119 réponses à ce sujet

[Ackillez]

The council should have been on the bounce and sent a fleet to obliterate the Geth before they got a chance to commit genocide against the Quarians. They are artificial constructs and as such have no more reasonable claim to have a right to exist than my toaster.

[hawat333]

Quarians were the architect of their own destruction. But which one are the bad guys? Neither, in the usual sense. No white and black in this story, only two grey factions. However, I think... I support the Geth. At least if the quarians will go war against them (I supported the opposite in the game), I won't be the edge of their blade in the third game. If it ever comes up.

[Shannara13]

Swank Baron wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

Swank Baron wrote...

Geth are AI, everything they do is for self-preservation and promotion. Same could be said for most races but it is different when you have an AI who calculates every possibility, even the ones that are unethical.

Oh, Jeopardy. What is unfounded conjecture?

Not really, Legion tells you the Geth will not hesitate to fight other races if they get in their way or it is needed to meet their goal. They think in a completely logical way with disregard for morals. If their goals do not end up involving other races they are fine, but that's a big if.

That fits with every other species out there. If someone interferes with them enough they won't hesitate to fight back. Why would the Geth be any different?

The Geth believe that everyone has a right to thier own beliefs and ways. As long as you aren't trying to mess with the Geth they won't mess with you.

[Shannara13]

Ackillez wrote...

The council should have been on the bounce and sent a fleet to obliterate the Geth before they got a chance to commit genocide against the Quarians. They are artificial constructs and as such have no more reasonable claim to have a right to exist than my toaster.

Why should artificial constructs have any less of a reason to exist than anyone else? Other races are just organic constructs. How someone is made doesn't matter. What matters is if they are sentient or not.

[elucid07]

Just to clear something up sapience != SENTIENCE.

The geth developed sentience, not sapience.

Sentience = awareness of one's self and the ability to grasp the concept of life and existence - to question why one exists. Consciousness.

Sapience = great wisdom/knowledge.

And in most conflict, there is no clearly defined good or bad - only differing viewpoints. It's up to the observer to draw that distinction, and the historians to record it.

Modifié par elucid07, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:30 .

[blank1]

^

lol I was thinking the same thing, but I'm not such a ****.

EDIT:

lol n@zi is bleeped out.

Modifié par blank1, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:31 .

[LucidStrike]

Swank Baron wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

Swank Baron wrote...

Geth are AI, everything they do is for self-preservation and promotion. Same could be said for most races but it is different when you have an AI who calculates every possibility, even the ones that are unethical.

Oh, Jeopardy. What is unfounded conjecture?

Not really, Legion tells you the Geth will not hesitate to fight other races if they get in their way or it is needed to meet their goal. They think in a completely logical way with disregard for morals. If their goals do not end up involving other races they are fine, but that's a big if.

Are you one of those who is 100% certain EVERY individual is greedy, murderous, and narcissistic by "nature"? <_<

Modifié par LucidStrike, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:49 .

[elucid07]

blank1 wrote...

^

lol I was thinking the same thing, but I'm not such a ****.

EDIT:

lol n@zi is bleeped out.

Wrong is wrong - sentience != sapience, was just pointing that out.

I wasn't nitpicking grammar - couldn't care less about that, but using the wrong word out of context in order to sound that little bit more SMRT is just fscking retarded.

Didn't mean to come across as an ass though

[- Kwisatz Haderach -]

No offense to ME's writers, but the story between the Geth and Quarians SCREAMS "Battlestar Galactica" if anybody knows that show they'd get the reference. Just like in Battlestar Galactica, I found myself more agreeing with the Cylons. Yes, they did exile (or in BSG's case, Destroy) the Quarian colonies. The Quarians however were enslaving them, and then attempted to destroy them when they found out they didn't want to be slaves...The geth were alive! They should have been given choices! Quarians assumed that they'd refuse to work simply given the choice, so they tried to kill them.



In my opinion, the Quarians got what they deserved, they need to accept what they did to the Geth was wrong, and move on, find a new home. The Geth were superiour, and when taken to the mat, won the fight. The Quarians were the ones committing the real war crimes...Slavery, genocide, etc.

[AngryTigerP]

- Kwisatz Haderach - wrote...

No offense to ME's writers, but the story between the Geth and Quarians SCREAMS "Battlestar Galactica" if anybody knows that show they'd get the reference. Just like in Battlestar Galactica, I found myself more agreeing with the Cylons. Yes, they did exile (or in BSG's case, Destroy) the Quarian colonies. The Quarians however were enslaving them, and then attempted to destroy them when they found out they didn't want to be slaves...The geth were alive! They should have been given choices! Quarians assumed that they'd refuse to work simply given the choice, so they tried to kill them.

In my opinion, the Quarians got what they deserved, they need to accept what they did to the Geth was wrong, and move on, find a new home. The Geth were superiour, and when taken to the mat, won the fight. The Quarians were the ones committing the real war crimes...Slavery, genocide, etc.

Please speak with Legion more. They don't neccessarily WANT Rannoch. They are taking care of it for the Creators' -- Quarians' -- return.

It wasn't slavery before the Geth were self-aware, and the Quarian reaction is... understandable, if extreme.

[AngryTigerP]

Why did it double post? I only pressed reply once...

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:38 .

[Inverness Moon]

The similarities with BSG are there, but the geth did not hunt down their creators like the cylons did. And they're also open to peace unlike the cylons. In BSG with the humanoid cylons, being more human made them vengeful like humans and such, leading to the events of BSG. The geth are not like that.

[daguest]

Qarians lost everything, and blame the geth. What do you expect from 3 centuries forced exiles ? It's understandable.
Geth, well they still remind their slave time (ask to legion about past, they have memories/recording)
There is no bad guys, just a neverending hate.

Modifié par daguest, 31 janvier 2010 - 07:49 .

[Inverness Moon]

daguest wrote...

Qarians lost everything, and blame the geth. What do you expect from 3 centuries exiles ?
Geth, well they still remind their slave time (ask to legion about past, they have memories/recording)
There is no bad guys, just a neverending hate.

No hate on the side of the geth though.

Perhaps in ME3 you will choose to support the agenda of one of the admirals, like that guy from the Qwib Qwib that supports peace with the geth.

[verskk]

It isn't like the Quarians tried to eliminate the geth because they didn't like AI life. They were doing complex VI research, but the more complex it got, the more it began to resemble AI, which is highly, highly illegal. The quarians didn't try to eliminate the geth because they couldn't handle sapience from AI on principle, but because they realized they had all inadvertently become major criminals, and thought destroying their creation was the only way to rectify that and get within the bounds of the law.



Council law was very clear on the illegality of AI programs, so the quarians were on the side of the law in trying to destroy the Geth. The law itself was the problem in that it discouraged the acceptance of sapient machine life. That isn't the Quarians' fault or the Geth's.

[Shannara13]

daguest wrote...

Qarians lost everything, and blame the geth. What do you expect from 3 centuries forced exiles ? It's understandable.
Geth, well they still remind their slave time (ask to legion about past, they have memories/recording)
There is no bad guys, just a neverending hate.

The Geth don't hate the Quarians. They are just confused and want to understand why the Quarians wanted to exterminate them. The Geth are kinda like an abused child who can't figure out what they did wrong to make thier parents hate them.

[LucidStrike]

elucid07 wrote...

blank1 wrote...

^

lol I was thinking the same thing, but I'm not such a ****.

EDIT:

lol n@zi is bleeped out.

Wrong is wrong - sentience != sapience, was just pointing that out.

I wasn't nitpicking grammar - couldn't care less about that, but using the wrong word out of context in order to sound that little bit more SMRT is just fscking retarded.

Didn't mean to come across as an ass though

We seem to be working from different conceptions of sentience and sapence.

sentience. ability to feel or perceive subjectively.

sapience. ability to apply knowledge, experience, understanding, or common sense and insight.

The Geth were sapient, and Legion is undeniably sapient.

[Inverness Moon]

Shannara13 wrote...

daguest wrote...

Qarians lost everything, and blame the geth. What do you expect from 3 centuries forced exiles ? It's understandable.
Geth, well they still remind their slave time (ask to legion about past, they have memories/recording)
There is no bad guys, just a neverending hate.

The Geth don't hate the Quarians. They are just confused and want to understand why the Quarians wanted to exterminate them. The Geth are kinda like an abused child who can't figure out what they did wrong to make thier parents hate them.

When you say it like that it just makes the whole situation even more sad.

[marshalleck]

Shannara13 wrote...

daguest wrote...

Qarians lost everything, and blame the geth. What do you expect from 3 centuries forced exiles ? It's understandable.
Geth, well they still remind their slave time (ask to legion about past, they have memories/recording)
There is no bad guys, just a neverending hate.

The Geth don't hate the Quarians. They are just confused and want to understand why the Quarians wanted to exterminate them. The Geth are kinda like an abused child who can't figure out what they did wrong to make thier parents hate them.

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks, which were nothing more than VI representations of quarians. That suggests the geth have some capacity for vindictiveness.

They're also quite a bit more advanced than being abused children. Legion is quite intelligent and insightful.

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 janvier 2010 - 08:00 .

[Wintermist]

Oh hell, I remember the old discussion in the Mass Effect 1 forums way back.

[Inverness Moon]

marshalleck wrote...

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks, which were nothing more than VI representations of quarians. That suggests the geth have some capacity for vindictiveness.

But do you know if this was done intentionally because if the value to quarians or if it was collateral damage? And where did you learn this from anyway?

[marshalleck]

Inverness Moon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks, which were nothing more than VI representations of quarians. That suggests the geth have some capacity for vindictiveness.

But do you know if this was done intentionally because if the value to quarians or if it was collateral damage? And where did you learn this from anyway?

Quarian religion codex entry. No motive is given for its destruction other than that the geth destroyed it during their rebellion.

I'm not saying the geth are the "bad guys." What I am saying is that they seem fully capable of understanding the nature of their existence and the reason for the conflict. The fact that they even created Legion to be a sort of emmisary is proof of that.

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 janvier 2010 - 08:08 .

[Nimander]

To put it simply: Neither one are bad guys. Both have done some bad things.



The Quarians were wrong to respond with an evidently self-aware Geth by trying to destroy them. It's understandable -- they panicked and hoped there were very few. Wrong decision both ethically and as it turned out, long-term.



The Geth were wrong as well in how they responded. Self defense is quite fine. But if you read some of the lore, it's pretty evident that the Geth did what we would consider war crimes, targeting women and children and so forth. This was wrong as well.



Basically both made mistakes, but neither are evil monsters. It's getting both sides to see this that is the issue.

[XyleJKH]

Hmm well I bet something like this may happen. Later in history Geth may gain a peace treaty with the rest of the galactic community. However there will be huge prejudices.

Another thing... what of the ships that go through the veil? They never return? Thing is Tali explained why they attacked the Geth, as they do not have the same needs as organics and an eventual war would ensue. However, they still treated the geth like machines, instead of sapient species. Its kind of like the Matrix. Machines fought back once their existence was threatened. I am sure there will be some peace with the Geth in the next one... assuming you make good decisions

[marshalleck]

I guess those ships that never return may have fallen victim to the heretics. Or perhaps they were broadly perceived by the geth to have been a threat, in which case they would have been destroyed as Legion freely admits.