119 réponses à ce sujet

[LucidStrike]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Litos456 wrote...

None of them are bad guys. It's a simple misunderstanding.

This.

Once the Geth developed sapience, the Quarians freaked out and tried to control their automated slaves. Before their intelligence, I wouldn't have cared, but at the point they attained sapience, much of the fault was the Quarians. The QUARIANS were the ones that fought back hard to try to keep the Geth down, and were the ones that chose to leave rather than deal with the problem. The Geth have no hard feelings whatsoever -- they're taking care of their creators' homeworlds, ffs!

Still, it actually gave me chills to listen to Legion's earliest record where the Geth, in halting speech, asked the question -- "does this unit have a soul?" or similar. Even moreso when the Quarian handler freaked out. Just... wow. Even the audio was... exciting.

Pretty much. ME3 seems to be headed for a resultion to the conflict. How that comes about will be based on what Shepherd did. I'm hoping for a peaceful resolution.

[Swank Baron]

Geth are AI, everything they do is for self-preservation and promotion. Same could be said for most races but it is different when you have an AI who calculates every possibility, even the ones that are unethical.

[Shannara13]

halO bendeR wrote...

I can't help but see the Quarian/Geth situation as something of an allegory for --or at least inspired by-- certain real world situations...
I don't think either side is 'bad', but certainly both sides preference to use violence over negotiation is the cause of much of the problem in the first place.

I didn't get the impression that the Geth perfered to use violence. It seem that they were just forced into it. If anything they seem rather sad that thier creators turned on them and tried to kill them.

[Inriri]

Hopefully in ME3 we can have the chance to resolve this peacefully

[speedy111280]

I love that Bioware did this and I love the whole Quarian/Geth storyline even if Tali isn't my favorite character. It's a situation where both are at fault, much like the Human/Cylons on BSG. It's a misunderstanding but it's gone so far that reconciliation is hard.

[NarcissaArtois]

I guess it depends on who's side you are on. In my opinion the Quarians got scared, maybe there had been issues with AI in the past (?). Geth are not exactly the innocent bystanders either however. They worshipped the Reapers like gods...whos to say they would not have handed the quarians over as an offering?

The whole thing could have been avoided if the Quarians had just done their own manuel labour....I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this lol.

[Shannara13]

NarcissaArtois wrote...

I guess it depends on who's side you are on. In my opinion the Quarians got scared, maybe there had been issues with AI in the past (?). Geth are not exactly the innocent bystanders either however. They worshipped the Reapers like gods...whos to say they would not have handed the quarians over as an offering?
The whole thing could have been avoided if the Quarians had just done their own manuel labour....I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this lol.

Actually the Geth did not worship the Reapers. Only the heretics worshiped the Reapers.

[Garuda One]

NarcissaArtois wrote...

I guess it depends on who's side you are on. In my opinion the Quarians got scared, maybe there had been issues with AI in the past (?). Geth are not exactly the innocent bystanders either however. They worshipped the Reapers like gods...whos to say they would not have handed the quarians over as an offering?
The whole thing could have been avoided if the Quarians had just done their own manuel labour....I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this lol.

There are two factions of Geth from my understanding. Ones who worship the Reapers and ones who don't. Legion and his faction are the ones that don't and believe they should find there own path and way in the galaxy.

[Dave of Canada]

The best possible solution is to make the Geth move to another planet and the Quarians move in back on their home planet, we might even see Tali without her suit if she reappears and that happens.

[Draven2point0]

NarcissaArtois wrote...

I guess it depends on who's side you are on. In my opinion the Quarians got scared, maybe there had been issues with AI in the past (?). Geth are not exactly the innocent bystanders either however. They worshipped the Reapers like gods...whos to say they would not have handed the quarians over as an offering?
The whole thing could have been avoided if the Quarians had just done their own manuel labour....I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this lol.

Ok my whole opinon is in spoiler so be wary.

Spoiler

You have to remember however, there are two sets of Geth. The normal Geth and the Heratics. The Heratics are the ones who followed the Reapers. In fact when you talk to Legion he says they are keeping the Homeworld clean and presevered and are living in space stations. He also said that "We cannot create peace on our own." Saying that if the Quarians would give them a chance, there could be peace. Hell there is a really good chance that they can get the Homeworld back without conflict.

Modifié par Draven2point0, 31 janvier 2010 - 06:15 .

[AngryTigerP]

blank1 wrote...

The real bad guys here are the Council species. They basically told billions of Quarians, "Too bad, deal with it." Then they all died. It was basically a Citadel sanctioned near-extinction event. There easily could have been Council intervention on a scale much smaller than full scale war to open up dialogue, even if they had to intimidate with massive fleets to force either side to talk. It's not like there would have been massive losses either -- the Geth were very undeveloped, and the Turians had the largest fleet in Citadel space at the time.

Billions of lives could have been saved, and the Citadel would have powerful AI allies.

Screw the Council. I'm glad I let those pricks die.

Several problems with this. The Council and Citadel races always had issues with AI, and the Geth cemented it. No way would they have at all allied themselves with the Geth, as the dominant sentiment is that an AI, no matter how intelligent or sapient, is a subserviant machine. The Geth weren't at all intimidated by war. They don't feel fear, or awe, or shock -- so the best that could have been hoped for would be a war-scarred Rannoch instead of the place that the Geth are carefully cultivating for the Quarians' eventual return. That makes me wonder how that'll work out, and hopefully we see it in our 'lifetime' (well, Shepard's already lived two lives, but you get the idea :3). Will the Quarians open negotiations and the Geth will welcome the Creators home? Will Xen and the pro-war Quarians actually end up waging a war of reclamation that doesn't need to happen?

You go on about how the Quarians were faced with near extinction -- if the Council had listened to the Quarians and put down the Geth, how would that NOT be extinction?

[Shannara13]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The best possible solution is to make the Geth move to another planet and the Quarians move in back on their home planet, we might even see Tali without her suit if she reappears and that happens.

That is a real possiblity since the Geth don't particularly care where they live and they seem to be keeping the homeworld clean for the Quarians. Also they seem to really want peace as long as it doesn't come with them being slaves or exterminated.

[DariusKalera]

PathofDaggers wrote...

I'd go with neither, but did any one else get a Battlestar Galactica vibe from this whole situation? I dont know how the original series was cause Ive never watched it but still, just remembering the openings of the new series' episodes seems like Bioware got isperation for it from BSG

Nah, more like Terminator, or maybe the Matrix, possibly I, Robot,though I think any of them would have worked as inspiration.

[SirRengeti]

The best possible solution is peace between Quarians and Geth.

The whole situation is basend on a great misunderstanding. The Geth developed further than the Quarians intended. So they werent't able to fully understand the Geth anymore. This built fear, fear causes aggression and aggression causes irrational decisions.

The Geth aren't more violent then any other races. As Legion said other species will only be involved if they involve themselves.

With Tali, Legion and the knowledge about the "heretics" is a new situation arisen which can help to end this conflict.

[Jonathan Shepard]

After hearing Legion's recording, I abandoned the idea the Quarians had souls themselves. Geth-- who I thought of as mini-reapers, basically, until meeting Legion (always loved him since his first reveal). After that, Quarians no longer seemed right.

[Kittykat1984]

Ok, there seem to be some msunderstandings here. From what i understood in ME1, the Geth were never meant to be AIs, instead they were simple robotic workers for factories. Not given any real intelligence to begin with, the problem came with the Quarian creating a 'neural network' were in the Geth could perform extremely complex tasks by linking their CPUs together. By allowing them to do that I guess even without blue box technology the basis of true AIs, they were able to create an AI by another means. As such, the geth research really didn't violate the laws concerning AI research in council space. HOWEVER, the council has had propaganda for eons about how AI would result in the complete annihilation of all sentient organic life in the galaxy. As such when the Quarians found out they'd made a sentient artificial race, they freaked out because they like most of the galaxy had been brainwashed by propaganda that all AI will destroy organic life one day.



yes the geth retaliated against the quarian's attempts to destroy them in what the quarian's likely saw as self defense, and the geth drove the quarian from their planets and attacked. I don't think the geth ever intended to commit genecide or anything of the sort, in fact i suspect they just found themselves at war, and defended themselves by pushing the aggressor back.



If you don't believe me on some of this stuff go back to ME1 and talk to Tali alot, and read the codexs.

[rumination888]

blank1 wrote...

The real bad guys here are the Council species. They basically told billions of Quarians, "Too bad, deal with it." Then they all died. It was basically a Citadel sanctioned near-extinction event. There easily could have been Council intervention on a scale much smaller than full scale war to open up dialogue, even if they had to intimidate with massive fleets to force either side to talk. It's not like there would have been massive losses either -- the Geth were very undeveloped, and the Turians had the largest fleet in Citadel space at the time.

Billions of lives could have been saved, and the Citadel would have powerful AI allies.

Screw the Council. I'm glad I let those pricks die.

In Citadel Space, creating AI is illegal so the Quarians wouldn't have created and used Geth en masse in the first place. The Quarian homeworld was beyond the Veil; beyond Citadel Space jurisdiction.

[mcvxiii]

aeetos21 wrote...

The quarians wanted cheap labor, so they researched heavily into advanced AI. It worked for a while until the AI (the geth) became self aware.

Well that is what any techological advancement is, a cheap and efficient means to and end. If the robots in car manufacturing facility became self-aware would we grant them the same rights as human beings or would we shut them down and attempt to remove that bit? My money would be on the latter. I really don't know how I would react if my microwave, dishwasher, coffee maker, washing machine, clothes dryer, computer, tv, and roomba starting asking themselves philosophical questions -- most likely I would unplug them and contact the manfacturers.

I don't think that this is a black and white question of who is good and who is bad. It is a matter of perspective and how both reacted is understandable when looked at the situation from each perspective.

[LucidStrike]

Swank Baron wrote...

Geth are AI, everything they do is for self-preservation and promotion. Same could be said for most races but it is different when you have an AI who calculates every possibility, even the ones that are unethical.

Oh, Jeopardy. What is unfounded conjecture?

[blank1]

rumination888 wrote...

blank1 wrote...

The real bad guys here are the Council species. They basically told billions of Quarians, "Too bad, deal with it." Then they all died. It was basically a Citadel sanctioned near-extinction event. There easily could have been Council intervention on a scale much smaller than full scale war to open up dialogue, even if they had to intimidate with massive fleets to force either side to talk. It's not like there would have been massive losses either -- the Geth were very undeveloped, and the Turians had the largest fleet in Citadel space at the time.

Billions of lives could have been saved, and the Citadel would have powerful AI allies.

Screw the Council. I'm glad I let those pricks die.

In Citadel Space, creating AI is illegal so the Quarians wouldn't have created and used Geth en masse in the first place. The Quarian homeworld was beyond the Veil; beyond Citadel Space jurisdiction.

The Quarians did not develop the Geth to be sentient on purpose, if you read the Wiki. They added more and more advanced functions so the Geth could perform more complex labor, and eventually, it ended in sentience. I understand that AI is illegal and that the Quarians shouldn't have tried to wipe out the Geth. But, the Council sitting with their thumbs up their ass while billions of Quarians died, while they easily could have intervened and weeded out a non-violent solution, is nothing short of the greatest crime committed in the ME universe.

Several problems with this. The Council and Citadel races
always had issues with AI, and the Geth cemented it. No way would they
have at all allied themselves with the Geth, as the dominant sentiment
is that an AI, no matter how intelligent or sapient, is a subserviant
machine. The Geth weren't at all intimidated by war. They don't feel
fear, or awe, or shock -- so the best that could have been hoped for
would be a war-scarred Rannoch instead of the place that the Geth are
carefully cultivating for the Quarians' eventual return. That makes me
wonder how that'll work out, and hopefully we see it in our 'lifetime'
(well, Shepard's already lived two lives, but you get the idea
:3). Will the Quarians open negotiations and the Geth will welcome the
Creators home? Will Xen and the pro-war Quarians actually end up waging
a war of reclamation that doesn't need to happen?

You go on
about how the Quarians were faced with near extinction -- if the
Council had listened to the Quarians and put down the Geth, how would
that NOT be extinction?

I think you're missing a few things in the story of the Quarian exile. The Geth weren't mindless killing machines without regard for life -- the Quarians were actively warring against the Geth, the Geth acted in self-defense, and they won the conflict. I'm sure billions of sentients died on either side of the war. This entire massacre could have been easily avoided with a massive Citadel fleet to force negotiations -- the Citadel fleet, I would assume, would be vastly superior to the only recently sentient Geth, and non-council fleets of the Quarians. They could have forced peace talks, and perhaps used force when necessary. They wouldn't have come to the rescue of the Quarians by killing all the Geth -- that would be genocide. But, they could have saved millions of lives, and the Council essentially sided with the Geth by refusing to deal with the situation.

The counsil are ass holes, basically. Screw those guys.

[LucidStrike]

mcvxiii wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

The quarians wanted cheap labor, so they researched heavily into advanced AI. It worked for a while until the AI (the geth) became self aware.

Well that is what any techological advancement is, a cheap and efficient means to and end. If the robots in car manufacturing facility became self-aware would we grant them the same rights as human beings or would we shut them down and attempt to remove that bit? My money would be on the latter. I really don't know how I would react if my microwave, dishwasher, coffee maker, washing machine, clothes dryer, computer, tv, and roomba starting asking themselves philosophical questions -- most likely I would unplug them and contact the manfacturers.

I don't think that this is a black and white question of who is good and who is bad. It is a matter of perspective and how both reacted is understandable when looked at the situation from each perspective.

No. NO. Stop it. Just because you can understand or rationalize something doesn't make it reasonable. Lots of white supremacists come from poor backgrounds and are told that it's the fault of the non-whites. That doesn't make being a white supremacist a reasonable thing.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:05 .

[AngryTigerP]

blank1 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

blank1 wrote...

The real bad guys here are the Council species. They basically told billions of Quarians, "Too bad, deal with it." Then they all died. It was basically a Citadel sanctioned near-extinction event. There easily could have been Council intervention on a scale much smaller than full scale war to open up dialogue, even if they had to intimidate with massive fleets to force either side to talk. It's not like there would have been massive losses either -- the Geth were very undeveloped, and the Turians had the largest fleet in Citadel space at the time.

Billions of lives could have been saved, and the Citadel would have powerful AI allies.

Screw the Council. I'm glad I let those pricks die.

In Citadel Space, creating AI is illegal so the Quarians wouldn't have created and used Geth en masse in the first place. The Quarian homeworld was beyond the Veil; beyond Citadel Space jurisdiction.

The Quarians did not develop the Geth to be sentient on purpose, if you read the Wiki. They added more and more advanced functions so the Geth could perform more complex labor, and eventually, it ended in sentience. I understand that AI is illegal and that the Quarians shouldn't have tried to wipe out the Geth. But, the Council sitting with their thumbs up their ass while billions of Quarians died, while they easily could have intervened and weeded out a non-violent solution, is nothing short of the greatest crime committed in the ME universe.

Several problems with this. The Council and Citadel races
always had issues with AI, and the Geth cemented it. No way would they
have at all allied themselves with the Geth, as the dominant sentiment
is that an AI, no matter how intelligent or sapient, is a subserviant
machine. The Geth weren't at all intimidated by war. They don't feel
fear, or awe, or shock -- so the best that could have been hoped for
would be a war-scarred Rannoch instead of the place that the Geth are
carefully cultivating for the Quarians' eventual return. That makes me
wonder how that'll work out, and hopefully we see it in our 'lifetime'
(well, Shepard's already lived two lives, but you get the idea
:3). Will the Quarians open negotiations and the Geth will welcome the
Creators home? Will Xen and the pro-war Quarians actually end up waging
a war of reclamation that doesn't need to happen?

You go on
about how the Quarians were faced with near extinction -- if the
Council had listened to the Quarians and put down the Geth, how would
that NOT be extinction?

I think you're missing a few things in the story of the Quarian exile. The Geth weren't mindless killing machines without regard for life -- the Quarians were actively warring against the Geth, the Geth acted in self-defense, and they won the conflict. I'm sure billions of sentients died on either side of the war. This entire massacre could have been easily avoided with a massive Citadel fleet to force negotiations -- the Citadel fleet, I would assume, would be vastly superior to the only recently sentient Geth, and non-council fleets of the Quarians. They could have forced peace talks, and perhaps used force when necessary. They wouldn't have come to the rescue of the Quarians by killing all the Geth -- that would be genocide. But, they could have saved millions of lives, and the Council essentially sided with the Geth by refusing to deal with the situation.

The counsil are ass holes, basically. Screw those guys.

But you still think that the Geth would have been intimidated. They wouldn't have. A species at the dawn of its sapience not only has its creators brutally try to put it down, but now even more of these beings show up with guns pointed at their faces (or hubs, if you will)? No, I don't think the Geth would have been very understanding if their brutal masters had a fleet show up on the latter's side. They would simply have seen organics as cruel, anti-synthetic lifeforms, out to put them down.

[blank1]

I think that your assumption is that the Geth's thinking would have been universally brutal and cruel, which I believe is a fallacy. If they were sentient, but still purely logical machine constructs that they were concerned with their own survival, it would only be logical given that sentiment to do as a vastly superior force wishes.

Of course, the Council fleet would have had to have the balls to vaporize some Geth from orbit, but also to give deterrents to Quarians who insisted on war as well. The Citadel fleet could have done it, given their vast superiority to either Quarian or Geth military forces at the specific time.

Also, a logical machine construct would have been able to tell if a solution would have been probable to work -- it likely would have involved carving up Quarian territory, or finding the Geth a new homeworld suitable for their needs. Regardless, billions of Quarian and Geth lives would have been spared. This is a more logical, and better, solution if either species is concerned about their own survival.

Modifié par blank1, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:12 .

[Kefkatic]

As it was put in the game, the Quarians flipped out when they realised Geth were sapient and tried to eliminate them, as how they were using them was essentially slavery. However, it was too late and the Geth fought back. They had some good intentions, but it was simply too late to do anything about it. Makes you wonder what would have happened if they had accepted the Geth as a sapient species and allowed them to form their own colony or something.

[Swank Baron]

LucidStrike wrote...

Swank Baron wrote...

Geth are AI, everything they do is for self-preservation and promotion. Same could be said for most races but it is different when you have an AI who calculates every possibility, even the ones that are unethical.

Oh, Jeopardy. What is unfounded conjecture?

Not really, Legion tells you the Geth will not hesitate to fight other races if they get in their way or it is needed to meet their goal. They think in a completely logical way with disregard for morals. If their goals do not end up involving other races they are fine, but that's a big if.