379 réponses à ce sujet

[majjkiie]

Hi!



I read through all posts, my problem: Tali dies..



She is not loyal due to lack of paragon/renegade points (all other is loyal)



vent: legion

leader (both times) garrus

escort: grunt

final battle: garrus & legion



tali dies.



2nd try:



vent: legion

leader (both times) garrus

escort: grunt

final battle: legion & tali



tali dies.



any tips how to get tali survive while she's not loyal ?

[Catfish42]

Thanks ulrich! Well, I do rp but to get this to fit I just won't bring it up with garrus and jacob. I'll just talk to tali and get the upgrade to keep the shields up.



I'm not a huge fan of completely happy endings, and I really do like some of the crew like gabby, kelly, and grunt. Having some losses seems a bit more plausible to me though, and kind of adds to the emotion of the story.



I'll be giving this a shot, thanks again.

[Davidos Wolfe]

Well, Mordin just bleedin' died on me.

Freaking got every single upgrade, yes, every damn little thing, made rearrangements to my teams to get him in and still he keeps freaking dieing. Reloaded about 50 times. Kept a good relationship with him, no arguments or nothing.





I'm done, f*** him.

[GotchaNL]

I'm afraid you're screwed, majjkiie, but you might try this:

Have her hold the door with the rest of the group and be sure to leave Garrus, Miranda and Jacob (=high leadership) with her. With luck she might survive. Might take a few retries.



Do not take her with you to fight the boss, because she'll die for sure.

I'll be interested in the end result.

[DuffyMJ]

What I can't understand is how is Samara not a good leadership/fireteam choice? SHE'S 1,000 YEARS OLD!!! Garrus, who aspired to be a no-rules spectre type and who got his whole elite team wiped out and rages hardcore all the time is a good leader, but Samara who lives by a disciplined code and is a super biotic and is unbiased and has no worldy attachments is a poor leader?

I'm sorry but just help me out here, even Miranda -- if you pick Samara -- is like "she has unmatched experience... great choice!" and when you pick Garrus she's like "well, I GUESS he knows what he's doing..." And Miranda clearly doesn't have leadership skills... she shoots dudes she suspects of teachery on sight, is constantly second-guessed, is hated by Jack...

And then Jacob too? He's no more qualified than Ashley or Jenkins would be! 

But no... Samara is a poor leader.  <_<

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 07 février 2010 - 03:08 .

[GotchaNL]

@Davidos Wolfe: Sure he was loyal?
At which point did you reload? Perhaps the game had already flagged Mordin as a casualty when you saved your game.

@DuffyMJ: Samara has worked alone all this time. She doesn't have a clue about what working in a group means. Talking to her on the ship also tells you this.
Garrus might have lost people, but he's devastated by it, which tells you that he cares and would do his utter best to keep people alive when in the lead, unlike a selfish bastard like Zaeed.

Modifié par GotchaNL, 07 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[Catfish42]

DuffyMJ wrote...

What I can't understand is how is Samara not a good leadership/fireteam choice? SHE'S 1,000 YEARS OLD!!! Garrus, who aspired to be a no-rules spectre type and who got his whole elite team wiped out and rages hardcore all the time is a good leader, but Samara who lives by a disciplined code and is a super biotic and is unbiased and has no worldy attachments is a poor leader?

I'm sorry but just help me out here, even Miranda -- if you pick Samara -- is like "she has unmatched experience... great choice!" and when you pick Garrus she's like "well, I GUESS he knows what he's doing..." And Miranda clearly doesn't have leadership skills... she shoots dudes she suspects of teachery on sight, is constantly second-guessed, is hated by Jack...

And then Jacob too? He's no more qualified than Ashley or Jenkins would be! 

But no... Samara is a poor leader.  <_<

Well, Miranda is obviously a poor leader. Garrus was actually a very efficient leader; he led his team of 12 well enough for them to become a major threat to the three largest gangs in the sector. His team was only wiped out because of an inside job, not because of poor leadership.

I figure that Samara makes an excellent operative, but she's used to working alone and she's willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING (including her own life, her daughter's life, and random people) for her oath. A lone wolf with no qualms about sacrifice probably won't get your team out untouched.

My two cents anyway. I'm with you on jacob though.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Catfish42 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

What I can't understand is how is Samara not a good leadership/fireteam choice? SHE'S 1,000 YEARS OLD!!! Garrus, who aspired to be a no-rules spectre type and who got his whole elite team wiped out and rages hardcore all the time is a good leader, but Samara who lives by a disciplined code and is a super biotic and is unbiased and has no worldy attachments is a poor leader?

I'm sorry but just help me out here, even Miranda -- if you pick Samara -- is like "she has unmatched experience... great choice!" and when you pick Garrus she's like "well, I GUESS he knows what he's doing..." And Miranda clearly doesn't have leadership skills... she shoots dudes she suspects of teachery on sight, is constantly second-guessed, is hated by Jack...

And then Jacob too? He's no more qualified than Ashley or Jenkins would be! 

But no... Samara is a poor leader.  <_<

Well, Miranda is obviously a poor leader. Garrus was actually a very efficient leader; he led his team of 12 well enough for them to become a major threat to the three largest gangs in the sector. His team was only wiped out because of an inside job, not because of poor leadership.

I figure that Samara makes an excellent operative, but she's used to working alone and she's willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING (including her own life, her daughter's life, and random people) for her oath. A lone wolf with no qualms about sacrifice probably won't get your team out untouched.

My two cents anyway. I'm with you on jacob though.

Samara is obviously a poor choice for a squad leader. You could be the best soldier in the world but it won't matter if you don't know how to command a squad. I know a guy who lost FOUR sqad members, and he though he was doing everything right.  He sent Grunt as a squad leader. *facepalm* on his second try, he used Thane *double facepalm* the guy who says, quote "I'm not used to working with this many people."

Jacob makes sense because of his alliance training. You don't get far into the alliance millitary unless you know how to work on a team. Ashley lead a sqaud, Kaiden was a lieutenant, Jacob worked with a squad of Alliance Corsairs. You have to read the character's background to know who to send, not there capabilities.

I...honestly don't know how Miranda handles leading a squad though. She seems more like a behind the scenes, strategy sort of leader, not the front lines kind.

Modifié par SharpEdgeSoda, 07 février 2010 - 04:01 .

[The Lord of Space]

I was able to complete 2 missions between acquiring the IFF and the forced crew abduction mission. I saved Tali's and Legion's loyalty missions so that I could bring them to both.



I believe, though am not completely positive, that the random Mordin deaths at the end have to do with who you leave behind guarding the door. If there aren't enough fighters/biotics along with the "weaker" characters, one or more will die. In my playthrough I had Jacob escort back to the ship and took Legion and Garrus into the final battle leaving the rest of the cast at the door. Everyone survived.

[DuffyMJ]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Catfish42 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

What I can't understand is how is Samara not a good leadership/fireteam choice? SHE'S 1,000 YEARS OLD!!! Garrus, who aspired to be a no-rules spectre type and who got his whole elite team wiped out and rages hardcore all the time is a good leader, but Samara who lives by a disciplined code and is a super biotic and is unbiased and has no worldy attachments is a poor leader?

I'm sorry but just help me out here, even Miranda -- if you pick Samara -- is like "she has unmatched experience... great choice!" and when you pick Garrus she's like "well, I GUESS he knows what he's doing..." And Miranda clearly doesn't have leadership skills... she shoots dudes she suspects of teachery on sight, is constantly second-guessed, is hated by Jack...

And then Jacob too? He's no more qualified than Ashley or Jenkins would be! 

But no... Samara is a poor leader.  <_<

Well, Miranda is obviously a poor leader. Garrus was actually a very efficient leader; he led his team of 12 well enough for them to become a major threat to the three largest gangs in the sector. His team was only wiped out because of an inside job, not because of poor leadership.

I figure that Samara makes an excellent operative, but she's used to working alone and she's willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING (including her own life, her daughter's life, and random people) for her oath. A lone wolf with no qualms about sacrifice probably won't get your team out untouched.

My two cents anyway. I'm with you on jacob though.

Samara is obviously a poor choice for a squad leader. You could be the best soldier in the world but it won't matter if you don't know how to command a squad. I know a guy who lost FOUR sqad members, and he though he was doing everything right.  He sent Grunt as a squad leader. *facepalm* on his second try, he used Thane *double facepalm* the guy who says, quote "I'm not used to working with this many people."

Jacob makes sense because of his alliance training. You don't get far into the alliance millitary unless you know how to work on a team. Ashley lead a sqaud, Kaiden was a lieutenant, Jacob worked with a squad of Alliance Corsairs. You have to read the character's background to know who to send, not there capabilities.

I...honestly don't know how Miranda handles leading a squad though. She seems more like a behind the scenes, strategy sort of leader, not the front lines kind.

I don't see it as obvious at all.  She -- at her time of recruitment -- yes, is used to being a lone wolf, etc.  But the entire point of the loyalty building, etc. was developing and changing these characters, if their capabilities in-mission are solely based on their past, then that's just really flat and lame.  Samara tells Shepard "your values are my values, your code is my code... " blah blah blah... and Shepard obviously is THE #1 leader, so someone who is basically dedicated to being Shepard's symbiote in no way or shape should be a poor leader.  She also tells you in dialog that she has grown comfortable and likes not being alone anymore.  She also clearly COMMANDS LOYALTY out of respect. ALL the asari on Illium pretty much bowed to her.  Saying a Justicar isn't a good leader is like saying the Chief Justice of the United States isn't a part of America's leadership...

Garrus' team died because of his leadership: he lived by the sword and died by the sword so to speak.  A good leader does not lead his people into the slaughter, which is exactly what being so ruthless as to cause 3 seperate gangs to align against you is!  Garrus demonstrated immaturity throughout Mass Effect 1, sort of redeemed himself or matured after the Dr. Saleon quest, but then completely fell back into his bad habits as Archangel.  He is NOT a good leader!   He's A leader, but not a good leader.

[Chasedanger]

So tried reading through this whole thread but jeez it's long, lol. 1 Question to clarify from earlier on. If I recruit Legion and activate him I will not be able to take him on many side quests etc for the fact that will cause my ships crew to die? What triggers the Collector attack on the ship where the crew is abducted? ( I just played through once and had everything cleared before I got Legion so I had nothing else left to do). This time I wanted to do the IFF mission asap so I could take Legion around with me more and get more use of the character but I don't want to sacrifice my ships crew. How do I go about that?

[Gaidren]

I agree 100% with people who are annoyed that Miranda, Jacob, and Garrus are the "leadership" people. It's pretty obvious who you are supposed to pick for the tech/biotic jobs, but tons of people who haven't read spoilers pick the "wrong" people for the leadership role.



Miranda at least has a squad passive buff, which kind of implies she can lead. Garrus used to run a 12 person squad; again, leadership is somewhat implied. But Jacob? Come ON! Samara should be the 3rd leadership option over Jacob, no question. Jacob's personality screams follower, not leader....where as Samara is 1000 freaking years old and has tons of experience.

[GotchaNL]

Garrus is a good leader, judging from his accomplishments. He could not have suspected a backstab by Sidonis and he is very broken up about it, showing that he cared about his team mates.



Miranda had some sort of leadership training, lead the Lazarus project and gawd knows what.



Jacob had some sort of leadership training, but I think he'd be the worst choice of the three leaders.



Samara has tons of experience surviving on her own. No leadership here.

Knowing how to survive does not make you a good leader! Knowing how to make others survive does.



Thane has tons of experience surviving on his own. No leadership here either.



Tali is a technician. Her attempts to lead fellow quarians during her first appearance have led to disaster, as the quarians simply ignored her orders.



Zaeed is a selfish bastard, throwing innocent lives in danger to accomplish his goals.



I don't need to explain why Grunt, Jack, Mordin or Legion would be bad leaders. If anyone picked one of these to lead, get your head examined. >_>

[AGogley]

I don't know how you guys keep getting this wrong. The dialog choices make it obvious that certain characters are a good choice and others are not. You don't choose loners to lead a tactical team. The obvious choices are Garrus and Jacob. That's it.



P.S. I think Miranda is the worst of the leaders because Jack says nobody wants to follow her. So her ties with Cerberus make her a poor choice. I choose Garrus because I thought an alien leader, leading aliens would be the most beneficial.

[AGogley]

Oh yeah, On my playthrough, I choose Legion as the tech specialist, Garrus both times as alternate team leader, and took Miranda and Samara with me on the last battle. Mordin escorted the crew back. I think having Mordin escort the team back based on the configuration is one of the most logical choices. It's either that or Jacob, IMO. Grunt is more fitted for direct confrontation. Garrus could do it, but he's a sniper more adept at digging in and/or leading. Miranda would be ok. Jacob would be excellent second choice. Tali fails too much in combat. Legion is a horrible choice, because he's Geth. Zaeed is the worst possible choice. Thane is the second worst possible choice. His skills aren't suited to the task. Samara would be ok, but again her skills are more suited to direct combat.

[fett51]

I had a fun experience with the "x-factor" earlier today.



Garrus randomly died holding the line. I reloaded and sent him back to the Normandy. Then legion bought it randomly. Reloaded again and took Legion with me. Grunt dropped. Took Grunt and Legion. Jacob dropped. On the theory that you needed all three squad leaders holding the line, I sent Mordin back to the ship and took grunt and legion again. Back to Garrus dying. Going to hold off on finishing that playthrough until someone figures out WTF is going on with the random deaths.

[AGogley]

Did you have all the loyalty quests done? Also, I've heard theories that you need enough ARs to hold the line. Try taking Miranda and Samara with you while sending Mordin back to the ship.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Catfish42 wrote...

Thanks ulrich! Well, I do rp but to get this to fit I just won't bring it up with garrus and jacob. I'll just talk to tali and get the upgrade to keep the shields up.

I'm not a huge fan of completely happy endings, and I really do like some of the crew like gabby, kelly, and grunt. Having some losses seems a bit more plausible to me though, and kind of adds to the emotion of the story.

I'll be giving this a shot, thanks again.

No worries, glad to help

I agree that some losses would be more realistic. There was a great conversation with Garrus about this in fact during the game where he expects that no matter what we do not everyone will be coming home and this is before the whole crew kidnap bit. Funny because it was only whilst am on the playthrough where I am going to have my Shep do his best shot at getting everyone home that this line came out, but if i lose anyone it won't bother me.

[fett51]

AGogley wrote...

Did you have all the loyalty quests done? Also, I've heard theories that you need enough ARs to hold the line. Try taking Miranda and Samara with you while sending Mordin back to the ship.

Yes, all the loyalty quests.  My first playthrough I got the achievement with Garrus and Samara in my squad so I don't think it's ARs. 

Oh, I poked around with the save editor earlier and didn't find anything that looked like a relevant variable, though I may've found some that will resurrect dead squad members post-game (haven't tested yet).  There's a whole mess of hex under pawns I'm not sure what to do with, somebody with more coding experience than me may want to take a look at it. 

[In Exile]

Samara isn't a leader because she's never actually led anyone in combat before. For 600 years, she's basically been a lunatic religious extremist following a particular code algorithmically and trying (and failing) to kill her own daughter. She's spent the last 600 years not working with anyone. For the entire game, she's taken orders from Shepard. Asking her to lead 8-9 people efficiently with no practice makes little sense, because she's not neccesarily good at using assets.



Here's the thing - you don't need to pick someone the squad will 'follow' in the sense that, they all follow Shepard and whoever Shepard says runs the show, runs the show. You just need people that, when it comes to making tactical choices, can make them well.



Garrus, for all his gung-ho renegade idiocy, is a pretty efficient tactical mind. He managed to hold off three entire companies of mercs usign superior positioning and ground. He lost his team not because he wasn't an efficient leader, but because he got stabbed in the back and wasn't there when it happened. In fact, the fact that 10 people, who had previously been a killing machine that no mercenary group could stop, immediately fell aparat without Garrus just goes to show how effective he is.



Jacob is ex-alliance and pretty obviously #3 on the Normandy. He's in more wrap-up talks with Shepard than Miranda is, neccesarily, after a mission. He's led men before too, and done well.



And Miranda is human+100. Smarter, faster, all that jazz. She's good at making quick decisions and putting people in a good situation for them to succeed. That's what you need in a squad leader.



Samara having 'experience' is useless. And she doesn't command respect - she's just a religious loon that Asari worship but wish would go away, and other races can barely understand ("What, you're a paragon of justice but you need to murder - not injure or incapacitiate, but outright go for the kill - an entire policy station if you don't release you in 24 hours?)



And as an aside, a judge isn't a leader. A judge is a judical authority - but asking a judge to make a case-law ruling and make policy decision is totally not an equivalent task.



You're not picking a leader that will inspire anyone - Shepard does that. You're picking someone who can put people in a place where they won't die, and Garrus definetly has that, and Samara's never had to do it.

[Catfish42]

fett51 wrote...

I had a fun experience with the "x-factor" earlier today.

Garrus randomly died holding the line. I reloaded and sent him back to the Normandy. Then legion bought it randomly. Reloaded again and took Legion with me. Grunt dropped. Took Grunt and Legion. Jacob dropped. On the theory that you needed all three squad leaders holding the line, I sent Mordin back to the ship and took grunt and legion again. Back to Garrus dying. Going to hold off on finishing that playthrough until someone figures out WTF is going on with the random deaths.

Don't know why your people are dying so much. On my first playthrough I actually got the "No One Left Behind" achievement. Did you get all the upgrades and do all the loyalty quests? If you didn't get the upgrades, you might not have enough people holding the line to keep casualties from occuring. Not sure what the game does with loyalty, but it may perform a "check" against your overall team loyalty stats. If its too low, it may just pick a random person to die.

For my run, i had Tali in the chute (adds a bit of tension to send one of your favorites into something dangerous) and Garrus leading. Biotic Shield was Samara (jack is most powerful human biotic, but i think asari justicar is better); left garrus in charge again (if he worked first time, why not second?). Final team, I took Zaeed and Samara with me, and we all made it out. Oh, and i sent jacob back with the crew; mordin didn't die on me. Lucky, i guess?

[fett51]

Catfish42 wrote...

fett51 wrote...

I had a fun experience with the "x-factor" earlier today.

Garrus randomly died holding the line. I reloaded and sent him back to the Normandy. Then legion bought it randomly. Reloaded again and took Legion with me. Grunt dropped. Took Grunt and Legion. Jacob dropped. On the theory that you needed all three squad leaders holding the line, I sent Mordin back to the ship and took grunt and legion again. Back to Garrus dying. Going to hold off on finishing that playthrough until someone figures out WTF is going on with the random deaths.

Don't know why your people are dying so much. On my first playthrough I actually got the "No One Left Behind" achievement. Did you get all the upgrades and do all the loyalty quests? If you didn't get the upgrades, you might not have enough people holding the line to keep casualties from occuring. Not sure what the game does with loyalty, but it may perform a "check" against your overall team loyalty stats. If its too low, it may just pick a random person to die.

For my run, i had Tali in the chute (adds a bit of tension to send one of your favorites into something dangerous) and Garrus leading. Biotic Shield was Samara (jack is most powerful human biotic, but i think asari justicar is better); left garrus in charge again (if he worked first time, why not second?). Final team, I took Zaeed and Samara with me, and we all made it out. Oh, and i sent jacob back with the crew; mordin didn't die on me. Lucky, i guess?

I got the achievement on my first playthrough as well, this is my second.   Have everyone loyal, all the upgrades save the heavy pistol damage on haestrom which I forgot to look for.  Initially I had tali in the chute, garrus as fire team leader both times, and samara as biotic shield, with grunt and miranda as squadmates.  I switched those up a bit as I retried the level obviously, but I kept losing someone regardless.  Even flat started it over once and Garrus still died like a redshirt. 

I'm hoping someone can correlate what I said with their experiences and figure out what the hidden variable is, since in my case at least it's clearly less to do with someone specific dying and more to do with just killing someone period.  

[LuckyShot74]

NG+ Run 1.



All crew loyal but Miranda after Miranda and Jack fight. All upgrades made to ship and players although I was missing a couple of regular weapon upgrades (Shotgun, etc...). Player was an engineer, 80-20 Paragon to Renegade.



Run 1

Squad mates: Mordin and Grunt.

Tech: Tali

Alternate Squad Leader: Garrus



Biotic: Samara

Squad mates: Grunt and Jacob



Final Run: Told the squad to Hold the doors (Not to hurry). Zaeed and Grunt in squad. Blew up the station. Miranda Died.



Reloaded to the Biotic run based on something I read. At the end, if there is disloyalty because of a fight (Miranda/Jack, Tali/Legion) then take the Loyal one with you to the end.



Biotic: Samara

Squad: Jacob and Grunt.



Final Run: Grunt and Jack, and told the guys to Hold defense as opposed to hurry. Taking Jack (Loyal) split her from Miranda (Not loyal). End result is that they all survived.

[Obidex]

I wonder if your decision with Mordin's Loyalty mission about waht to do with the Krogan Genophage info. effects him at all. I had everyone survive so its not an issue but just trying to ponder this

[marsty]

at the end i had everyones loyalty except jacks but during the final assault i got full paragon and jack survived so if you dont have everyones loyalty that doesnt necessarily mean that charcter will die