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[Ken Ueno]

Since the Prima guide was utterly useless for figuring out the endgame and there seems to be a great deal of confusion on the boards about how this works, I thought I'd spend some time running different teams through the endgame to see what variables are at work.  This is a work in progress, so as long as my edit-post privileges don't expire, I'll try to keep this updated. 


Space Battle                                                                                                                                                                             

If the Normandy is not properly upgraded, each missing upgrade will result in a team member death before you even start the assault on the Collector base.  If you take this team member with you during the oculus fight, or haven't recruited them, or they are dead, a different character dies instead.

-No Silaris Armor:  Oculus beams punch through; Jack dies.
-No Cyclonic Barrier Shielding:  Engine core overloads; Tali (or Legion or Thane) dies.
-No Thanix Cannon:  Normandy charges in with main guns;  Thane (or Garrus) dies.


Base Assault                                                                                                                                                                              

For the assault itself, there appear to be several types of characters that are required for the various key roles: 

-If the Tech Specialist is not one of those listed below, they will die at the first rendevous. 
-If the first Fireteam Leader is not a leadership character, the Tech Specialist will die at the first rendevous. 
-If the second Fireteam Leader is not a leadership character, they will die at the second rendevous. 
-If the Biotic Specialist is not powerful enough, one of your current squad members will be swarmed by seekers and die. 
-If the crew survivors are not escorted, they will die (any character can do this and the crew will live).
-If the Heat Exchanger valves are not opened in time, the Tech Specialist will die and you're forced to restart.
-If there aren't enough Combat Specialists left behind to hold the line while you fight the last boss, characters die
-Some characters are worth more as Combat Specialists than others; these point values are still being tested
-Characters with low point values are the first to die if there aren't sufficient points to hold the line

The following characters are the only ones that will succeed at their respective roles:

Tech Specialist
* Tali
* Legion

Leadership
* Miranda
* Jacob
* Garrus

Biotic Specialist
* Samara / Morinth
* Jack

Crew Escort
* Any loyal character

Combat Specialist
* Zaeed
* Grunt
* possibly other partial contributors


Disloyalty                                                                                                                                                                                    

Not having a character's loyalty has different effects depending on what you do with them:

-Having disloyal characters in the above key roles will result in deaths, regardless of whether they are suitable or not.
-A disloyal crew escort will sacrifice their lives to protect the crew (the crew will still make it).
-Disloyal characters don't get as many 'points' as loyal characters when holding the line and are more likely to die
-Keeping disloyal characters in your active squad prevents them from dying, except for...
-In the final boss fight, disloyal characters in your active squad will be crushed by rubble after the fight and die.
-If all team members are dead, Shepard misses the final jump and lets himself fall to his death rather than risk Joker's life.
-Note that with all 11 team members recruited, it's actually not possible to kill off all of them and get yourself killed.


Kidnapped Normandy Crew                                                                                                                                                    

If you do not go through the Omega-4 relay quickly enough after the Collectors kidnap the Normandy crew, the captured crew members will die off in the endgame.  Watching Kelly get liquified was particularly horrifying.  Who dies depends on how many missions you did after the Joker level (actual clock time does not affect the outcome, nor do relay jumps, fuel spent, or landing on Illium/Omega/Citadel/Tuchanka; any quest, big or small will count though):

-If you use the relay immediately, everybody survives; Horizon colonist gets liquified instead.
-If you do one mission, Kelly, engineer Daniels, mess sergeant Gardner, and half the crew dies.
-If you do two missions or more, everyone except Dr. Chakwas dies.


Legion's Loyalty Mission                                                                                                                                                         

Note that if you activate Legion and learn about his loyalty quest immediately after the Reaper IFF mission, the Collector attack / Joker level will wait for one extra mission before triggering.  This allows you to complete all the loyalty quests before the crew is even kidnapped (assuming you did the other ones already).


The X-Factor                                                                                                                                                                             

[Solved!  See base assault section.  Confirmed by Dusty Everman.]

Some people also report having trouble keeping a character (typically Mordin) alive at the end, where they must hold the line until Shepard kills the last boss.  This seems to be related to a choice or choices made during the final mission, as rearranging team roles from the same savegame will affect whether this mysterious death happens or not.

Modifié par Ken Ueno, 13 février 2010 - 11:14 .

[Shady314]

I think if you bring non-loyal team mates they die in the rubble after beating the human reaper but can't test that yet because my whole team is loyal.



Also want to say if you bring Miranda on your squad for last leg of the mission and choose to blow up the base she tells the Illusive Man to get bent basically and quits Cerberus. I had her loyal and was romancing her so I don't know what happens if she lacks loyalty.



It'd be awesome if a disloyal Miranda turned on you there but it's doubtful.

[Branclem]

Thanks for this topic. It pretty much confirms what I knew already, but it's nice to have everything clean and consolidated when so many different theories are running around on these forums.



I'm not sure whether the escort needs to be loyal or not, you should try sending someone disloyal if you haven't already. Also, the Mordin/Legion thing at the end could definitely use confirmation. Upgrades are definitely possible, or maybe time taken on the boss is the key factor?

[xMister Vx]

I'd say that Mordin survives 100% if you put him on Escort (loyal and upgraded, of course). I didn't see any opinions that contradict this.

Legion was in my party, so I don't really know if he can die randomly.

[Shady314]

Branclem wrote...
or maybe time taken on the boss is the key factor?

OH! That red bar down in the lower right hand corner. A timer?! It's where the timer for the vents was. I thought it had to do with it's health but why have that and the Armor bar. I think you may be right.

[Ken Ueno]

Yeah, who you keep in your playable squad is also an important factor. If you bring the team members that were 'supposed' to die in the Normandy in your squad during the occulus attack, they will not be killed when the un-upgraded ship is hit; other characters will die instead.

Having weak or disloyal characters in your squad during the early part of the base assault also seems to protect them from death. However, if you keep using them during the boss fight, I think they will die at the end (untested)

Modifié par Ken Ueno, 31 janvier 2010 - 04:46 .

[Ken Ueno]

Shady314 wrote...

OH! That red bar down in the lower right hand corner. A timer?! It's where the timer for the vents was. I thought it had to do with it's health but why have that and the Armor bar. I think you may be right.

I'm pretty sure that's just another health bar, so you know how the fight's going at all times (like when you're targeting collectors or the boss is hiding).  It doesn't decrease unless you hit the boss.

[Mlow44]

in my first game Mordin died at the very end, while I was fighting the final boss. Everyone was loyal, I had every upgrade except one each for shotgun damage and submachine gun damage (neither of which Mordin could have used). made 100% sure to have all of the upgrades that the teammates suggested. still, he died and I have no idea why. according to everything i've read on the subject so far, and even others' experiences that match mine EXCEPT mordin's death, he should have survived. Hence, I am convinced that it's at least partially random

[Branclem]

Ken Ueno wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

OH! That red bar down in the lower right hand corner. A timer?! It's where the timer for the vents was. I thought it had to do with it's health but why have that and the Armor bar. I think you may be right.

I'm pretty sure that's just another health bar, so you know how the fight's going at all times (like when you're targeting collectors or the boss is hiding).  It doesn't decrease unless you hit the boss.

Indeed, that is just a health bar.  I was just speculating about time potentially influencing it, but if it does there is no on-screen indicator about it.

[Dick Sterling]

Are the Jack/Miranda and Tali/Legion conflicts a factor?

[mdp310]

Mlow44 wrote...

in my first game Mordin died at the very end, while I was fighting the final boss. Everyone was loyal, I had every upgrade except one each for shotgun damage and submachine gun damage (neither of which Mordin could have used). made 100% sure to have all of the upgrades that the teammates suggested. still, he died and I have no idea why. according to everything i've read on the subject so far, and even others' experiences that match mine EXCEPT mordin's death, he should have survived. Hence, I am convinced that it's at least partially random

The same thing happened for me on my first time through. Did everything right, nobody died, then as everyone gets back to the ship Mordin was lying on the ground. Weird. I did it again with Mordin and Thane in my final party. I thought I saw Legion take a hit and go down when Jack told me how their fight was going, but he turned out to be fine.

[Inriri]

Couple things you should add:



-Legion can die when the engine overloads if you took Tali with you to deal with that annoying thing that breaks into the cargo hold

-You can do one mission (or land somewhere) before the crew starts dying after they get kidnapped

[Ken Ueno]

Another factor that's difficult to ascertain when looking at anecdotal evidence from other players (present company excluded, of course ), is whether they've actually maintained team loyalty correctly. It is quite possible to finish a loyalty quest but not gain the member's loyalty (e.g. selling out Tali's father, protecting the civilians instead of helping Zaeed, etc).

If they are potential love interests or hate each other (e.g. Tali/Legion), siding with one of the two fighting members will lose the loyalty of the other unless you have a high enough paragon/renegade score to mediate a compromise.

Modifié par Ken Ueno, 31 janvier 2010 - 04:47 .

[Branclem]

Ken Ueno wrote...

Another factor that's difficult to ascertain when looking at anecdotal evidence from other players (present company excluded, of course ), is whether they've actually maintained team loyalty correctly. It is quite possible to finish a loyalty quest but not gain the member's loyalty (e.g. selling out Tali's father, protecting the civilians instead of helping Zaeed, etc).

If they are potential love interests, siding with one of the two fighting members will lose the loyalty of the other unless you have a high enough paragon/renegade score to mediate a compromise.

That's certainly true, but I would hope that people who have lost loyalty would notice as this is indicated on the squad selection screen, no?  If you've maintained full loyalty then all characters will have the little red circle under their feet.

[cnumartyr]

Ken Ueno wrote...

Another factor that's difficult to ascertain when looking at anecdotal evidence from other players (present company excluded, of course ), is whether they've actually maintained team loyalty correctly. It is quite possible to finish a loyalty quest but not gain the member's loyalty (e.g. selling out Tali's father, protecting the civilians instead of helping Zaeed, etc).

If they are potential love interests, siding with one of the two fighting members will lose the loyalty of the other unless you have a high enough paragon/renegade score to mediate a compromise.

I helped the civilians and still got Zaeed's loyalty.

[Ken Ueno]

Inriri wrote...

Couple things you should add:

-Legion can die when the engine overloads if you took Tali with you to deal with that annoying thing that breaks into the cargo hold
-You can do one mission (or land somewhere) before the crew starts dying after they get kidnapped

Thanks!  Added.

[xMister Vx]

Inriri wrote...

-You can do one mission (or land somewhere) before the crew starts dying after they get kidnapped

No, it's actually two. I did Tali's loyalty and Legion's loyalty before the Collectors attacked the ship.

[Inriri]

Yea, it's possible to go full paragon and still get Zaeed's loyalty. The problem, though, is that you miss out on a rather awesome cutscene

[Inriri]

xMister Vx wrote...

Inriri wrote...

-You can do one mission (or land somewhere) before the crew starts dying after they get kidnapped

No, it's actually two. I did Tali's loyalty and Legion's loyalty before the Collectors attacked the ship.

I'm talking about after they attack the ship and abduct everyone

[xMister Vx]

I think you're supposed to go there right away so no one dies...? Might depend on difficulty.

[Gamma626]

To have all the characters survive, you have to play some missions with them too. You can't ignore each character.



I did two run throughs. One where I didn't play with most of the team. The people I didnt use died. Then I reloaded and did some missions with them all, and we made it.v

[sarls]

I believe both randomness and time spent using the character in game play a factor. Thanks for these tips guys, they're helpful!

[Branclem]

Gamma626 wrote...

To have all the characters survive, you have to play some missions with them too. You can't ignore each character.

I did two run throughs. One where I didn't play with most of the team. The people I didnt use died. Then I reloaded and did some missions with them all, and we made it.v

Interesting.  Aside from within their individual loyalty missions, most of my characters didn't see any use time and they still survived just fine.

[chem light]

I think you're right about not playing with characters.   I never used Mordin groundside except for his mission.  Even though I sent him back with the crew he died.  Repeatedly.  

[cnumartyr]

chem light wrote...

I think you're right about not playing with characters.   I never used Mordin groundside except for his mission.  Even though I sent him back with the crew he died.  Repeatedly.  

Wierd, I did the same thing.  I never used him other than his loyalty mission but he didn't die.  I had Thane run people back to the ship and never used him outside of his loyalty mission as well and he didn't die.