379 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

Man, this topic is really gratifying.  I got all my choices right without anyone dying, first time.    But I'm really glad that the reasoning behind the choices is solid - if you don't think about it a bit, your team can die.

My personal reasoning:

First section
Tali is the tech specialist because of her huge level of natural talent.  I considered Legion, but had a nagging fear of leaving him alone in case he was hacked somehow.  Did not consider anyone else even for a moment.  (What the fudge was Jacob thinking when he volunteered?  This isn't about your loyalty or your courage, it's about who's most suited to the job!)
Jacob was put in a leadership position because Jack was clearly unhappy about following Miranda, and we know from his military history that he's suited to the task.
My squad was Garrus and Thane (as it almost always was in the game generally, once I had both of them).  I know what they can do.

Crew found
Sent Mordin back with them because he is a doctor and will know how to care for them, plus he's also a badass and can protect them.

Second section
Jack is the biotic specialist.  No way I'm using Miranda or Jacob when I know Jack is the strongest human biotic.  Did consider Samara as well (she's awesome), but since I don't know if she's the "strongest asari," ultimately I went with Jack.  Thane (plus Garrus) is in my ideal squad, so he was a no-go.
Since Jack is with me, it's okay now to put Miranda in charge, so she's now the leader.
Again, my squad was Thane and Garrus, and they did their jobs just as well as I expected.  Love having a three-sniper party that still has access to biotics.

It was very satisfying to overcome the odds.    That said, a perverse side of me ending up thinking: "So *this* is the grand suicide mission?  Too easy!"   Not for long, though, what with the movie of the Reapers at the end.  Holy fudge...  

[Ken Ueno]

I'm beginning to suspect there is a fourth character type, like a 'Combat Specialist'. If too many of these combat types are either killed, sent back with the crew, or taken as squadmates, they will not be able to hold the line.

Otherwise Grunt, Thane, and Zaeed have no 'role' (incidentally, all are AR users).  Although, that still leaves out Mordin.  Hrm.  This will require some more testing.

Modifié par Ken Ueno, 02 février 2010 - 07:06 .

[GotchaNL]

If it helps: As I've said, my entire team survived.

- Garrus and Tali were with me, fighting the oversized terminator.

- Grunt was send back to the ship for escort.



If this assault rifle stuff is true, then I might have been awfully lucky, but I doubt it has to do with anything. Mordin can hold his own very well.

[slinky317]

Ken Ueno wrote...

I'm beginning to suspect there is a fourth character type, like a 'Combat Specialist'. If too many of these combat types are either killed, sent back with the crew, or taken as squadmates, they will not be able to hold the line.
Otherwise Grunt, Thane, and Zaeed have no 'role' (incidentally, all are AR users). This will require some more testing.

Doesn't Jacob use ARs though?  I was able to send him back without causing Mordin to die.  My first run I sent Zaeed back and had Garrus with me, and Mordin died.

[Starscream723]

Quick Update from earlier re: Assault Rifles, and Squad members for the final section.

I'm using a game with all ship updates etc, which I have already used to have everyone survive.

I've killed Legion at the first door, and sent Zaeed with the crew, which gives me exactly three remaining AR users to play around with: Garrus, Grunt, and Samara. I'm also going to include "leaders" left behind, in case a pattern emerges. Neither Legion nor Zaeed are leaders, so this shouldn't make a difference. I have saved at the final part of the Biotic stage, so other than my choice of people to take with me, everything else is exactly the same.

1st Attempt: Took Garrus and Samara with me, left Grunt to defend with the others. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Jacob and Miranda)

2nd Attempt: Took Garrus and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Samara to defend. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Jacob only)

I'm now about to take Samara and Miranda, leaving Grunt and Garrus behind. Will get back to you soon.

Modifié par Starscream723, 02 février 2010 - 07:07 .

[Dreossk]

After the crew was abducted I followed the story like it was supposed to be. Revive Legion, get him loyal then do the suicide mission and I still lost half of them. I'm so pi$sed. I did all the game perfectly, talking to everyone after every mission and getting full paragon before even getting to mid-game and not a single companion died in the suicide mission but I still lose half the crew! Wtf! Now I have to restart with a save about 8 hours old and *hope* for it not to bug this time!

Modifié par Dreossk, 02 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[slinky317]

Dreossk wrote...

After the crew was abducted I followed the story like it was supposed to be. Revive Legion, get him loyal then do the suicide mission and I still lost half of them. I'm so pi$sed. I did all the game perfectly, talking to everyone after every mission and getting full paragon before even getting to mid-game and not a single companion died in the suicide mission but I still lose half the crew! Wtf! Now I have to restart with a save about 8 hours old and *hope* for it not to bug this time!

If you don't do the suicide mission immediately after you lose your crew, your crew will start to die off.  Since you did at least one mission after the abduction, that might be why.

[ERJAK2]

Tip for the boss.



A direct hit in the eye with the nuke launcher does about 65% damage and makes the death cinematic much cooler as the nuke animation carries over.

[Dreossk]

slinky317 wrote...

Dreossk wrote...

After the crew was abducted I followed the story like it was supposed to be. Revive Legion, get him loyal then do the suicide mission and I still lost half of them. I'm so pi$sed. I did all the game perfectly, talking to everyone after every mission and getting full paragon before even getting to mid-game and not a single companion died in the suicide mission but I still lose half the crew! Wtf! Now I have to restart with a save about 8 hours old and *hope* for it not to bug this time!

If you don't do the suicide mission immediately after you lose your crew, your crew will start to die off.  Since you did at least one mission after the abduction, that might be why.

The OP says you can still do Legion's loyalty. Anyway, you must do since it's the order the story is given to you and if you don't he'll die in the mission for not being loyal as many said.

[Starscream723]

Another Update from earlier re: Assault Rifles, and Squad members for the final section.

I'm using a game with all ship updates etc, which I have already used to have everyone survive.

I've killed Legion at the first door, and sent Zaeed with the crew, which gives me exactly three remaining AR users to play around with: Garrus, Grunt, and Samara. I'm also going to include "leaders" left behind, in case a pattern emerges. Neither Legion nor Zaeed are leaders, so this shouldn't make a difference. I have saved at the final part of the Biotic stage, so other than my choice of people to take with me, everything else is exactly the same.

1st Attempt: Took Garrus and Samara with me, left Grunt to defend with the others. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Jacob and Miranda)

2nd Attempt: Took Garrus and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Samara to defend. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Jacob only)

3rd Attempt: Took Samara and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Garrus to defend. Mordin survived.
(Leaders left behind: Garrus and Jacob)

Literally, the only difference between #2 and #3 is that I switched Garrus for Samara.

#1: Two leaders, only one AR => death
#2: Two ARs, only one leader => death
#3: Two ARs and Two leaders => survival

This will of course require further testing. Another possibility is that Garrus is somehow special here (perhaps because he led the distraction team?). I shall test this by only leaving one AR behind, but making that one Garrus. This should show if the Garrus factor is enough, or if it is dependent on both the number of leaders AND the number of ARs. It could well be that Garrus appears to stand out as significant because he falls into BOTH categories, and therefore gives the illusion of being more important to the outcome. Will report back soon.

Modifié par Starscream723, 02 février 2010 - 07:55 .

[slinky317]

I'm thinking Garrus is a big clue here. For some reason, if you leave him with the team, Mordin survives.

[Starscream723]

Not true



Yet another update:



1st Attempt: Took Garrus and Samara with me, left Grunt to defend with the others. Mordin died.

(Leaders left behind: Jacob and Miranda)



2nd Attempt: Took Garrus and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Samara to defend. Mordin died.

(Leaders left behind: Jacob only)



3rd Attempt: Took Samara and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Garrus to defend. Mordin survived.

(Leaders left behind: Garrus and Jacob)



4th Attempt: Took Samara and Grunt with me, left only Garrus to defend with an AR. Mordin died.

(Leaders left behind: Miranda, Garrus and Jacob)



#1: Two leaders, only one AR => death

#2: Two ARs, only one leader => death

#3: Two ARs and Two leaders => survival

#4: Three leaders, only one AR => death, even though the one AR was Garrus.



So far, it seems you need to leave at least TWO AR users, AS WELL AS at least TWO leaders. My theory is that if either the number of ARs or leaders is less than two, Mordin (or someone) will die.



As a further test, I will leave all three ARs behind, but take both Jacob and Miranda with me, leaving them with only one leader (Garrus) at the defense. If the theory is correct, Mordin should still die despite all the AR users with him.

[slinky317]

It can't be two leaders - the second run through, I sent back Jacob with the survivors and took Miranda with me, so I only had Garrus as a leader left and Mordin survived.

Just to test, try seeing if you run it through with the same people more than once if it gives you the same results, that way we can exclude timing and randomness from having an effect.

Modifié par slinky317, 02 février 2010 - 08:09 .

[Comguard2]

I think you`re results differ because you kept Grunt.



I`ve sent him away as escort.



In the best case you have 5 ARs:



Garrus

Legion

Samara

Grunt

Zaeed



The game thinks that Garrus and Miranda are the best leaders: they are the only ones who can complete the leadership missions successfull.



That's why Garrus and Mirranda doesn`t work! Because you`re taking the real leaders away.



There are two possibilities:

- Garrus is the perfect leader for defense

- it is a combination of Garrus and/or Miranda + 2 ARs



Maybe that`s why Mordin dies quite often when you take Garrus on the last mission, because he is a leader and has an AR.



I will try Legion and Samara now. Then Samara and Miranda.

[slinky317]

Comguard2 wrote...

The game thinks that Garrus and Miranda are the best leaders: they are the only ones who can complete the leadership missions successfull.

Not true - Jacob will complete the leadership missions successfully as well.

[Rokkuman]

Geeze the final firefight is confusing as to what lets the members live.

I took Garrus and Zaeed after sending Grunt with Chakwas and having Legion die at the door. That caused Mordin to die.

[Nimirel]

All ship advancements made.



Thane as Tech Specialist - he dies - I chose because I was thinking that he was suited for covert operation



Samara as Fire Team Leader



Grunt and Jack for Squad







Samara for Biotic Specialist



Miranda as 2nd Fire Team Leader



Zaeed as Escort



Samara and Grunt for Squad



All loyal with Miranda exception, I did her mission but sided with Jack. Miranda dies during hold the line, crew arrives safely with Zaeed. Rest is safe. Base destroyed, Thane son rescued, cure stored for future, Garrus old mate killed.

[Woodfox1979]

Has anyone been able to figure out why sometimes going on Legion's quest kills half your crew but sometimes it doesn't? It makes no sense to me! Since I did the IFF mission after doing EVERY side quest and such it automatically launched to the "kidnap the crew" part before I could do anything, punishing me for playing the game right. Which is total BS and poor testing on BioWare's part. And no one here seems to know what triggers your crew to be kidnapped, how many missions can I go on after getting the IFF before they are kidnapped? Any idea? It's soooo confusing!



I'm glad everyone is having fun figuring this stuff out, but to me it seems like bad game design. I like everything else about the game but deciding this much of the outcome to what seems like pure chance (or concepts so complex no one can figure them out) is just stupid.

[Starscream723]

Probably my last update for a while, as further tests will require me to play through the beginning of the mission again.

1st Attempt: Took Garrus and Samara with me, left Grunt to defend with the others. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Jacob and Miranda)

2nd Attempt: Took Garrus and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Samara to defend. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Jacob only)

3rd Attempt: Took Samara and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Garrus to defend. Mordin survived.
(Leaders left behind: Garrus and Jacob)

4th Attempt: Took Samara and Grunt with me, left only Garrus to defend with an AR. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Miranda, Garrus and Jacob)

5th Attempt: Took Miranda and Jacob with me, left Grunt, Garrus AND Samara to defend. Mordin survived.
(Leader left behind: Garrus only)

#1: Two leaders, only one AR => death
#2: Two ARs, only one leader => death
#3: Two ARs and Two leaders => survival
#4: Three leaders, only one AR => death, even though the one AR was Garrus.
#5: Three ARs, only one leader => survival

Okay, here is my working theory for the time being. I'm going to make up a concept called "Survival Points". Bear with me.

Each AR user gets a point. Each leader gets a point. Garrus contributes two points, one for leadership, one for AR.

It looks to me, so far, with further tests required, that for everyone to survive the defense, two criteria must be met:

1. You must leave behind at least FOUR survival points.
2. At least TWO of these must be AR users.

Looking at my test runs:
#1 fails both (only 1 AR, only 3 points total) and results in death.
#2 meets the second, but not the first (2 ARs, only 3 points total) and results in death.
#3 meets both (2 ARs, 4 points total) and results in survival.
#4  meets the first, but fails the second (4 points total, but only 1 AR) and results in death.
#5 meets both (3 ARs, 4 points total) and results in survival.

Now, to look at Rokkuman's given example:

"I took Garrus and Zaeed after sending Grunt with Chakwas and having Legion die at the door. That caused Mordin to die".

So, by process of elimination, you left Miranda and Jacob as leaders, but only Samara was left with an AR. This gives you only 3 points total, and only one of those was from an AR. Hence, failure.

As I said, this will need further testing. I intend to get rid of Garrus, and see if survival is possible with no leaders left behind at all. Possibly you can get by with four ARs, or maybe at least one of the four points  needs to be from leadership.

Also, please note that all my tests were done with full loyalty from all characters, so I cannot determine if loyalty is a factor.

Modifié par Starscream723, 02 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[The Wolfen]

slinky317 wrote...

I'm thinking Garrus is a big clue here. For some reason, if you leave him with the team, Mordin survives.

I left Garrus with the door-hold team, took Samara and Jaeed with me. Mordin died.

[The Wolfen]

Starscream723 wrote...

Probably my last update for a while, as further tests will require me to play through the beginning of the mission again.

1st Attempt: Took Garrus and Samara with me, left Grunt to defend with the others. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Jacob and Miranda)

2nd Attempt: Took Garrus and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Samara to defend. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Jacob only)

3rd Attempt: Took Samara and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Garrus to defend. Mordin survived.
(Leaders left behind: Garrus and Jacob)

4th Attempt: Took Samara and Grunt with me, left only Garrus to defend with an AR. Mordin died.
(Leaders left behind: Miranda, Garrus and Jacob)

5th Attempt: Took Miranda and Jacob with me, left Grunt, Garrus AND Samara to defend. Mordin survived.
(Leader left behind: Garrus only)

#1: Two leaders, only one AR => death
#2: Two ARs, only one leader => death
#3: Two ARs and Two leaders => survival
#4: Three leaders, only one AR => death, even though the one AR was Garrus.
#5: Three ARs, only one leader => survival

Okay, here is my working theory for the time being. I'm going to make up a concept called "Survival Points". Bear with me.

Each AR user gets a point. Each leader gets a point. Garrus contributes two points, one for leadership, one for AR.

It looks to me, so far, with further tests required, that for everyone to survive the defense, two criteria must be met:

1. You must leave behind at least FOUR survival points.
2. At least TWO of these must be AR users.

Looking at my test runs:
#1 fails both (only 1 AR, only 3 points total) and results in death.
#2 meets the second, but not the first (2 ARs, only 3 points total) and results in death.
#3 meets both (2 ARs, 4 points total) and results in survival.
#4  meets the first, but fails the second (4 points total, but only 1 AR) and results in death.
#5 meets both (3 ARs, 4 points total) and results in survival.

Now, to look at Rokkuman's given example:

"I took Garrus and Zaeed after sending Grunt with Chakwas and having Legion die at the door. That caused Mordin to die".

So, by process of elimination, you left Miranda and Jacob as leaders, but only Samara was left with an AR. This gives you only 3 points total, and only one of those was from an AR. Hence, failure.

As I said, this will need further testing. I intend to get rid of Garrus, and see if survival is possible with no leaders left behind at all. Possibly you can get by with four ARs, or maybe at least one of the four points  needs to be from leadership.

Also, please note that all my tests were done with full loyalty from all characters, so I cannot determine if loyalty is a factor.

I sent Grunt back with the crew.
I left Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Legion, Mordin, Thane, Jack and Tali at the door.
I took Jaeed and Samara to the endboss.

Door crew has 3 leaders, Garrus, Miranda and Jacob.
Door crew has 2 ARs, Legion and Garrus.

Mordin dies.

[slinky317]

Is Legion an AR class?

[Starscream723]

Testing my theory on Nimirel's post...

Okay, so by process of elimination, for the AR users, Zaeed was gone, so were Samara and Grunt, but you did leave Garrus and Legion.

Therefore, you left at least two AR users. Check.

You also get at least two more points from Leadership (Garrus and Jacob), and maybe a third from Miranda (I couldn't tell if you meant she died here, or just before).

Either way, it gives you a total of four or more "survival points" for that section, and Mordin survived! The theory holds up here.


Wolfen... dammit. What was the loyalty status of those you left behind? I cannot test loyalty without replaying the entire game, but perhaps that is a factor?

Modifié par Starscream723, 02 février 2010 - 08:56 .

[Comguard2]

@starscream



I like your idea with the survival points, but my solution is: 5 survival points are necessary.



New attempts:



Legion and Samara: Modrin survived



Miranda and Samara: Modrin survived



For me this means:



It is a combination of the trait leadership and AR.



That would explain why



Garrus - Legin: Mordin dead



Samara - Legion: Mordin survives



Let`s use your survival points: AR is 1 point, leadership 1 point



Garrus: 2

Miranda: 1

Jacob: 1

Legion: 1

Grunt: 1

Zaeed: 1

Samara: 1



Means you can have a max. of 8 survival points.



I sent grunt away, means just 7 for me...



Which means: you need at least 5 defense point to let everyone survive.



With Garrus and Miranda/Samara/Legion I had only 4 left - not enough.



So I guess Garrus' secret is his double-trait: leader and fighter.



@ The Wolfen



Who was escort? Everyone on loyal?

[Starscream723]

@Comguard2

I thought about upping the number of points required from 4 to 5, but unless I'm missing something, my two tests that resulted in survival both did so with a total of 4. Remember, I killed Legion and sent away Zaeed, so they're out of the working.

3rd Attempt: Took Samara and Miranda with me, left Grunt AND Garrus to defend. Mordin survived.
(Leaders left behind: Garrus and Jacob)

Only two ARs, and only two leaders. Four points, and survival.

5th Attempt: Took Miranda and Jacob with me, left Grunt, Garrus AND Samara to defend. Mordin survived.
(Leader left behind: Garrus only)

Three ARs, only one leader. Four points, and survival.

Of course, the other test where I had four points but failed, I only had one AR.

I think I'm close, it works well mostly, and I agree that Garrus' presence in both categories is the reason why he seems to make the difference for a lot of people.

I'm hoping that Wolfen had a different loyalty status for one of the ARs, or leaders, or both, and that this also has an effect. Otherwise, I cannot think of a way to adapt my theory that still works.

Modifié par Starscream723, 02 février 2010 - 09:12 .