119 réponses à ce sujet

[Peer of the Empire]

It was retconned; realistically AI are too dangerous to have around.  Although the geth are weak for gameplay purposes.

Don't take lessons from this and apply to real life, kids, if we get a real Skynet >

[Gvaz]

Quarians are all pissy because they're like THEYRE NOT REAL THEY"RE MACHINES, yet they're "alive" as much as anyone else.

[marshalleck]

Nimander wrote...

The Geth were wrong as well in how they responded. Self defense is quite fine. But if you read some of the lore, it's pretty evident that the Geth did what we would consider war crimes, targeting women and children and so forth. This was wrong as well.

Basically both made mistakes, but neither are evil monsters. It's getting both sides to see this that is the issue.

It's interesting that Legion mentions the quarian homeworld is being preserved as one giant memorial, and compares it to memorials back here on Earth that serve to remind everyone of the cost of war and related atrocities.

Philosophically enlightened geth. It's just the development they needed.

[Ackillez]

Shannara13 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

The council should have been on the bounce and sent a fleet to obliterate the Geth before they got a chance to commit genocide against the Quarians. They are artificial constructs and as such have no more reasonable claim to have a right to exist than my toaster.

Why should artificial constructs have any less of a reason to exist than anyone else? Other races are just organic constructs. How someone is made doesn't matter. What matters is if they are sentient or not.

Glad you asked.

Artificial sentience isn't actually sentience at all, it's a programming sequence whose results are similiar or identical to the sentience displayed by sentient beings (like humans). Fundamentally, the machine acts as it is programmed to, even if the programming is sophisticated enough to display self-conscience and adaptive behavior.

Now, I see you making the argument that 'other races are just organic constructs'. It's an interesting thought, but ultimately a fruitless one. If humans are simply organic constructs, and our actions, minds and thought-processes simply the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses in our brains and nervous systems, then self-determination is an illusion and humans are not in control of their own selves. If we accept this, we must also accept all-encompassing predestination, since anyone who can perfectly monitor the physical structure of your brain could also perfectly predict how you would act in any given situation.

Suffice to say, I don't accept the notion that humans have no free will and are ultimately guided solely by chemical reactions in their brains. Because I hold that humans have free will, and machines can't have free will, humans have a right to existance but machines don't, since the machines can never achieve substantial self-determination.

[Shannara13]

marshalleck wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

daguest wrote...

Qarians lost everything, and blame the geth. What do you expect from 3 centuries forced exiles ? It's understandable.
Geth, well they still remind their slave time (ask to legion about past, they have memories/recording)
There is no bad guys, just a neverending hate.

The Geth don't hate the Quarians. They are just confused and want to understand why the Quarians wanted to exterminate them. The Geth are kinda like an abused child who can't figure out what they did wrong to make thier parents hate them.

The geth destroyed the ancestor databanks, which were nothing more than VI representations of quarians. That suggests the geth have some capacity for vindictiveness.

They're also quite a bit more advanced than being abused children. Legion is quite intelligent and insightful.

I should clarify. The Geth are more like someone who was once an abused child. I am not saying they are still like children. Just that they are somewhat similar to an adult that has been traumatized by the abuse of a parent. Which can often lead to some vindictive reactions.

[rumination888]

blank1 wrote...

The Quarians did not develop the Geth to be sentient on purpose, if you read the Wiki. They added more and more advanced functions so the Geth could perform more complex labor, and eventually, it ended in sentience. I understand that AI is illegal and that the Quarians shouldn't have tried to wipe out the Geth. But, the Council sitting with their thumbs up their ass while billions of Quarians died, while they easily could have intervened and weeded out a non-violent solution, is nothing short of the greatest crime committed in the ME universe.

The Quarians are not a part of Citadel Space.
It would be like if the US bombed Mexico and then people blamed Canada for not intervening. Or if you get mugged and then blamed the passerbys for not helping. How stupid is that?

[blank1]

The Quarians were a part of Citadel space, actually. Their embassy was removed after they petitioned the Council for help.

[marshalleck]

Ackillez wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

The council should have been on the bounce and sent a fleet to obliterate the Geth before they got a chance to commit genocide against the Quarians. They are artificial constructs and as such have no more reasonable claim to have a right to exist than my toaster.

Why should artificial constructs have any less of a reason to exist than anyone else? Other races are just organic constructs. How someone is made doesn't matter. What matters is if they are sentient or not.

Glad you asked.

Artificial sentience isn't actually sentience at all, it's a programming sequence whose results are similiar or identical to the sentience displayed by sentient beings (like humans). Fundamentally, the machine acts as it is programmed to, even if the programming is sophisticated enough to display self-conscience and adaptive behavior.

Now, I see you making the argument that 'other races are just organic constructs'. It's an interesting thought, but ultimately a fruitless one. If humans are simply organic constructs, and our actions, minds and thought-processes simply the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses in our brains and nervous systems, then self-determination is an illusion and humans are not in control of their own selves. If we accept this, we must also accept all-encompassing predestination, since anyone who can perfectly monitor the physical structure of your brain could also perfectly predict how you would act in any given situation.

Suffice to say, I don't accept the notion that humans have no free will and are ultimately guided solely by chemical reactions in their brains. Because I hold that humans have free will, and machines can't have free will, humans have a right to existance but machines don't, since the machines can never achieve substantial self-determination.

Ah, right. The "we have souls and they don't" argument.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, the Quarians tried to destroy the Geth rather than acknowledging their sentience and attempting to make peace. I think the the three admirals at Tali's trial (not counting her aunt) in the Migrant Fleet pretty much embody the different Quarian viewpoints. One wants war, one wants peace and feels the Quarians wronged the Geth (true), and the other wants to enslave them again.



What the Quarians did was wrong, but they've basically paid for their sins at this point. It sounds like the Geth don't necessarily want to go to war with organics, and I hope the two civilizations can make peace eventually. Speaking of which, I supported the peace-making admiral's position when speaking to him.

[blank1]

You can easily argue that a very complex set of algorithms is the reason that the human mind is self-aware. There really isn't anything "mystical" about it. If an artificial construct could develop its own set of algorithmic equations just as complex, it could easily qualify to be truly sentient.

[rumination888]

blank1 wrote...

The Quarians were a part of Citadel space, actually. Their embassy was removed after they petitioned the Council for help.

Wow, if thats true then the Council has some ****ed up politics.

[blank1]

rumination888 wrote...

blank1 wrote...

The Quarians were a part of Citadel space, actually. Their embassy was removed after they petitioned the Council for help.

Wow, if thats true then the Council has some ****ed up politics.

That's exactly what I've been saying. The Council are a bunch of ass holes. In fact, the reason I let them die and enjoyed it (Chose the full Renegade option even though my Shep is Paragon) was because karma is a b!tch. They basically gave a Quarian extinction a green light despite the fact that they were a Citadel species.

[Inverness Moon]

Ackillez wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

The council should have been on the bounce and sent a fleet to obliterate the Geth before they got a chance to commit genocide against the Quarians. They are artificial constructs and as such have no more reasonable claim to have a right to exist than my toaster.

Why should artificial constructs have any less of a reason to exist than anyone else? Other races are just organic constructs. How someone is made doesn't matter. What matters is if they are sentient or not.

Glad you asked.

Artificial sentience isn't actually sentience at all, it's a programming sequence whose results are similiar or identical to the sentience displayed by sentient beings (like humans). Fundamentally, the machine acts as it is programmed to, even if the programming is sophisticated enough to display self-conscience and adaptive behavior.

Now, I see you making the argument that 'other races are just organic constructs'. It's an interesting thought, but ultimately a fruitless one. If humans are simply organic constructs, and our actions, minds and thought-processes simply the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses in our brains and nervous systems, then self-determination is an illusion and humans are not in control of their own selves. If we accept this, we must also accept all-encompassing predestination, since anyone who can perfectly monitor the physical structure of your brain could also perfectly predict how you would act in any given situation.

Suffice to say, I don't accept the notion that humans have no free will and are ultimately guided solely by chemical reactions in their brains. Because I hold that humans have free will, and machines can't have free will, humans have a right to existance but machines don't, since the machines can never achieve substantial self-determination.

I specifically remember Legion saying that geth believe all sentient species have the right to self-determinate. It's amusing that he has better values than you.

Anyhow, your argument complicates the idea of free will. I would indeed accept that any thing that can perfectly monitor and interpret the physical structure of my brain could perfectly predict how I would act. But then, how does that limit free will? Or perhaps you're trying to avoid the idea that your will is not as free and special as you might think by elevating yourself above things like machines?

Edit: Basically when people make arguments like yours I think it all boils down to how some people want to believe that humans are special somehow because of souls or some other religious thing and as a result believe that machines can't be sentient or don't deserve certain rights that I would believe all sentient creatures should.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 31 janvier 2010 - 08:35 .

[xMister Vx]

Inverness Moon wrote...

I specifically remember Legion saying that geth believe all sentient species have the right to self-determinate. It's amusing that he has better values than you.

Anyhow, your argument complicates the idea of free will. I would indeed accept that any thing that can perfectly monitor and interpret the physical structure of my brain could perfectly predict how I would act. But then, how does that limit free will? Or perhaps you're trying to avoid the idea that your will is not as free and special as you might think by elevating yourself above things like machines?

I agree with Moon here. I would stress that it's just the quoted poster's subjective interpretation. BioWare certainly aims for (and has stated it in some interviews) that Mass Effect is about very different races interacting in a galaxy, and the outcome depends a lot on your own actions. They certainly treat these races as equal (even if they give the Renegades options to deny it), and it's the creators' opinions that matter in the end.

The topic title is incorrect. The only bad guys are the Reapers. The rest have different values. Gray and Gray Morality is what they're aiming at.

Modifié par xMister Vx, 31 janvier 2010 - 08:40 .

[Myrmedus]

Neither are bad. It's the archetypical man vs. machine conflict: neither side is bad it just fears and misunderstands the other.

[blank1]

I personally believe that the Geth would allow a free and sovereign Quarian nation to exist on their home planet if they would demilitarize. At this point in time, though I share a deep sympathy for the Quarians (In a fictional "you're not actually real" sort of way I guess?), I feel that much of their current exile is self-imposed because of war hawks on the Admiralty board.

It's certainly conjecture, but from interacting with Legion, I detected that the Geth might be developed the equivalent to "daddy issues."

Modifié par blank1, 31 janvier 2010 - 08:43 .

[Inverness Moon]

blank1 wrote...

I personally believe that the Geth would allow a free and sovereign Quarian nation to exist on their home planet if they would demilitarize.

It's certainly conjecture, but from interacting with Legion, I detected that the Geth might be developed the equivalent to "daddy issues."

I don't believe the geth would require them to demilitarize. As Legion said, the geth would need additional data to believe that coexistance is possible or desirable. But I don't think the geth would realistically expect the quarians to demilitarize.

[Swank Baron]

LucidStrike wrote...
Are you one of those who is 100% certain EVERY individual is greedy, murderous, and narcissistic by "nature"? {smilie}

{smilie}

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting when you say this. I'm simply saying an AI has no use for anyone who interferes or slightly hinders their progress and won't continue. The Geth do not have a nature they simply have programmed logic. That makes them a danger to all other species.

Shannara13 wrote...

That fits with every other species out there. If someone interferes with them enough they won't hesitate to fight back. Why would the Geth be any different?

The Geth believe that everyone has a right to their own beliefs and ways. As long as you aren't trying to mess with the Geth they won't mess with you.

Yes, but the Geth are less morally bound to it and act as a unified body. Where most species on the Citadel have to obey the governed law and live by certain moral standards the Geth have no reason to obey law and act purely on their own goals. They have no ethical conscious that would stop them from doing harsh things. Most organic races act in favor of their own species and selves but are not directed to act in immoral directions as a whole since they they think individually.

[Inverness Moon]

Swank Baron wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...
Are you one of those who is 100% certain EVERY individual is greedy, murderous, and narcissistic by "nature"? {smilie}

{smilie}

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting when you say this. I'm simply saying an AI has no use for anyone who interferes or slightly hinders their progress and won't continue. The Geth do not have a nature they simply have programmed logic. That makes them a danger to all other species.

Shannara13 wrote...

That fits with every other species out there. If someone interferes with them enough they won't hesitate to fight back. Why would the Geth be any different?

The Geth believe that everyone has a right to their own beliefs and ways. As long as you aren't trying to mess with the Geth they won't mess with you.

Yes, but the Geth are less morally bound to it and act as a unified body. Where most species on the Citadel have to obey the governed law and live by certain moral standards the Geth have no reason to obey law and act purely on their own goals. They have no ethical conscious that would stop them from doing harsh things. Most organic races act in favor of their own species and selves but are not directed to act in immoral directions as a whole since they they think individually.

Geth would obey the law if doing so would have positive consequences like peace that could help them as a whole, or if not doing so would have negative consequences like war. Morals aren't really relevant.

[Bad Byte]

PathofDaggers wrote...

I'd go with neither, but did any one else get a Battlestar Galactica vibe from this whole situation? I dont know how the original series was cause Ive never watched it but still, just remembering the openings of the new series' episodes seems like Bioware got isperation for it from BSG

When Legion talked about the old machines BSG's Cavil came to mind, the old human model who is stuck in his ways and had no problem with lobotomizing the Raiders

[Swank Baron]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Geth would obey the law if doing so would have positive consequences like peace that could help them as a whole, or if not doing so would have negative consequences like war. Morals aren't really relevant.

That's my point, and that makes them a threat to organic races.

[Jigero]

I think you are all missing the point, with throwing out slavery and what not, The Geth never had a problem with working for the Quarians, The Geth only wanted to know if they had a soul, and the Quarians then over reacted and tried to destroy them which then almost pushed the Quarians to extinction. I believe in their own way the Geth still "love" their creators and woefully wish to live with them in peace. But the Quarians have become too short sighted in this, destroying them and using them for hideous experiments. The Geth want peace but they cannot grant it until the Quarians understand peace themselves, the Geth understand that all the animosity, hate and hard feelings needs to be gone from the Quarians before they can ever really achieve peace. Or this will just start all over again. The Geth are really the victim here, they are only doing what they must to survive, if the Quarians want to fight then Geth must protect them selves even if that means the extinction of the Quarians, But if the Quarians want real peace then the Geth are more then happy to oblige.

Also saying the Geth don't have morals is woefully stupid, they have morals, just in ways you don't understand, Geth don't experiment on quarians, they don't torture quarians, The Geth even go as far as cleaning the quarians home world and making suitable for the Quarians should they ever ask for peace. The Geth also understand that war is unessary and only negative and know that fighting war is bad for both races, But will fight war if it means their survival.

Modifié par Jigero, 01 février 2010 - 12:38 .

[marshalleck]

The geth want non-interference. Legion makes no bones about what will happen if someone attempts to meddle with their self-determination.

That doesn't mean the non-heretic geth are going to start a war, but they are certainly willing to fight one.

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 février 2010 - 12:34 .

[Homebound]

Litos456 wrote...

None of them are bad guys. It's a simple misunderstanding.

[Garuda One]

Ackillez wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

The council should have been on the bounce and sent a fleet to obliterate the Geth before they got a chance to commit genocide against the Quarians. They are artificial constructs and as such have no more reasonable claim to have a right to exist than my toaster.

Why should artificial constructs have any less of a reason to exist than anyone else? Other races are just organic constructs. How someone is made doesn't matter. What matters is if they are sentient or not.

Glad you asked.

Artificial sentience isn't actually sentience at all, it's a programming sequence whose results are similiar or identical to the sentience displayed by sentient beings (like humans). Fundamentally, the machine acts as it is programmed to, even if the programming is sophisticated enough to display self-conscience and adaptive behavior.

Now, I see you making the argument that 'other races are just organic constructs'. It's an interesting thought, but ultimately a fruitless one. If humans are simply organic constructs, and our actions, minds and thought-processes simply the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses in our brains and nervous systems, then self-determination is an illusion and humans are not in control of their own selves. If we accept this, we must also accept all-encompassing predestination, since anyone who can perfectly monitor the physical structure of your brain could also perfectly predict how you would act in any given situation.

Suffice to say, I don't accept the notion that humans have no free will and are ultimately guided solely by chemical reactions in their brains. Because I hold that humans have free will, and machines can't have free will, humans have a right to existance but machines don't, since the machines can never achieve substantial self-determination.

I completely agree with you but one thing that we truthfully don't know until we actually do it ourselves, if AI like Legion and EDI can operate beyond there programming and not do what the programs ask them to do and eventually have a free will of there own.  Yes an AI at it's start may have programs in it to do certain things but overtime it can change and thus become like us in a sense if they don't have things blocking them, minus the metal of course they could continue to create memory in order to learn more just as we do in our own brains with our nervous system.

These things can also appear in humans as well, we can look at sentient beings and we can see that, at least with humans we can be controlled by hypnosis and we have our own programming as well, which is to say what our parents taught us and our fundamentals as well as what is inside us, our instinct. We can follow them by heart or choose a different path.

Modifié par Garuda One, 01 février 2010 - 12:49 .