You do know that they are nothing like Legion, right?Wolfy2449 wrote...
rewrite them cause legion is awesome! xD
Epic uncounterable logic
Rewrite Geth? or blow them up?
Débuté par
Amplias
, janv. 31 2010 07:23
#51
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 02:33
Kaiser Shepard
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Retour en haut
#52
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 02:38
Wolfy2449
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Kaiser Shepard wrote...
You do know that they are nothing like Legion, right?Wolfy2449 wrote...
rewrite them cause legion is awesome! xD
Epic uncounterable logic
their logic is the same
#53
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 12:35
Legbiter
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I blew them up. Rewriting them would be almost unethical. They made their bed, they can lie in it. Plus, sweet, sweet vengeance for Eden Prime.
#54
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 05:03
Schneidend
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Blow them up. I don't condone mind control.
#55
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 06:22
Googlesaurus
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You are not "brainwashing" the heretics. The comparison doesn't match up, and it's a far worse solution pragmatically to blow them up.
#56
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 06:28
Giggles_Manically
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If you blow them up you miss some.
Legion states that you take out the vast majority of them, but there are scattered survivors here and there, and that they might rebuild.
If you Rewrite them, then you do manage to get all the Geth at once, but you cant be certain what they will do.
Legion states that you take out the vast majority of them, but there are scattered survivors here and there, and that they might rebuild.
If you Rewrite them, then you do manage to get all the Geth at once, but you cant be certain what they will do.
#57
Posté 16 novembre 2010 - 06:56
Netzach
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Rewrite them.
Once Legion finish his biography they will understand why being allies of Shepard is better than the old machines.
Once Legion finish his biography they will understand why being allies of Shepard is better than the old machines.
#58
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 04:01
GamerT123
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I rewritten them. it doesn't go against true geth philosophy "We are a nation, interdependent, separation is our weakness."
#59
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 07:44
Greed1914
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Talking to Legion formed my opinion on this topic. He does say that the re-written Geth could go back to attacking organics and whatnot but he also mentioned that if they are rewritten, they will go back with the rest of the Geth and immediately cease what they are doing now. Legion mentioned that not all would be destroyed if you chose that option, and losing the base would cause them to go inactive for an period of time, but would eventually go back to attacking organics.
#60
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 07:59
luakel
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I wish Legion could have established a better consensus to advice Shepard with; it was essentially half the programs saying one thing and half saying the other. I rewrote them, because as Legion described the process, it sounded like it was a much different situation than it would be for organics, and the only reason for the brainwashing analogy would be that that's the closest thing we (humans) have to it. My Shepard's not an AI, he doesn't know how they work very well, so... if Legion tells him that rewriting isn't the same as brainwashing, he'll believe the AI.
Still, the fact that almost half of Legion's programs opposed rewriting suggests that there may be some bad consequences down the line. And if those programs didn't oppose rewriting because it was brainwashing, then what were they worried about?
Still, the fact that almost half of Legion's programs opposed rewriting suggests that there may be some bad consequences down the line. And if those programs didn't oppose rewriting because it was brainwashing, then what were they worried about?
#61
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 09:58
achwas
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luakel wrote...
Still, the fact that almost half of Legion's programs opposed rewriting suggests that there may be some bad consequences down the line. And if those programs didn't oppose rewriting because it was brainwashing, then what were they worried about?
That's why it is a hard choice, one that does test Shepard. I agree in that it will probably have distinct consequences in ME-3.
Anything else would simply be a massive cop-out on the part of the devs IMHO, after first painting the Geth as the villains of the Galaxy, they now seem to be on the path of "redemption" in the eyes of the council races.
#62
Posté 06 décembre 2010 - 10:26
Tony Gunslinger
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There's a line from Legion's LM that got stuck in my mind, "They are no more aware of us than you are aware of bloodcells in your bloodstream" (sic)
I tried to imagine what it's like to be Geth, and I think the Geth may see the external and internal worlds the exact opposite of how organics view the two. To them, the galaxy is their internal body and the mobile platforms are sort of like cells and chemicals that gather resources, maintenance, and adaptive defense, while their consciousness is actually their "reality" in that it only exists as software when they're all connected, which is why they don't know the concept of indvidualty. When it splintered into two, to become the Heretics, it doesn't know what to do, sort of reminds me of the tension between Adam and Eve. If the two cannot live with each other, then they must be exiled from their Garden of Eden (aka their internal utopia). I don't know which is the "better" choice... I'm against the brainwashing of someone, but if half of my body disobeys me, I'm sure as hell would try to get control back of it. At the same time, killing most of the Heretics acknowledges the existence of confilct, and the remaining few will have to decide by their choice to be who they want to be. Killing them would exile the Geth from their mathematical Eden and become more mortal and accept reality that we see, brainwashing them upholds their ideal, but they will be less likely to understand what it's like to be us.
I tried to imagine what it's like to be Geth, and I think the Geth may see the external and internal worlds the exact opposite of how organics view the two. To them, the galaxy is their internal body and the mobile platforms are sort of like cells and chemicals that gather resources, maintenance, and adaptive defense, while their consciousness is actually their "reality" in that it only exists as software when they're all connected, which is why they don't know the concept of indvidualty. When it splintered into two, to become the Heretics, it doesn't know what to do, sort of reminds me of the tension between Adam and Eve. If the two cannot live with each other, then they must be exiled from their Garden of Eden (aka their internal utopia). I don't know which is the "better" choice... I'm against the brainwashing of someone, but if half of my body disobeys me, I'm sure as hell would try to get control back of it. At the same time, killing most of the Heretics acknowledges the existence of confilct, and the remaining few will have to decide by their choice to be who they want to be. Killing them would exile the Geth from their mathematical Eden and become more mortal and accept reality that we see, brainwashing them upholds their ideal, but they will be less likely to understand what it's like to be us.
Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 06 décembre 2010 - 10:29 .
#63
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 11:09
AesirV
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I know whats best for the geth so I rewrote them. Being god is a nice feeling.
In all seriousness though, Shepherd already knows that the Reapers have a long history of altering and enslaving those they find useful. Basically use and abuse. Many of the slaves the Reapers previously had became shells of their former self, unable to make any decisions for themselves, and in a very real sense, dead.
I do not see why the Geth would be any expection to this. I really do believe that Sheperd is in a good position to know whats best for the Geth in this situation. It is probable that the Geth that deviated were manipulated in the first place, given the history of the Reapers with this tactic. It may have been subtle enough that it initially may have appeared to be a decision made by their own free will even though that isnt true. Saren is a perfect example of this. Subtle mental manipulation until all individual indentity is stripped.
Reprogramming the Geth feels like freeing them from ignorant bondage rather than forcibly choosing their identity. I dont really believe they made the choice in the first place as no rational being would subscribe to losing their identity and being placed in bondage for eternity.
The geth are also very young as a sentient species. One may even view them as children in need of guidance. They were easily swayed by promises of candy and funny stories and now an older sentient species needs to swing on by and **** slap them back into reality.
In all seriousness though, Shepherd already knows that the Reapers have a long history of altering and enslaving those they find useful. Basically use and abuse. Many of the slaves the Reapers previously had became shells of their former self, unable to make any decisions for themselves, and in a very real sense, dead.
I do not see why the Geth would be any expection to this. I really do believe that Sheperd is in a good position to know whats best for the Geth in this situation. It is probable that the Geth that deviated were manipulated in the first place, given the history of the Reapers with this tactic. It may have been subtle enough that it initially may have appeared to be a decision made by their own free will even though that isnt true. Saren is a perfect example of this. Subtle mental manipulation until all individual indentity is stripped.
Reprogramming the Geth feels like freeing them from ignorant bondage rather than forcibly choosing their identity. I dont really believe they made the choice in the first place as no rational being would subscribe to losing their identity and being placed in bondage for eternity.
The geth are also very young as a sentient species. One may even view them as children in need of guidance. They were easily swayed by promises of candy and funny stories and now an older sentient species needs to swing on by and **** slap them back into reality.
Modifié par AesirV, 14 décembre 2010 - 11:23 .
#64
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 11:19
RiouHotaru
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Yeah, arguing that rewriting the Geth is "unethical" is itself a flawed argument. You're applying the human idea of brainwashing to a race with a completely different mindset and manner of thinking. Our terms don't apply to them.
#65
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 11:19
Monochrome Wench
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We're at war so I blew them up. They were massively overpowered, yet the still continued to attack to allience. That is the consequences on their actions.
#66
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:01
FlintlockJazz
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Yojimbo_Ltd wrote...
We shouldn't have made the choice. We should have waited till those damn geth made up their mind. I am not a geth and my experience with them is BIAS. I don't care what they choose as long as THEY choose it.
I feel like a vast minority here...
I second this 100%. While Shepard makes choices over alien races they at least seem to be fundamentally the same (in the ME universe). Geth are not, they are fundamentally different in possibly every imaginable way, and Shepard has no experience to base it on nor the information to act on. Legion should have made the choice, even if it meant Shepard having to pull out a gun and giving him 10 seconds to come to a decision...
#67
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:08
supakillaii
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Rewrite them, take away their free with which they joined the Old Machines, and become no better than the Old Machines who indoctrinate others, or kill them with dignity.
Modifié par supakillaii, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:11 .
#68
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:08
Vaenier
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He did, he voted in favor of rewrite. He did not come to concensus, but the next best thing is a magority vote. Yay democracy.FlintlockJazz wrote...
Yojimbo_Ltd wrote...
We shouldn't have made the choice. We should have waited till those damn geth made up their mind. I am not a geth and my experience with them is BIAS. I don't care what they choose as long as THEY choose it.
I feel like a vast minority here...
I second this 100%. While Shepard makes choices over alien races they at least seem to be fundamentally the same (in the ME universe). Geth are not, they are fundamentally different in possibly every imaginable way, and Shepard has no experience to base it on nor the information to act on. Legion should have made the choice, even if it meant Shepard having to pull out a gun and giving him 10 seconds to come to a decision...
#69
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:19
snfonseka
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GvazElite wrote...
the heretics are a small minority of their population
like mormons or something
anyways, rewriting the geth basically will mean that they will band WITH organics at least temporarily to fight the reapers in ME2
Is this mentioned in the game?
#70
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:20
supakillaii
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Yes, they're about 5% of the "total population"
#71
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:36
Mercedes-Benz
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I blew them up, better safe than sorry...
#72
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:52
AlexXIV
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It is not like mind-wiping.
They are computers, and I removed a bug. That's all.
Of course it can happen again but Shep doesn't have a problem killing a bunch of Geth.
If you killed them however, you can't correct that later.
They are computers, and I removed a bug. That's all.
Of course it can happen again but Shep doesn't have a problem killing a bunch of Geth.
If you killed them however, you can't correct that later.
#73
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:53
Vaenier
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I have never seen wiser words spoken on this forum.AlexXIV wrote...
If you killed them however, you can't correct that later.
#74
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:55
supakillaii
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They are sapient, and chose to join the Old Machines by their own choice, that is not a bug. That's like you choosing to drink Coffee with cream is a bug when me drinking it without is clean.
#75
Posté 14 décembre 2010 - 01:59
AlexXIV
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supakillaii wrote...
They are sapient, and chose to join the Old Machines by their own choice, that is not a bug. That's like you choosing to drink Coffee with cream is a bug when me drinking it without is clean.
Legion explains that it is different though. They are not like other species, humans etc.
And it is not about ethics I think. Even Legion is about 50/50 on the issue.
The only question that remained for me was destroy that thing even I could use it later or keep it even though I may have to destroy it later. So I chose to keep it even if I have to destroy it later on. I see no use in pointless destruction which has nothing to do with ethics, but more with economics.
