119 réponses à ce sujet

[Guaritor]

Shannara13 wrote...

It seems to me that the Quarians are actually the bad guys since the Geth were just defending themselves. They however seem to be unwilling to accept that the war was all thier fault and that they started it.

Im just glad I had the paragon option available when tali was pointing the gun at legion... i dunno if i coulda actually taken one of their sides in that fight...

[Jigero]

Ackillez wrote...

Shannara13 wrote...

Ackillez wrote...

The council should have been on the bounce and sent a fleet to obliterate the Geth before they got a chance to commit genocide against the Quarians. They are artificial constructs and as such have no more reasonable claim to have a right to exist than my toaster.

Why should artificial constructs have any less of a reason to exist than anyone else? Other races are just organic constructs. How someone is made doesn't matter. What matters is if they are sentient or not.

Glad you asked.

Artificial sentience isn't actually sentience at all, it's a programming sequence whose results are similiar or identical to the sentience displayed by sentient beings (like humans). Fundamentally, the machine acts as it is programmed to, even if the programming is sophisticated enough to display self-conscience and adaptive behavior.

Now, I see you making the argument that 'other races are just organic constructs'. It's an interesting thought, but ultimately a fruitless one. If humans are simply organic constructs, and our actions, minds and thought-processes simply the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses in our brains and nervous systems, then self-determination is an illusion and humans are not in control of their own selves. If we accept this, we must also accept all-encompassing predestination, since anyone who can perfectly monitor the physical structure of your brain could also perfectly predict how you would act in any given situation.

Suffice to say, I don't accept the notion that humans have no free will and are ultimately guided solely by chemical reactions in their brains. Because I hold that humans have free will, and machines can't have free will, humans have a right to existance but machines don't, since the machines can never achieve substantial self-determination.

Actually you are very very very wrong on so many levels, AI mimics real intellagents, Sentients is the ability to quetions one's purpose, a computer just does what it's program demands, the Geth are sentient because they can question this, when they do some thing they are able to ask "why?". They are able to understand they are more then their programing intails. An animal will hunt for food, mark it's territory and go to sleep, but does it every go "why am I doing this?" "what is it's purpose, survival maybe, but what is the point of me surviving?".

Humans have programing as well, we have things hard wired into us that we are able to do with out thinking and must do inorder to function, but on top of that we also have the ability to questions these things and ponder our porpose.

Geth have this to, they don't ask why because they are told by their porgraming, they ask why because they want to.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

I remember arguing about this with Tali back in ME 1. In my opinion, there would not have been a war if the Quarians didn't try to oppress and kill of an entire race (Geth). I am really hoping that the Quarians will be able to cohabitate with the "real" Geth and not the heretics in ME 3.

Inverness Moon wrote...

Anyhow, your argument complicates
the idea of free will. I would indeed accept that any thing that can
perfectly monitor and interpret the physical structure of my brain could
perfectly predict how I would act. But then, how does that limit free
will? Or perhaps you're trying to avoid the idea that your will is not
as free and special as you might think by elevating yourself above
things like machines?

You can't have free will if the book of your life has already been completed and codexed. You do not have free will if you cannot deviate from the path that someone knows you will take.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 01 février 2010 - 02:24 .

[marshalleck]

The geth (not the heretic geth) don't want to cohabit with the quarians. They are preserving the homeworld until they can complete their Dyson sphere and upload themselves to one huge networked mind. They want to pursue their own path.

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 février 2010 - 02:28 .

[Chimerical Man]

Both erred, neither are at fault presently. Except the geth heretics, but that's a different matter entirely.

The quarians made a mistake. There was little chance of them forseeing what happened, and when it did, they did the appropriate thing and tried to put out the fire before it grew. After having that backfire on them, it is perfectly understandable that they would want to exterminate their error and take their homeworld back.

The geth, upon reaching AI status, defended themselves, which is...understandable, and afterward the geth themselves merely vanished behind the Veil. The heretics caused their own stir due to Reaper interference.

Regardless of who is the offender or defender, I think the quarians should be the ones receiving the support. The geth are synthetics, quarians are organics. Legion can say all he wants about the geth's non-hostile disposition, but synthetic AIs and organics never mix well.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

marshalleck wrote...

The geth (not the heretic geth) don't want to cohabit with the quarians. They are preserving the homeworld until they can complete their Dyson sphere and upload themselves to one huge networked mind. They want to pursue their own path.

I meant get along in the same system without shots being fired.

[kennyme2]

The Quarians chose to attempt genocide rather than negotiation so that was pretty idiotic of them. All the Geth were doing was trying to live. Can you blame them for that? Now were learn that true Geth like Legion don't have interest in turning people into husks. I'm gonna have to side with the Geth even though the Quarians are my favorite species.

[I Vigil I]

The Quarians were just scared that the Geth would rebel against them so they attacked first.  Now they just need to work it out which doesnt seem likely.  Quarians dont understand what the geth have become yet.

[Shannara13]

I Vigil I wrote...

The Quarians were just scared that the Geth would rebel against them so they attacked first.  Now they just need to work it out which doesnt seem likely.  Quarians dont understand what the geth have become yet.

I think they understand, they just aren't willing to accept it. Because if they do then it means that they tried to commit genocide against another species and no one really wants to believe that about themselves.

[MerrickShep]

The Heretics!

[Ackillez]

It's an interesting discussion and I appreciate the responses I've had to my posts.

Inverness Moon wrote...

I specifically remember Legion
saying that geth believe all sentient species have the right to
self-determinate. It's amusing that he has better values than you.

Anyhow,
your argument complicates the idea of free will. I would indeed accept
that any thing that can perfectly monitor and interpret the physical
structure of my brain could perfectly predict how I would act. But
then, how does that limit free will? Or perhaps you're trying to avoid
the idea that your will is not as free and special as you might think
by elevating yourself above things like machines?

Edit: Basically when people make arguments like yours I think it
all boils down to how some people want to believe that humans are
special somehow because of souls or some other religious thing and as a
result believe that machines can't be sentient or don't deserve certain
rights that I would believe all sentient creatures should.

Insightful post. But you accept the ideas of the philosophy of anthropic mechanism, that is, (stolen from wikipedia) "that everything about human beings can be completely explained in
mechanical terms, as surely as can everything about clockwork or
gasoline engines." I can't refute this point but you're going to have to realize that it's a pretty radical position to take. For example this creates some serious problems about the morality of our current system of crime and punishment- or for that matter the entire concept of morality itself.

Still- I can't prove that I have a soul, or that my actions and thought-processes can't be predicted by someone with complete knowledge of the physical properties of my brain, but I'm fairly certain I can prove that an AI doesn't have a soul and that its 'thought-processes' CAN be accurately predicted by someone with complete knowledge of all its physical properties. Essentially, I think it's possible that AI research can theoretically provide us with perfect simulations of sentience and intelligence, but they'd be just that- simulations.

Just because their code is adaptive doesn't give the Geth sentience. I believe that at its core, they are ultimately driven by the parameters their Quarian creators set. I'm not thereby saying anyone intended to create the Geth, likely it was an oversight that had unforeseen consequences. But the source of all their 'decisions' must logically always be traceable to their original programming. Thus I maintain that the geth have no free will and can't be treated as sentient beings.

[Giantevilhead]

Ackillez wrote...

It's an interesting discussion and I appreciate the responses I've had to my posts.

Inverness Moon wrote...

I specifically remember Legion
saying that geth believe all sentient species have the right to
self-determinate. It's amusing that he has better values than you.

Anyhow,
your argument complicates the idea of free will. I would indeed accept
that any thing that can perfectly monitor and interpret the physical
structure of my brain could perfectly predict how I would act. But
then, how does that limit free will? Or perhaps you're trying to avoid
the idea that your will is not as free and special as you might think
by elevating yourself above things like machines?

Edit: Basically when people make arguments like yours I think it
all boils down to how some people want to believe that humans are
special somehow because of souls or some other religious thing and as a
result believe that machines can't be sentient or don't deserve certain
rights that I would believe all sentient creatures should.

Insightful post. But you accept the ideas of the philosophy of anthropic mechanism, that is, (stolen from wikipedia) "that everything about human beings can be completely explained in
mechanical terms, as surely as can everything about clockwork or
gasoline engines." I can't refute this point but you're going to have to realize that it's a pretty radical position to take. For example this creates some serious problems about the morality of our current system of crime and punishment- or for that matter the entire concept of morality itself.

Still- I can't prove that I have a soul, or that my actions and thought-processes can't be predicted by someone with complete knowledge of the physical properties of my brain, but I'm fairly certain I can prove that an AI doesn't have a soul and that its 'thought-processes' CAN be accurately predicted by someone with complete knowledge of all its physical properties. Essentially, I think it's possible that AI research can theoretically provide us with perfect simulations of sentience and intelligence, but they'd be just that- simulations.

Just because their code is adaptive doesn't give the Geth sentience. I believe that at its core, they are ultimately driven by the parameters their Quarian creators set. I'm not thereby saying anyone intended to create the Geth, likely it was an oversight that had unforeseen consequences. But the source of all their 'decisions' must logically always be traceable to their original programming. Thus I maintain that the geth have no free will and can't be treated as sentient beings.

Except you can't be certain that you can accurately predict the thought processes of an AI if you have complete knowledge of its physical properties.

[IronVanguard]

You know, the non-heretic Geth's life view is basically a logical form of live and let live the way Legion goes on about everyone having to right to their view of life.

Cool, man. Cool.

Plus, the Geth are like, a super demoncracy.
The Quarian are like a toned down police state with a few back ups for the civilians.

Modifié par IronVanguard, 01 février 2010 - 05:53 .

[Inverness Moon]

Ackillez wrote...

It's an interesting discussion and I appreciate the responses I've had to my posts.

Insightful post. But you accept the ideas of the philosophy of anthropic mechanism, that is, (stolen from wikipedia) "that everything about human beings can be completely explained in
mechanical terms, as surely as can everything about clockwork or
gasoline engines." I can't refute this point but you're going to have to realize that it's a pretty radical position to take. For example this creates some serious problems about the morality of our current system of crime and punishment- or for that matter the entire concept of morality itself.

Still- I can't prove that I have a soul, or that my actions and thought-processes can't be predicted by someone with complete knowledge of the physical properties of my brain, but I'm fairly certain I can prove that an AI doesn't have a soul and that its 'thought-processes' CAN be accurately predicted by someone with complete knowledge of all its physical properties. Essentially, I think it's possible that AI research can theoretically provide us with perfect simulations of sentience and intelligence, but they'd be just that- simulations.

Just because their code is adaptive doesn't give the Geth sentience. I believe that at its core, they are ultimately driven by the parameters their Quarian creators set. I'm not thereby saying anyone intended to create the Geth, likely it was an oversight that had unforeseen consequences. But the source of all their 'decisions' must logically always be traceable to their original programming. Thus I maintain that the geth have no free will and can't be treated as sentient beings.

How would having this core programming disquality them from being sentient? I believe krogans have this too, in the form of instincts that are alot more intense than in other organic species.

Additionally I would consider a person's religion to similar to the programming you're talking about.

Also, you don't even know what kind of original programming the geth have, you're making an assumption. It is entirely possible that they removed things like that from their software if it ever existed.

Ultimately your defintion of sentience seems to be inaccurate. Free will is not a requirement for sentience.

Giantevilhead wrote...

Except you can't be certain that you can accurately predict the thought processes of an AI if you have complete knowledge of its physical properties.

Indeed, if you believe you can do that then I would believe the AI could do the same to you.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 février 2010 - 12:18 .

[aimlessgun]

Does it matter? They're both just potential tools or threats for humanity. You take the side most beneficial to your own interests.

[Inverness Moon]

Additionally, the codex says that the geth are sentient, so it would be rather difficult for anyone to argue that they aren't.

[LucidStrike]

Ackillez wrote...

It's an interesting discussion and I appreciate the responses I've had to my posts.

Insightful post. But you accept the ideas of the philosophy of anthropic mechanism, that is, (stolen from wikipedia) "that everything about human beings can be completely explained in
mechanical terms, as surely as can everything about clockwork or
gasoline engines." I can't refute this point but you're going to have to realize that it's a pretty radical position to take. For example this creates some serious problems about the morality of our current system of crime and punishment- or for that matter the entire concept of morality itself.

Still- I can't prove that I have a soul, or that my actions and thought-processes can't be predicted by someone with complete knowledge of the physical properties of my brain, but I'm fairly certain I can prove that an AI doesn't have a soul and that its 'thought-processes' CAN be accurately predicted by someone with complete knowledge of all its physical properties. Essentially, I think it's possible that AI research can theoretically provide us with perfect simulations of sentience and intelligence, but they'd be just that- simulations.

Just because their code is adaptive doesn't give the Geth sentience. I believe that at its core, they are ultimately driven by the parameters their Quarian creators set. I'm not thereby saying anyone intended to create the Geth, likely it was an oversight that had unforeseen consequences. But the source of all their 'decisions' must logically always be traceable to their original programming. Thus I maintain that the geth have no free will and can't be treated as sentient beings.

They are SERIOUSLY flawed. The "justice" system is based on revenge and spiteful punishment rather than conflict resolution, and most systems of "morality" are relative and therefore worthless.

'Anthropic mechanism' or whatever doesn't conflict with the concept of free will. The mind of an AI, just as the mind of any sentient being. is determinant but not predictable, chaotic. The universe is chaotic, so free will and creativity are possible: http://members.fortu...es/freeuni.html

How is your concept of core parameters different from genetics and such and the concept of instinct?

Modifié par LucidStrike, 01 février 2010 - 12:28 .

[Teivel]

They will both be strong allies against the reapers and, in time, partners in each others development and advancement. That's all i need to know, and everything my Shep wants to work towards. My interactions with legion and Tali were the opening salvo in that effort.

[MagicianCamille]

I feel sympathy for both sides. The Quarians were trying to advance their civilization with mechanized servants...there was no reason to think they'd gain consciousness. For the Geth, they were only defending themselves.



Personally, my Paragon Shepard reccomended the Quarians give up on war and focus on finding a new home, and rewrote the heretic Geth rather than destroy them. Hoping the Quarians and Geth can resolve their issues and the Geth can become a peaceful race and help defend the galaxy against the Reapers.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

LucidStrike wrote...
They are SERIOUSLY flawed. The "justice" system is based on revenge and spiteful punishment rather than conflict resolution, and most systems of "morality" are relative and therefore worthless.

Illogical leap. You're making the assertion that "justice" requires conflict resolution.

LucidStrike wrote...



'Anthropic mechanism' or whatever doesn't conflict with the
concept of free will. The mind of an AI, just as the mind of any
sentient being. is determinant but not predictable, chaotic. The
universe is chaotic, so free will and creativity are possible:
http://members.fortu...es/freeuni.html

How is
your concept of core parameters different from genetics and such and the
concept of instinct?

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/bandit.png[/smilie]

Not being able to 'correctly' measure atoms and understand why they appear random =/= chaotic universe. The articles on your link make no talk of bivalence. I enjoyed reading them, however.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 01 février 2010 - 12:40 .