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[Rage Machine]

Seriously... nightmare mode and im not having enough variation in my tactics. Set up my party very carefully to interact with one another and cast spell combos to really bring the heat and now its not even really that big of a challenge. Any deaths are simply an accident, other than that i blow through just about everything. Even when it comes to the hardest bosses all they really need to be beaten is some slight change the armor types and that is it. 

Anyone else agree? I dont need something harder, where they hit harder, i need some smarter enemies. 

Maybe there should be a DLC that isnt delayed for an eternity that puts you in an Arena or something where its full 4 x 4 parties with full sets of skills and tactics. The ogre boss in RTO was no different from any other boss, i expected something more considering the emotional story behind it. 

Modifié par Rage Machine, 31 janvier 2010 - 11:17 .

[Thallet]

I do agree that 4 x 4 party action would be a lot of fun. We got a brief taste of that in the main game and that was a blast for me.



I think that a lot of us though have played through so many times now that certainly we feel that the game is too easy, but remembering my first playthrough I for one didn't feel it was too easy.

[SMD010]

What do you expect? A game mode where enemies have god mode on? If you really think its to easy try soloing the game or something or search some mods witch make enemies harder.

[Kaoschizm]

Unbind pause and play the entire game in real time, if that doesn't work then solo, if that doesn't work then solo naked, if that's still too easy then move to Korea and become a pro-gamer.

[Upper_Krust]

Rage Machine wrote...

Seriously... nightmare mode and im not having enough variation in my tactics. Set up my party very carefully to interact with one another and cast spell combos to really bring the heat and now its not even really that big of a challenge. Any deaths are simply an accident, other than that i blow through just about everything. Even when it comes to the hardest bosses all they really need to be beaten is some slight change the armor types and that is it. 

Anyone else agree? I dont need something harder, where they hit harder, i need some smarter enemies. 

I totally agree. Which is why I have been posting in the New Creatures thread a complete revamp of the monsters and/or the tactics they use. My goal is to make every monster type feel different to fight. I think I have achieved that, but take a look for yourself and judge.

I have already revised the Darkspawn and Undead. I really hope Bioware takes a look and uses the ideas I'm posting*.

*or offers me a job.

Darkspawn revision...

http://social.biowar...index/579465/13

Undead revision...

http://social.biowar...index/579465/14

I'll get to revisions of Demons, Golems and Beasts later this week.

Maybe there should be a DLC that isnt delayed for an eternity that puts you in an Arena or something where its full 4 x 4 parties with full sets of skills and tactics. The ogre boss in RTO was no different from any other boss, i expected something more considering the emotional story behind it. 

I certainly think DLC SHOULD be more difficult (minute for minute) than the full game. Return to Ostagar is clearly far too easy a challenge.

[Some Dude On The Internet]

Interestingly, for every "Way too easy" thread, there's also a "Way too hard" thread... obviously there's a learning curve to the game if you are used to certain types of shooters or MMO's - but having said that, it's OK to be creative with your playing style to artificially impose a higher difficulty level. For example:



- Nude playthrough (No armor except boots / helmets)

- No potions allowed

- Stupid tactics (Set tanks to run away and weakest chars to rush in blindly)



There's LOTS of ways to challenge yourself if the base game is too easy...

[Elanareon]

trY pre patched nightmare with bring a friend mod. Or try the nightmare mod plus mod

[Upper_Krust]

Some Dude On The Internet wrote...

Interestingly, for every "Way too easy" thread, there's also a "Way too hard" thread... obviously there's a learning curve to the game if you are used to certain types of shooters or MMO's - but having said that, it's OK to be creative with your playing style to artificially impose a higher difficulty level. For example:

The problem with Dragon Age though is that once you 'figure it out' you can use one set of tactics for every single encounter and win. Thus combat becomes irrelevant, or worse, repetitive and boring. This problem stems from virtually all enemies attacking in the same manner, having the same tactics and defenses.

This isn't a question of statistical differences. Simply increasing the difficulty won't change an enemies, or a players tactics, and once you have a set of winning tactics you can pwn in any battle regardless of difficulty, as long as its statistically beatable.

But this isn't an issue of difficulty, as much as its an issue of forcing players to outthink the AI in any given encounter. If the AI only attacks in one or two predictable ways then players won't have to think, thus winning a battle becomes less rewarding.

The solution to this is crystal clear. Give each enemy its own tactical identity. For instance...

- Have Hurlocks fight in tight formation (like a Spartan Phalanx), with each adjacent ally giving a bonus to armor/defense and resistances.

Tactically then what you want to try and do is divide and conquer, try and split them up (wall based spells?), knock them down (fireballs?)

- Have Shrieks swarm single enemies (then move on to the next), with a bonus to attack/damage for each Shriek adjacent to the enemy.

Tactically you want to keep your heroes from being surrounded by too many at once, either having your heroes fight back to back/side by side or place them in corners or doorways.

- Have Rage Demons get stronger the lower their health gets.

Tactically you want to concentrate all attacks on Rage Demons to get them out of the way and limit the amount of time they have at their maximum strength.

- Add a standard bearer or musician to a group of Skeletons that give either a bonus to defense/armor (while the flag still flies) or a bonus to attack/damage (while the drum still beats).

Tactically then it benefits the player to target the standard bearer/musician first. 

I've already outlined dozens of ways of doing this (in the links in my previous post).

- Nude playthrough (No armor except boots / helmets)
- No potions allowed
- Stupid tactics (Set tanks to run away and weakest chars to rush in blindly)

There's LOTS of ways to challenge yourself if the base game is too easy...

...you forgot...

- Blindfold

But seriously, I don't think this sort of 'limit yourself' approach is the solution to the problem at hand.

Modifié par Upper_Krust, 31 janvier 2010 - 03:56 .

[Some Dude On The Internet]

Upper_Krust wrote...

...The problem with Dragon Age though is that once you 'figure it out' you can use one set of tactics for every single encounter and win. Thus combat becomes irrelevant, or worse, repetitive and boring. This problem stems from virtually all enemies attacking in the same manner, having the same tactics and defenses....

I'll give you hurlocks and genlocks, essentially large and small grunts, no variety there - but at least from what I have seen, Spiders, Ogres, Shreks, Emissaries, Wolves, Assasains, Mabaris, etc. all have distinctive attacks as far has who they target and how.

I recall seeing an area in Orzammar where Spiders and Darkspawn were attacking each other... you could certainly play that several different ways - charge in and get aggro from both parties, wait until one side or another has an advantage and go after the weaker... whatever you like.

I would think there is going to be an optimum mix of party, equipment, and tactics that will give you the best overall chances of winning an encounter - but even at that you can't really say that you would approach every battle with the same tactics and expect the same results...

[StuartMarshall]

Solo it on nightmare as a rogue. There's a challenge.

[Rage Machine]

I agree that simply having non-plate wearers tank for the sake of them being easier to kill is just limited myself, as well as no potions... I think i will try outfitting my party as self sufficient all combat group, no mages. Maybe that will give me something more of a challenge. The problem is combat is boring and repetitive once you learn exactly how to outfit your party. There really is nothing really handing my ass to me like there usually is so i have an obstacle to overcome, the enemy hardness curve is fairly linear, and for the most part flat.

And when i say challenge i mean tactically variating. The bosses are simply too easy, i wish they had a *Heroic Nightmare* or something like that to really turn up the way the enemies fight. Hopefully we will see an introduction to more AI in the expansion pack. If not, then i wont buy it. And i wont buy it because i learned my lesson with fable II and the difficulty that had (none). 

And also, in RtO, i noticed that the large hordes of darkspawn where i smiled and ran into hoping i would have to seriously kill all of them; turned out to be only one hit enemies?? Why the hell on nightmare mode do you even put these there? 

Modifié par Rage Machine, 31 janvier 2010 - 08:11 .

[Upper_Krust]

distinguetraces wrote...

Rage Machine wrote...
Set up my party very carefully to interact with one another and cast spell combos

Here is your problem.

Playing with one mage makes Nightmare mode like Normal mode.

Playing with more than one mage is very, very easy.

Thats not a 'problem' its a feature of the game, that you can set up and use multiple mages.

It seems to me you are saying its okay for the game to punish smart players by making all the fights tedious and boring.

If I set my party up carefully I want to be rewarded, not punished.

Yes, mages are a tad overpowered. But there are no enemies in the game that challenge mages. There need to be far more enemies that have magic affect them differently. When I get around to my revision of Golems, expect some interesting ideas in this regard. Although it wouldn't necessarily need to be golems, enemies could have shields that affect magic, or certain places could affect magic. The mage shouldn't always be the star.

[Duffed]

Just wanna say for us gamers who enjoy the tactical challenge of RPG's; it's extremely disappointing to see that phased out in favor of better graphics & cooler extras... I would much rather have an ugly game that is tactically challenging & therefore rewarding than a beautiful game that i go through like a hot knife through butter. While the 1st playthrough was challenging, every subsequent ride was way too smooth. I did not get fable 2 because of this issue, and if there is a DOA 2 with this same lack of challenge i won't be getting that.

[Duffed]

ps overall disappointed in RTO expansion, I didn't even gain a lvl during it

[Duffed]

and there should be a way to apply these computer mods to the consoles, i love the new tactics posted and don't understand why it's not a regular part of bioware's game builds... not tryin to diss you guyz cuz i luv ya, but come on yall, give me something that will frustrate me a bit more

[Upper_Krust]

Some Dude On The Internet wrote...

I'll give you hurlocks and genlocks, essentially large and small grunts, no variety there -

Without a combat log its difficult to gauge the percentage of opponents you face. I'd lump them into the following categories, to which I have added my vague guesses as to what percentage of the monsters you face in the game.

1. Basic Enemy (about 66%)

Genlocks, Hurlocks, Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Skeletons, Shrieks, Ghosts, Wyrmlings, Deepstalkers, Revenants (even though they are cool because they are so tough), Brontos, Abominations, Non-spellcasting Demons

2. Basic Enemy Archer (about 15%)

Genlocks, Hurlocks, Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Skeletons.

3. Spellcasters (about 10%)

Emissaries, Mages, Spellcasting Demons

4. Beasts with Overwhelm (about 4%)

Mabari, Wolves, Bears, Spiders (IIRC), Drakes, Werewolves

5. Large Monsters with knockdown and ranged attack (about 4%)

Golems, Wyld Sylvans, Dragons, Ogres

6. Assassins (seen about 4-5 times in the whole game; about 0.5%)

Various races.

7. Big Bosses (about 0.5%)

High Dragons, Broodmother

Apart from the big bosses, and probably, "kill the mages first", theres no real difference in how you approach combat with virtually all the monsters in the game.

but at least from what I have seen, Spiders, Ogres, Shreks, Emissaries, Wolves, Assasains, Mabaris, etc. all have distinctive attacks as far has who they target and how

.

See above.

I recall seeing an area in Orzammar where Spiders and Darkspawn were attacking each other... you could certainly play that several different ways - charge in and get aggro from both parties, wait until one side or another has an advantage and go after the weaker... whatever you like.

One instance in the game.

I would think there is going to be an optimum mix of party, equipment, and tactics that will give you the best overall chances of winning an encounter - but even at that you can't really say that you would approach every battle with the same tactics and expect the same results...

My point is, when you have those optimum tactics (and these can be really simple), you never need to change them. What works good enough in one battle will work good enough the next hundred battles. You never really need to change your tactics, because the monsters never force you to change your tactics.

[kosarev]

Try bugged Redcliffe assault on nighmare mode without mages. That was a freaking challenge, 2 hours reloading and pausing game every 5 secs (only my char survived, out of health poultices and with less than 10% health).

True that the rest of the game is too easy. But BG and others were too once you now the proper builds and tactics. Modding was what bringed the difficulty to it.

[Upper_Krust]

Rage Machine wrote...

I agree that simply having non-plate wearers tank for the sake of them being easier to kill is just limited myself, as well as no potions... I think i will try outfitting my party as self sufficient all combat group, no mages. Maybe that will give me something more of a challenge. The problem is combat is boring and repetitive once you learn exactly how to outfit your party. There really is nothing really handing my ass to me like there usually is so i have an obstacle to overcome, the enemy hardness curve is fairly linear, and for the most part flat.

 
I don't remember losing more than about 20-30 fights in the entire game (first playthrough) and I never paused the game once* (playing on 360, I didn't even know you could pause and change character until I came to these forums after I had finished my first playthrough).

*Other than if I was using a potion/talent on the dial menu wherein its an automatic pause.

And when i say challenge i mean tactically variating. The bosses are simply too easy, i wish they had a *Heroic Nightmare* or something like that to really turn up the way the enemies fight.

I don't think increasing difficulty levels will solve any problems. More likely they will just narrow the players own tactics down a more limited path.

Hopefully we will see an introduction to more AI in the expansion pack. If not, then i wont buy it. And i wont buy it because i learned my lesson with fable II and the difficulty that had (none). 

I am definately going to buy Awakening, but after that there will be NO EXCUSES for Bioware in future expansions not to implement a full tactical overhaul of the game. I think they have been given enough feedback on the matter to know combat gets repetitive.

I've already given them a headstart (please steal my ideas Bioware) with regards how monster tactics could be EASILY changed.

And also, in RtO, i noticed that the large hordes of darkspawn where i smiled and ran into hoping i would have to seriously kill all of them; turned out to be only one hit enemies?? Why the hell on nightmare mode do you even put these there? 

I think 1-2 hit kill enemies have their place, but even using RtO as a microcosm of the game in general, they are used FAR too frequently and not in large enough numbers to be remotely challenging.

Someone else in a different thread pointed out that unlike Baldur's Gate 2, there are no enemy parties in the game, and these were amongst the best challenges in that game.

[Duffed]

i don't want to have to handicap myself to make a game harder, i want to giv it my best and still get smacked around a bit...

[Upper_Krust]

Duffed wrote...

and there should be a way to apply these computer mods to the consoles, i love the new tactics posted and don't understand why it's not a regular part of bioware's game builds... not tryin to diss you guyz cuz i luv ya, but come on yall, give me something that will frustrate me a bit more

Exactly. I'm a fan of Bioware and I plan on getting the DLC (when I have some free time) and Awakening. But at the same time I am sure they value constructive criticism, and I think the enemies (specifically the variety of encounters and the difference between enemies) really need a rethink.

[simplificationizer]

What I did in BG2 to keep the game challenging was to come up with theme parties. One of my favourites was a party that did not use any magic items (except for the weapons created by the Enchanted Weapon spell); forced me to use spells that I'd never cast before. Made it all the way to the ravager but got stuck there due to no +4 weapons.



One of the problems with DA is the mage class, which is too strong. I know playing without one is boring, but maybe you can limit your spell selection to only one school (other than spirit ), such as only primal spells (and mage and spec spells obviously).



Or if you want a real nightmare, go for a beastmaster party: ranger, dog, and morrigan always in animal form .

[SuperMedbh]

Not everyone is a god-like gamer, you all should realize. This was really my first game like this (I'd played a bit of Warhammer 40K before, but that was it). So, I got slaughtered on Normal on my first run, then turned it down to Easy and had a much better time of it. After that, I've been playing on Normal, and I find it challenging enough. Basically, if I use tactics, I don't get killed. But I do have to use tactics-- I can't just waltz into a room and start swinging, at least not on the tougher encounters.



I don't like dying all the time. It breaks me out of immersion. And I also like enough leeway so I don't have to optimize everything in order to win. I want to be able to use Shapeshifter for Morrigan, even though it stinks as an ability. Narrative speaking, she's a shapeshifter, so I try to make her use that ability on a regular basis. My city elf uses up a ring slot with her non-magical wedding ring. And so on.



I'm not saying that the game shouldn't cater to you uber gamers as well. If naked Nightmare is still too easy for you, perhaps Bioware can make that level even harder. But I paid good money for my game, too, and I would like to be able to play it.

[Upper_Krust]

Duffed wrote...

i don't want to have to handicap myself to make a game harder, i want to giv it my best and still get smacked around a bit...

Agreed, and there are only two ways of doing that without making it statistically unfair.

1. Surprise Players, show them a new monster thats got some sort of tactical advantage (not just more health and dealing more damage) that beats them until they figure it out.

e.g. In the New Creatures thread I suggested an undead monster called the Deathless which 'jumps' into any remaining allies. So imagine a monster like the Hurlock General, backed by 2-3 hurlocks and 2-3 hurlock archers. But if you kill him before killing all the others, you only turn a remaining ally into another Hurlock General.

e.g. Or another idea I posted was called the Bogeyman. Basically think of a monster like a ghost, except its unbeatable. Nothing can hurt it. However, once you defeat all its allies, the Bogeyman automatically fades away.

2. Challenge Players, with the variety of monsters you throw at them, whose tactics compliment one another (just like the heroes).

e.g. I posted in my revamp of Shrieks that they should swarm one target and gain a large attack/damage bonus for each shriek adjacent to the target. Now imagine we introduce another enemy (Shriek Emissary?) who can teleport one of your characters to the other end of the battlefield where they are all alone and easy prey?

e.g. How about a crystalline Lyrium Golem that acts like a magnifying glass for spells cast by the owner of its control rod. Worse yet, the owner of the rod can cast their spells from where the Lyrium Golem is standing, while they hide safely on the other side of the battlefield.