109 réponses à ce sujet

[kosarev]

Main problem is the mages and unlimited spells they can use. In BG, with limited spells/day, and no many healing poultices each fight had a limited amount of heals you could have (in my case, all of Jaheiras spells were healing except one entangling and my paladins heals). Limiting manaand health poultices would make some fights on nightmare nearly impossible, as they should be (high dragon or archdemon).

[Upper_Krust]

SuperMedbh wrote...

Not everyone is a god-like gamer, you all should realize. This was really my first game like this (I'd played a bit of Warhammer 40K before, but that was it).

Totally agree. This was the first game of its type (tactical RPG) I had played...although in fairness I do roleplay (D&D) and I am what you would call a 'tactical gamer' so that aspect came easy to me.

So, I got slaughtered on Normal on my first run, then turned it down to Easy and had a much better time of it. After that, I've been playing on Normal, and I find it challenging enough. Basically, if I use tactics, I don't get killed. But I do have to use tactics-- I can't just waltz into a room and start swinging, at least not on the tougher encounters.

What I have found, from personal play and watching various youtube clips is that people will settle into their own tactics after finding what works once, and they could be using the same tactics for the next 100 battles, because you won't have to change them to win.

I really enjoyed the youtube playthrough of Toegoff, and it was very interesting to see that once he got cone of cold it was a major part of his tactics in about 95% of encounters after that.

I don't like dying all the time. It breaks me out of immersion.

The flipside to that is however, if you are not challenged, then the reward for success is reduced.

And I also like enough leeway so I don't have to optimize everything in order to win.

Understandable.

I want to be able to use Shapeshifter for Morrigan, even though it stinks as an ability. Narrative speaking, she's a shapeshifter, so I try to make her use that ability on a regular basis. My city elf uses up a ring slot with her non-magical wedding ring. And so on.

Thats pretty cool, and its whats great about Dragon Age. Its also why I am suggesting we do not make the game statistically harder.

I'm not saying that the game shouldn't cater to you uber gamers as well. If naked Nightmare is still too easy for you, perhaps Bioware can make that level even harder. But I paid good money for my game, too, and I would like to be able to play it.

My goal is to increase the challenge laterally, rather than increase the statistical difficulty.

So a Hurlock will still take the same number of hits to defeat (circumstances pending), simply that it will have a set of tactics (Phalanx formation - like the spartans) that will give it a temporary advantage that lasts until you out-think it (by breaking their formation and scattering them). So if you are lazy and just run in to melee them, they are much more difficult than if you break their formation first.

[SuperMedbh]

Upper_Krust wrote...





My goal is to increase the challenge laterally, rather than increase the statistical difficulty.



So a Hurlock will still take the same number of hits to defeat (circumstances pending), simply that it will have a set of tactics (Phalanx formation - like the spartans) that will give it a temporary advantage that lasts until you out-think it (by breaking their formation and scattering them). So if you are lazy and just run in to melee them, they are much more difficult than if you break their formation first.

Okies, I get what you're saying now. And I agree. In a way, they do this a bit from Easy to Normal, because there are some tactical differences with friendly fire. On easy, one can fireball away with impunity, on Normal said technique can be deadly. And on Hard, it's full effect.



I could be wrong, but the AI does seem a tad smarter, as well. Without using spoilers, there seemed to be some points in the a few boss battles in which the boss would target characters not just for doing damage but for doing other things that were needed (thinking of the final Deep Roads battle here). I don't remember seeing that on Easy. But there certainly weren't any Darkspawn phalanxes (you made me google that one See, videogames do teach you something!)

[Joshd21]

Rage Machine wrote...

Seriously... nightmare mode and im not having enough variation in my tactics. Set up my party very carefully to interact with one another and cast spell combos to really bring the heat and now its not even really that big of a challenge. Any deaths are simply an accident, other than that i blow through just about everything. Even when it comes to the hardest bosses all they really need to be beaten is some slight change the armor types and that is it. 

Anyone else agree? I dont need something harder, where they hit harder, i need some smarter enemies. 

Maybe there should be a DLC that isnt delayed for an eternity that puts you in an Arena or something where its full 4 x 4 parties with full sets of skills and tactics. The ogre boss in RTO was no different from any other boss, i expected something more considering the emotional story behind it. 

You know there used to be this kind of arugment back in World of Warcraft. They called them elitest would complain that the game is too easy, however may I remind you that this game is an RPG adventure. Most of the excitment can not be found in the fighting

However the actual digloge in why your fighting. This is not a strickly combat game, though first game of it's kind that I know of to place different tatics i.e. archers a distance away behind wooden table, that makes you think. The fun in this game is that

It has choices, great storyline, and amazing graphic's that rival any other video game on the market. That's the foundation the game was built upon, if you find nightmare too easy. Simply remove your "armor" aka "Gear" instide the game

Fight bare handed, instead of four companions, takes two...or take one. This game has too many amazing features for Bioware to spend resoucres trying to crank up the combat to make it easier for you to get killed for you to hit the loading screen once you die

While i play on easy, because expect for a few boss fights. Your fighting the same creatures, doesn't it really matter how you kill them. Not to me, it just matters whats the motive behind you. Though if your looking for a hard combat game. I don't believe dragon age was designed to appeal to the intense eltiest interest

[wonko33]

Just do a naked run, party members can only have handheld weapons, nothing else. Hey if it's still boring at least the screenshots will be a hoot!

[Kaoschizm]

I agree with the people that are saying that increasing the numbers alone would not make the game more fun. So far the only difference I've found playing on nightmare versus normal is that nightmare takes more time, the actual strategy you're using is exactly the same you just have to be more meticulous with it and make sure you micromanage every party member to execute it perfectly, rather than just letting them charge in and use tactics to do approximately what you want.

[Sylixe]

SMD010 wrote...

What do you expect? A game mode where enemies have god mode on? If you really think its to easy try soloing the game or something or search some mods witch make enemies harder.

Actually i would imagine an intelligent person expects a game where i cannot setup the AI for my group and watch it beat the in game AI by itself on hard. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

It would be nice if different types of enemies required different sorts of tactics, but then we'd need a combat log so we'd be able to learn what worked and what didn't.

Given that the game was specifically designed to prevent us from learning how it worked, it had to avoid being difficult.

[LolaRuns]

Why not do a rogue based run through based on traps? It's slightly different than mages, but also different from just taking tanks and blindly wailing.

[RangerSG]

You know, for every one of these threads I see (which are usually done by people who've run through the game several times and can anticipate the encounters now), I see another thread where someone is screaming the game is too hard.



The bottom line is, whatever one thinks about the balance between classes, the overall difficulty level seems to be about right at least on normal for a first timer. I do agree that the AI for hard and nightmare could be more intelligent. But I don't think the answer is increasing numbers. Generally speaking, if you can plow through 5 grunts, you can plow through 8, especially when they aren't shielding mages.

[Upper_Krust]

kosarev wrote...

Main problem is the mages and unlimited spells they can use. In BG, with limited spells/day, and no many healing poultices each fight had a limited amount of heals you could have (in my case, all of Jaheiras spells were healing except one entangling and my paladins heals). Limiting manaand health poultices would make some fights on nightmare nearly impossible, as they should be (high dragon or archdemon).

I was thinking that maybe each time you used a health potion or lyrium potion that you would partly become addicted to it and its effects would be lessened each time you took another one.

Say maybe 2% (cumulatively) less effective each time you take one.

I was also thinking that you should maybe only be able to equip a single poison on a weapon at a time, as well as only using one salve at a time.

[Lord Phoebus]

SuperMedbh wrote...

I could be wrong, but the AI does seem a tad smarter, as well. Without using spoilers, there seemed to be some points in the a few boss battles in which the boss would target characters not just for doing damage but for doing other things that were needed (thinking of the final Deep Roads battle here). I don't remember seeing that on Easy. But there certainly weren't any Darkspawn phalanxes (you made me google that one See, videogames do teach you something!)

The AI is more likely to use its good abilities on higher difficulty levels, but the AI never uses great abilities (e.g. the AI will never use spell combos or cast mana clash on your casters).

I think I would actually like the darkspawn to be in a phalanx.  It would make targeting my magical artillery all that easier.  If you think about the battle at Ostagar, all it would have taken was a few fireballs from the casters on either side to reduce the other side to ash the way they were grouped together.  A loose formation should be the kind of formation favored by troops on a battlefield where there is magic.

I like that Bioware tried to make the game more difficult but I don't like how they did it.  They should have used a more balanced rule set and used AI to create the difficulty instead of using enemy number and vital statistics.  As a result of the design choices they made, once you've figured out how to beat the game on one difficulty setting you could beat it on all settings with at best a marginal increase in difficulty.

[NyackDarkSoul]

Ok, having read this and numerous other posts I think there is a general consensus despite the arguments presented. The consensus finds itself in that the game IS NOT too easy - it just is not smart enough. Differences between easy and nightmare should all relate to increased AI intelligence and not statistical improvements.

My first playthrough was on normal, and I found it difficult - but that was part of the challenge and the learning curve - I didn't know how the party worked together and I left default tactics. On Hard I set tactics and micromanaged a little. On Nightmare I disabled all tactics and every action was commanded with pin point precision. Due to having learnt how to play like this through a couple of playthroughs, Nightmare was easier than the normal run.

EDIT: Oh and one thing that I know pisses off a lot of people and it does me too.  WHY THE FRACK did they make it so a measly genlock can push your shield wall'ed tank out of a doorway, but a High Dragon can't knock you back.  Seriously.

So conclusion:
Bioware need to redesign their AI. It would be nice to have a Shriek jump you, use his cooldown abilities, drop a movement impairing trap, then run out of line of sight, waiting for the emissary to heal him before re-stealthing and repeating it or another series of actions based on what my party is doing.

Edit (spoiler removed) Also they seriously need to implement enemy parties that aggro as a group. Using a stealthed character, arrow of slaying and line of sight  (edited bit) ...

Modifié par NyackDarkSoul, 01 février 2010 - 12:15 .

[Fishy]

Rage Machine wrote...

Seriously... nightmare mode and im not having enough variation in my tactics. Set up my party very carefully to interact with one another and cast spell combos to really bring the heat and now its not even really that big of a challenge. Any deaths are simply an accident, other than that i blow through just about everything. Even when it comes to the hardest bosses all they really need to be beaten is some slight change the armor types and that is it. 

Anyone else agree? I dont need something harder, where they hit harder, i need some smarter enemies. 

Maybe there should be a DLC that isnt delayed for an eternity that puts you in an Arena or something where its full 4 x 4 parties with full sets of skills and tactics. The ogre boss in RTO was no different from any other boss, i expected something more considering the emotional story behind it. 

Smarter ennemy ... You realize  that IN any game .. whatever the game is .. It's a script that tell the creature what to do based of your action? It's not AI.Sheesh.

A tougher boss .. Usually mean a very scrited fight with a boss that hit stronger and  tougher to kill .For Instance in Shooter..You can stand right by the side of n ennemy and shoot him like a rag doll  while he's busy to killsome of your teamates hiding behind  some cover 100 meter away and shooting him with a pistol.

The whole thing's smarter ennemy does not exist..Unless they make a script with 1 billions of possibilities to each of your action and always picking the best option avaiable at the speed of light... Ai in very game will always be *stupid* by human stanrd .Until someone create Ai and i hope it's never happens.

[NyackDarkSoul]

Stop being pedantic, we are talking about AI in the context of a game, hence referring to Game Artificial Intelligence. Yes it is a series of algorythms, but you know what we are referring to. Im sure any developer reading this will be able to interpret what we mean when we say AI, like 100,000,000 other forum posters meant when they used the term AI. Of course we don't mean true AI, because that doesnt exist yet.



P.S.

Game AI:

"Game artificial intelligence refers to techniques used in computer and video games to produce the illusion of intelligence in the behavior of non-player characters (NPCs)."

[Upper_Krust]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

The AI is more likely to use its good abilities on higher difficulty levels, but the AI never uses great abilities (e.g. the AI will never use spell combos or cast mana clash on your casters).

Thats because such things are unbalanced.

I think I would actually like the darkspawn to be in a phalanx.  It would make targeting my magical artillery all that easier.  If you think about the battle at Ostagar, all it would have taken was a few fireballs from the casters on either side to reduce the other side to ash the way they were grouped together.  A loose formation should be the kind of formation favored by troops on a battlefield where there is magic.

Unless of course a phalanx grants better defense/armour and resistances to those protected by it.

I like that Bioware tried to make the game more difficult but I don't like how they did it.  They should have used a more balanced rule set and used AI to create the difficulty instead of using enemy number and vital statistics.  As a result of the design choices they made, once you've figured out how to beat the game on one difficulty setting you could beat it on all settings with at best a marginal increase in difficulty.

Agreed.

[Upper_Krust]

SuperMedbh wrote...

Okies, I get what you're saying now. And I agree. In a way, they do this a bit from Easy to Normal, because there are some tactical differences with friendly fire. On easy, one can fireball away with impunity, on Normal said technique can be deadly. And on Hard, it's full effect.

The only time I ever got into trouble with friendly fire was when I let spellcasters operate under their own volition (using the pre-set tactics)..."Morrigan, stop cone of colding me!"

I could be wrong, but the AI does seem a tad smarter, as well. Without using spoilers, there seemed to be some points in the a few boss battles in which the boss would target characters not just for doing damage but for doing other things that were needed (thinking of the final Deep Roads battle here). I don't remember seeing that on Easy. But there certainly weren't any Darkspawn phalanxes (you made me google that one See, videogames do teach you something!)

I posted in the New Creatures forum a video clip on youtube I found of God of War, where they have skeletons in a phalanx...

Modifié par Upper_Krust, 01 février 2010 - 12:48 .

[Upper_Krust]

Suprez30 wrote...

Smarter ennemy ... You realize  that IN any game .. whatever the game is .. It's a script that tell the creature what to do based of your action? It's not AI.Sheesh.

A tougher boss .. Usually mean a very scrited fight with a boss that hit stronger and  tougher to kill .For Instance in Shooter..You can stand right by the side of n ennemy and shoot him like a rag doll  while he's busy to killsome of your teamates hiding behind  some cover 100 meter away and shooting him with a pistol.

The whole thing's smarter ennemy does not exist..Unless they make a script with 1 billions of possibilities to each of your action and always picking the best option avaiable at the speed of light... Ai in very game will always be *stupid* by human stanrd .Until someone create Ai and i hope it's never happens.

I think with regards what we are suggesting with Dragon Age, is more to do with an enemies tactical identity.

Instead of a Hurlock fighting the same as a Skeleton, or a Genlock, or a Human, or a Werewolf, or any number of other monsters that all fight the same way, we make each monster attack using a different set of tactics. When the monsters use different tactics, then it forces the player to have to think creatively about how they can best counter the enemies tactics. This creates a more varied, challenging and ultimately rewarding experience.

[wowpwnslol]

Dragon Age AI is awful. It's hilarious when enemy caster uses his best spells with long cooldowns on force fielded target. That's some pro programming right there.

[Erakleitos]

In before manbearpig

[Tulaugu]

The bottom line is. Easy should be easy (or doable for the.... not so advanced gamers), normal should be normal (a nice way to play the game and enjoy the story in the way the storywriters meant it to be), hard should be hard and is not meant for beginning players. It's the level that is meant for the better than avarage players. Nightmare should be nightmare. Nearly impossible for beginning gamers and something where advanced gamers can really test their skills and have to pull out every tactic they know. Many here will remember Heart of Fury mode in Icewind Dale 1 and 2. THAT is what Nightmare should be.
We shouldn't go back and forth about that the game is too difficult or too easy. We should go discuss that the difficulty levels are flawed. Difficulty levels are meant to give every level of player the experience that they want.
Dragon Age is a marvelous game, just a little bit short and flawed difficultylevels.
Hopefully Bioware will fix that in an upcomming patch or with the launch of Awakening. Hopefully a Bioware moderator or game developer could comment in one of these topics with an official statement. That would solve a lot of discussions and topics that you can practically copy paste.

Regards

/Tulaugu

[simplificationizer]

By the way, I feel that one of the things that made BG2 great, especially on your first playthrough, was those enemies that made you crap your pants. I'm talking about liches, beholders, illithids, powerful mages etc. They made the world feel dangerous and more believable. DA feels too much like a game.

It's up to modders to do something about this, because BioWare will likely focus on DLC and bug-fixing.

Modifié par simplificationizer, 01 février 2010 - 01:33 .

[wowpwnslol]

simplificationizer wrote...

By the way, I feel that one of the things that made BG2 great, especially on your first playthrough, was those enemies that made you crap your pants. I'm talking about liches, beholders, illithids, powerful mages etc. They made the world feel dangerous and more believable. DA feels too much like a game.

It's up to modders to do something about this, because BioWare will likely focus on DLC and bug-fixing.

Yes, DA has a very simplistic magic system, so it is easier, since there are less spells and therefore less tactics one can utilize in any particular encounter.

In BG2 - there was about a dozen ways a mage could kill you, so it took a while for you to learn and counter all those moves effectively. The system was massive. In DA, there are a couple of dangerous spells an enemy caster will utilize, but they are easily worked around on the first playthrough. Most fights in BG2 were less forgiving also, a dragon could wipe you out in seconds if you weren't prepared correctly, but in DA, everything feels gimped by poor AI and limited magic system.

Although I despised massive immunities and instant death spells that ran rampant in BG2, I admit that compared to DA, it was more challenging and interesting.

[Akimb0]

The game was made easy for casual console players. Anyone whose played a real PC RPG before (BG, BG2 etc.) will find it a cake walk.

[wowpwnslol]

Akimb0 wrote...

The game was made easy for casual console players. Anyone whose played a real PC RPG before (BG, BG2 etc.) will find it a cake walk.

This guy nailed it 100%.