the rest of the cast. Warden's Keep had nice little touches like Dog growling at Sophia, The Secret Companion™ commenting on the strategic utility of the Keep, and so forth. They didn't dominate the DLC, but they were there. Basically, these were the little touches that made it, and the main game, feel alive for me. RtO had more of a "Bring Alistair (or you know who), Wynne (unless she's dead), and Dog (unless you didn't want him), or else!" feel for me.

Modifié par le_cygne, 31 janvier 2010 - 05:47 .

[Monica21]

le_cygne wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

le_cygne wrote...

RtO, to me, missed out on the interesting stuff. Sure, there's a little back story, and that's nifty. But the player is never really an actor in the world. Basically, his role is to drop by and slaughter darkspawn without much motivation or any choice. 
.

Not sure about the highlighted part. You heard from the King's guard about Cailan's chest, his arms and armor and documents. Your character has a very personal connection to Ostagar. You character doesn't know what he or she will find, but that's about it. If there's no motivation for going back, then why did you (as the player) feel it was worth a download?

Sorry, I could've written that more articulately. How about "I love Dragon Age, and couldn't resist?" 

(We're in the spoiler forum now, so I'll be a bit more explicit, but I'll still try to keep the plot under wraps.)

What I meant is that I didn't feel as if I were particularly motivated to do more darkspawn killin' insofar as I didn't feel I was working towards an in character goal once I was already there. As a player, it's cool to revisit places like the Tower of Ishal, or to see what happened to Duncan, but after retrieving the letters I felt that I was more "just finishing the dungeon."  To my comment on choice, it wasn't the choice whether to return, but rather choices to make during the course of the mini-adventure.

The letters are a MacGuffin, and that's cool. So's Soldier's Peak, and so's Shale, if you won't be using her. They all have in-universe reasons that the warden could be interested in them, and that's good enough for me. But in the case of the other DLCs, the player uncovers a story where there's more than meets the eye. In Warden's Keep, for instance, the warden gets to learn a bit of history and then act on it. What is the worth of Soldier's Peak to the wardens, and at what cost? Was Sophia right or wrong? Who should I deal with? Are Avernus' methods sound, or worth the price? And with all of those choices comes the added advantage of being fleshed out by a party with its own opinions.

RtO, for me, (especially after the bridge) was more "Maker, the darkspawn are horrible! Kill them! (And take their stuff)," fleshed out with a little exposition from a few particular party members.

As for Morrigan not saying anything, I can only assume that Claudia Black wasn't available to voice dialogue.

I'm sure this, or the costs associated with something like this, is the case. That said, it's jarring to have most of your companions literally silent for the first time in the game. Save the major dialogue for the major players, of course, but revisiting my old characters, it was disappointing not to hear a few little comments from the rest of the cast. Warden's Keep had nice little touches like Dog growling at Sophia, The Secret Companion™ commenting on the strategic utility of the Keep, and so forth. They didn't dominate the DLC, but they were there. Basically, these were the little touches that made it, and the main game, feel alive for me. RtO had more of a "Bring Alistair (or you know who), Wynne (unless she's dead), and Dog (unless you didn't want him), or else!" feel for me.

Well, I certainly won't (and can't) disagree with anything you said. After the bridge though, my motivation was killing the Darkspawn who put Cailan there, or at least the ones who left him there. Not sure how many people did this, but if you click on him after you find him Alistair says something about seeing him to the Maker after we've secured Ostagar.

I personally was very invested in this. I was actually teary at seeing Cailan and then through the flashbacks. As for my HNF, I approached it very personally. This was my king and no matter whether I agreed with him, he deserved better. I guess I found the emotional investments in what I found there to be more than worth the cost of the DLC.

[le_cygne]

JKJEDIKNIGHT wrote...

How much dialogue did you people expect when you were going into a place over run with dark spawn? Do you see much dialogue in Denerim when you go there for the final battle? Didn't think so. Ostagar was similar to that battle in that there isn't time to chit chat about how horrible a time it was. If you bought it for some epic content then you were a fool. It was a $5 DLC, which was only designed to put the whole king's death at rest issue. Nothing more.

Warden's Keep is an abandoned keep. If you expected combat, dialogue, or anything other than opening up an empty keep and moving in furniture, you were a fool.

Excepting RtO, every "dungeon" in the game after Lothering involves choices that impact the world in one way or another.

[le_cygne]

Monica21 wrote...

I personally was very invested in this. I was actually teary at seeing Cailan and then through the flashbacks. As for my HNF, I approached it very personally. This was my king and no matter whether I agreed with him, he deserved better. I guess I found the emotional investments in what I found there to be more than worth the cost of the DLC.

It never much resonated with my characters, for different reasons ... but as a player, those were by far my favorite parts, too. 

I've always felt poor Cailan is unfairly maligned, and seeing him that way...

[Monica21]

m14567 wrote...

Does anyone know if you can toughen up Alistair's personality via rto? I was hoping you might get a second chance. Unfortunately, I chose the wet noodle options when he met his sister and it was pretty early in the game that I can't see myself going back and playing from that point.

You can't. There's very little dialogue between Alistair and the PC except at the very beginning.

[Loerwyn]

RtO wasn't a disappointment IMHO, it was simply a missed opportunity and as such a bit underwhelming.

From a gameplay perspective (the minor viewpoint), the loot was so-so, albeit a bit poor if you didn't take bonuses into consideration. I felt Cailan's shield was a complete letdown, it should have been much better. Comparing it to Duncan's Shield (T6 DS vs T7CS), Duncan wins hands down. I've not really used it with Maric's Blade yet, though. The enemies were pushovers, even the Orange ogre at the end. I did RtO at level 11 and level 19, and both times it was simple. Also there's the Mage's chest - Aside from the fact it's blocked to most people, why is the loot different? It makes no sense!

From a story perspective? Underwhelming is probably a nice term.There were so many things BioWare could have done, and I think that maybe they shouldn't have done it how they did. There's not much dialogue from what I've heard of other people's reports (I've done it twice myself), and it's just a bit dull. Loghain, from what I've heard on this forum, seemed to go a bit loopy there and from my own experience, Wynne was completely different to her normal self. My Dwarf Noble seemed to be more upset by Cailan's death than my Human Noble did, which really confused me. I also noticed disapproval from Zevran in regards to how I handled Cailan's body - WHY? He hadn't said a single thing throughout.

So many missed opportunities, BioWare. I'm grateful for RtO, don't get me wrong, but I just wasn't overwhelmed by it. I think you should have doubled the price and added a whole load more story to it and maybe a few more areas. What happened to Duncan? Why is the door blocked in the tower - Surely it could be broken down? How did Flemeth really save us from the tower? Surely Alastair would say more than "Why, thank you!" for the Chalice and would pipe up when you find Duncan's Blades? He fought the Ogre they were sticking out of!

[dethtoemos]

le_cygne wrote...

Querne wrote...

Interesting content is, for me, new dialouge options, varying side quests (not like this chest/bag- horror), new party members or some interesting NPCs.

If there´s something I had really enough of in the basic game it´s KILLING DARKSPAWN and ARMOUR. Thank you very much.

I agree. To me, Warden's Keep was a pleasant surprise after some of the flak it received. Sure, it was small for the price, but it told a nice little story, had a few interesting NPCs, and allowed for a few nice comments and opinions from the various party members. Most importantly, it gave the PC some interesting questions to consider (was Sophia a hero, or was she a monster? Avernus?) and choices about how to deal with the Peak.

RtO, to me, missed out on the interesting stuff. Sure, there's a little back story, and that's nifty. But the player is never really an actor in the world. Basically, his role is to drop by and slaughter darkspawn without much motivation or any choice. And the fact that party members outside of the "Ostagar 3" don't have anything at all to say is quite disappointing. I understand that Alistair should have more to add than Shale. But Morrigan literally doesn't open her mouth once on the battlefield, now teeming with dark magic, where she met the warden and left her home?

On the other hand, what I don't care much about is loot, and what I don't like at all is really excellent loot that the player doesn't have to work for. Unfortunately, I know that people will keep spending real money for it, and that it's easier to make and sell a +12 sword (or a second chance to get the party member we shooed away at the beginning of the game--why remove consequences from the game?) versus an interesting little NPC or two, so I expect to see the difficulty curve will continue to drop for it..

I couldint have put it better myself, I enjoyed WK much more then RTO better backstory more choices but the way that you get Starfang it never felt deserved. It feels like your paying real money to recieve that item and you pretty much are, Blood Dragon Armor is the same deal. If your going to offer items like that in DLC you should make us earn them in game in high level dungeon or quests, IMO.

Modifié par dethtoemos, 01 février 2010 - 12:11 .

[Merci357]

While RtO was enjoyable, with obvious flaws, as many have pointed out, the worst part for me is it's disconnection from the main story.



Sure, a short cut scene for the chalice would be nice, it felt awkward that none spoke besides Alistair and Wynne; the "blocked" mage chest; it was a little bit on the easy side (especially for a post campaign party), no challenge at all.



However, the worst thing is, you can't act on things learnt in RtO - no way to confront Eamon about Cailan and Anora, even if you propose a marriage between Alistar and Anora at the Landsmeet. No way to talk to Loghain about the orlesian empress and Cailan.

That's the problem with DLC, Warden's Keep had no impact at all on the flow of the plot, RtO does neither, you, the player know events you can't share or tell, and no one recognises you did something in DLC, like it never happened.

Yes, im aware that's a nontrivial task to accomplish this, but as great as DA is, the DLC, with this obvious limitations, is just decent, nothing more. Good enough for me. But could be so much better.

[Dlokir]

Mlai00 wrote...

I liked it, though the loot is definitely more appropriate for early-game. I'd say... go back to Ostagar right after Lothering. Definitely before going to Warden's Keep; the WK loot is better.
...

Not first time I read the loot is bad but let see the details:
Armor set in RTO:
+4 Armor
+10 Mental Resistance
+15% Critical/Backstab Damage
+15% Physical Resistance
20% Chance to Dodge Attacks
Set: -25% Fatigue
Set: +5 Health Regen in Combat

Armor set in WK:
+1 Armor
+1 Combat Stamina Regeneration
+15% Critical/Backstab Damage
+10 Physical Resistance
+50 Stamina
+10% Fire Resistance
Set: -10% Fatigue
Set: +10 Health

So let see the RTO armor set :

• The 5 Health Regen and 20% chance to dodge attacks are huge,
• the -25% Fatigue is great,
• better armor, better physical resistance,
• and 10 mental resistance.

For that the WK armor only plus are:

• 10 fire resistance,
• 50 Stamina,
• 10 Health
• and 1 Stamina regen.

For me Calian set is a clear winner, even if the WK armor set keep some plus and isn't made useless by other armors.

But also RTO as another nice set, the Sword+Shield set that gives:

• 5 Armor
• +1 Armor
• Chance to Avoid Missile Attacks
• 11.20 Damages
• +0.75 Healing Regen in Combat
• +6 Damage vs. Darkspawn
• Weakens Nearby Darkspawn
• +0.75 Stamina Regen in Combat
• Set: +5 Damage
• Set: +5 Stamina Regen in Combat

You could compare with Starfang + random Warden Tower Shield:

• 6 Armor
• +3 Willpower
• +6 Defense
• +1 Combat Stamina Regeneration
• 11.90 Damages
• +3 Dexterity
• +3 Damage
• +2.5 Armor Penetration

See the RTO set gives more damages, yes more than Starfang with the shield, and a lot more stamina regen., plus some health regen. Not to mention that RTO set is against darkspawn. Sure WK items aren't a set and can be used with something else, but the shield is also random.

But RTO also offer a rather intersting 2H weapon when Starfang cannot be used to make 2 items and mauls have a STR factor of 1.25 instead of 1.1, plus a much better armor penetration. Anyway the point is that it is a nice 2H option with its attributes, could even worth for an Arcane Warrior:

• +4 Dexterity
• +100 Stamina
• Chance to stun

And you can add on top on that:

• The 2 Duncan weapons, they aren't the best dps arround but the dagger seems to be the third best dagger for dex and the sword has a nice +3 will +3 Cun and +2 stamina regen.
• There's also the staff which seems to me roughly as good than the staff in WK, offering a different option (more will and chance to paralyze instead of cold protection)
• The dog collar with +4 attack and 25% cold resistance.
• And the repeater glove which isn't that bad that it seems because it gives the possibility to have Rapid Aim through the gloves, interesting option to use with the best bow of the game that doesn't have Rapid Aim. A nice helm can already do that, but the gloves option is a new option.

When WC adds, Asturian's Might sword, Antique Warden Crossbow, and Robes of Avernus. The Robe is the big plus of WC and you only need kill Avernus. The staff isn't better, Crosswbows have flawed design, and the second sword is good but more for S&S.

Overall I'd say that RTO items are great and more original than basic dps score. Both DLC have a comparable set of items but RTO seems more original with some big health or endurance regen, the big endurance bonus of the maul, a new option for some Bows without Rapid Aim.

[Doyle41]

i'll let you know when the ps3 actually gets it. awakenings will be out before probably.

[Solica]

No I wasn't disappointed at all. I loved it. Wonderful. And it was cheap, IMO.



My mind sets off on a completely different track when I see threads like this:

(And for politeness sake I cut out a description of what. But it has something to do with gluttony.)

[JKJEDIKNIGHT]

Major gripe is just that the armor/weapons while original stats, are not original design. Only ones that are, are Duncan's Sword/Dagger. Maric's Blade, is just a recollored Star Fang, whish I think is just a retarded design. The King's Armor is the same exact design we've seen 15 times over with all the other Massive Armors (Warden Commander, Effort, Juggernaught), just gold. Obviously we knew that going into it because we saw Cailan wearing it, but they COULD have changed it up a bit by giving it a different helmet then Juggernaught's, which is just a dumb looking helmet. I much rather prefer the look of Duty. But of course Duty looks completely STUPID coupled with Cailan's gold armor. So ya, only things good look wise to me in this was Duncan's sword lol.

[bucca09]

The only gripe I have is that I went to Redcliffe (for the first time) after RtO. I have Alistair wearing the newly recovered royal armor and weapon set. Does anybody, including Teagan, say anything? Nnnnnnooooooooo! It doesn't even get referenced (at least not so far). That's what I don't like... makes as much sense as when Lord Harrowmont gives you a mage staff.

(yes, I know, he never wields it, but still...)

[DeathWyrmNexus]

I was a bit underwhelmed. I don't feel cheated, I just don't feel satisfied. If that makes any sense. The gear was pretty cool though I am rather annoyed that I had to convert it from Red Steel and it didn't automatically upgrade for me like Duncan's swords did...



I also found that I had no use for some of it beyond a collector's item. Either way, like I said, I don't feel cheated but I do feel like there could have been a bit more intensity to the fights. Oh well. I'll live.