146 réponses à ce sujet

[supakillaii]

The "math error" happened afterwards, since they chose to leave, and the others chose to stay. They joined the Old Machines by their own free will.

[AlexXIV]

Well if I think about it there are other reasons too. For once you don't wipe out their memory, just the way they process information. Sort of a therapy. Also if you let them live they share their experiences with Legion's Geth which helps them understand the heretics. Alot of points imo that could turn out positive. Not to mention potential gain of trust from Legion and his Geth. You never know where there comes a point where you need to say to him 'Trust me.'

[AlexXIV]

supakillaii wrote...

The "math error" happened afterwards, since they chose to leave, and the others chose to stay. They joined the Old Machines by their own free will.

They made a mistake (from your view). You can correct it. Choice is whether you do it or not. Give them another chance or not, up to you. In my book they are not even life forms, so I don't see it as murder or something if you blow them up. So it doesn't matter if it was their choice or whatever. As I said I don't see this as an issue of ethiics, so also not an issue of guilt. Just use them or don't.

[Vaenier]

Is rewriting the Geth any different than sending someone to prison? You are forcefully changing their behavior through outside stimuli. They are unable to function in society, and thus must be corrected. If you could zap out rapist from humans, you know most people would be for that.

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaenier wrote...
He did, he voted in favor of rewrite. He did not come to concensus, but the next best thing is a magority vote. Yay democracy.

But he still leaves the decision down to you, and makes you choose, though yes I do choose to rewrite them solely on the two vote majority since I cannot make Legion choose like I would want to, I just don't see why Shepard should be made to make the choice and take responsibility when it's Legion's people.  Legion should make the decision and accept responsibility for its outcome, not Shepard.  It would force them to define themselves and choose what kind of people they want to be, and not hide behind what others class them as.

[AlexXIV]

Vaenier wrote...

Is rewriting the Geth any different than sending someone to prison? You are forcefully changing their behavior through outside stimuli. They are unable to function in society, and thus must be corrected. If you could zap out rapist from humans, you know most people would be for that.

I don't know technical details, but Legion says you can't compare Geth to living beings. I honestly didn't understand everything he said and I have no clue if there is any logic behind it or just made up stuff. But since Geth are connected in a hive mind, I'd say killing one is more like severing a limb of the hive. And it can grow back. The memeory is saved somewhere so it is no loss. And if killing one isn't the same as killing a human being, then rewriting one cannot be as bad as wiping the mind of a human being. If you cut a branch from a tree, the tree doesn't die, it will grow a new one. That's how I understand it anyway.

[AlexXIV]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
He did, he voted in favor of rewrite. He did not come to concensus, but the next best thing is a magority vote. Yay democracy.

But he still leaves the decision down to you, and makes you choose, though yes I do choose to rewrite them solely on the two vote majority since I cannot make Legion choose like I would want to, I just don't see why Shepard should be made to make the choice and take responsibility when it's Legion's people.  Legion should make the decision and accept responsibility for its outcome, not Shepard.  It would force them to define themselves and choose what kind of people they want to be, and not hide behind what others class them as.

Don't know, maybe he wants to test you. Like the decision with the station at the end. He seems to be sent to study Shepard.

[Vaenier]

AlexXIV wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Is rewriting the Geth any different than sending someone to prison? You are forcefully changing their behavior through outside stimuli. They are unable to function in society, and thus must be corrected. If you could zap out rapist from humans, you know most people would be for that.

I don't know technical details, but Legion says you can't compare Geth to living beings. I honestly didn't understand everything he said and I have no clue if there is any logic behind it or just made up stuff. But since Geth are connected in a hive mind, I'd say killing one is more like severing a limb of the hive. And it can grow back. The memeory is saved somewhere so it is no loss. And if killing one isn't the same as killing a human being, then rewriting one cannot be as bad as wiping the mind of a human being. If you cut a branch from a tree, the tree doesn't die, it will grow a new one. That's how I understand it anyway.

They are not a single mind, they are individual programs. killing the programs just means copies are made... clones. But clones are not the same, they are new individuals, their similarity to the deceased is for the benifit of society, not the individual. The dead do not come back to life, the dead can never come back to life, only a convincing replica can be created.

[AlexXIV]

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Is rewriting the Geth any different than sending someone to prison? You are forcefully changing their behavior through outside stimuli. They are unable to function in society, and thus must be corrected. If you could zap out rapist from humans, you know most people would be for that.

I don't know technical details, but Legion says you can't compare Geth to living beings. I honestly didn't understand everything he said and I have no clue if there is any logic behind it or just made up stuff. But since Geth are connected in a hive mind, I'd say killing one is more like severing a limb of the hive. And it can grow back. The memeory is saved somewhere so it is no loss. And if killing one isn't the same as killing a human being, then rewriting one cannot be as bad as wiping the mind of a human being. If you cut a branch from a tree, the tree doesn't die, it will grow a new one. That's how I understand it anyway.

They are not a single mind, they are individual programs. killing the programs just means copies are made... clones. But clones are not the same, they are new individuals, their similarity to the deceased is for the benifit of society, not the individual. The dead do not come back to life, the dead can never come back to life, only a convincing replica can be created.

Well Legion says there are no individuals. If you talk to one Geth you talk to all of them. At least that's from the dialogue with Legion.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 14 décembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Vaenier]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well Legion says there are no individuals. If you talk to one Geth you talk to all of them. At least that's from the dialogue with Legion.

Yet he [the platform, i say pronouns are on a per body basis ] says "we" when talking about himself, saying there are multiple geth in one body. This means he acknowledges that fact they are seperate, they are different. The fact he was unable to reach concensus means they are different. The Geth as a species is not a single entity, it is a group of individuals.

[Vaenier]

Geth remind me of Lekgolo. Separate, they are pretty dumb, working on the most basic of instinct. But they are able to come together to form Mgalekgolo "Hunter." As a hunter, they are capable of using weapons, understanding speech, and complex problem solving. They are able to freely leave and return to the individual state, and recombine into other forms such as the Scarab. They are like the organic duplicate to Geth.

Yes, I was talking about the walking tanks from Halo.

[TexasToast712]

DaeJi wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...


As Legion would likely say, that is a false anthropomorphism to apply to software programs.  They do not have free will, they are suffering from a systemic operating difference only.

Call it what you will, those Geth came to their conclusion on their own. If the Geth want to be seen as a real species, and Legion gives me the impression that they do, then they have to accept that different opinions will form.

They are machines, not people, quit getting Holier than thou about the Geth. Rewrite them.

[AlexXIV]

Vaenier wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well Legion says there are no individuals. If you talk to one Geth you talk to all of them. At least that's from the dialogue with Legion.

Yet he [the platform, i say pronouns are on a per body basis ] says "we" when talking about himself, saying there are multiple geth in one body. This means he acknowledges that fact they are seperate, they are different. The fact he was unable to reach concensus means they are different. The Geth as a species is not a single entity, it is a group of individuals.

Yeah well that's the point where my logic fails as well. That's why I choose the economic approach and keep them until I need them or they turn into a problem. Legion says they are no individuals, yet they seem to have different opinions on a subject. Not sure what to make of it, is Legion wrong? Or is it just the way their mind works? Idk. But seems then if they have a 2 votes majority and you kill 3 you could change the result of that vote.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 14 décembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[supakillaii]

AlexXIV wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

The "math error" happened afterwards, since they chose to leave, and the others chose to stay. They joined the Old Machines by their own free will.

They made a mistake (from your view). You can correct it. Choice is whether you do it or not. Give them another chance or not, up to you. In my book they are not even life forms, so I don't see it as murder or something if you blow them up. So it doesn't matter if it was their choice or whatever. As I said I don't see this as an issue of ethiics, so also not an issue of guilt. Just use them or don't.

I never said that "they made a mistake", I'm saying that they chose to follow Nazara by their own, sapient will. I apologize, they [Heretics] were, at least to our knowledge, never indoctrinated, my recollection was faulty. They chose to join the Old Machines by their free will. Example. You are locked in a house. It has everything you want. You chose to go there yourself. Then, you are brainwashed, and forced to go back to the house you were locked in before.

[FlintlockJazz]

AlexXIV wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Is rewriting the Geth any different than sending someone to prison? You are forcefully changing their behavior through outside stimuli. They are unable to function in society, and thus must be corrected. If you could zap out rapist from humans, you know most people would be for that.

I don't know technical details, but Legion says you can't compare Geth to living beings. I honestly didn't understand everything he said and I have no clue if there is any logic behind it or just made up stuff. But since Geth are connected in a hive mind, I'd say killing one is more like severing a limb of the hive. And it can grow back. The memeory is saved somewhere so it is no loss. And if killing one isn't the same as killing a human being, then rewriting one cannot be as bad as wiping the mind of a human being. If you cut a branch from a tree, the tree doesn't die, it will grow a new one. That's how I understand it anyway.

That's one of the things I was a bit iffy about what they changed from ME1 to ME2.  In ME1 Tali is very specific in stating that the Geth do NOT have a hive mind, describing it as a shared subconcious instead and that they cannot share conciousness or senses, yet ME2 seems to contradict this without anyone being surprised or saying anything to explain the difference.  I have to say that I'll be disappointed if they are indeed going for the cliche machine hive mind, so I'm hoping for the former more (I do think the idea is that they just talk to each other really fast rather than actually link together).

It was also implied in the first one that the geth were more hardware-based than they are now (I'm playing through ME1 again at the mo, doing another complete playthrough) and that their limit in intelligence is more lack of processor power than anything, though that's admittedly not really relevant to the current discussion.

AlexXIV wrote...
Don't know, maybe he wants to test you. Like
the decision with the station at the end. He seems to be sent to study
Shepard.

He does admit that the Geth study the other races, and he does seem to be studying Shepard in particular, however the rewrite/destruction of the heretics would be too important to be used for simple study.  I know people are throwing around 5% as the proportion of Geth Heretics but I'm pretty sure that while the Heretics may be the smaller faction they are still significantly large since one of the concerns raised by your other teammate is that the heretics will 'significantly' swell the geth ranks (I always thought that the main faction should be called the Heretics since they oppose following the Reapers while the 'Heretics' should have been called Believers or something, at least by the opposing faction if not themselves).

[Razorsedge820]

Rewrite because Earth is screwed in ME3 and Shepard is gonna need all the help he/she can get.

[Alienmorph]

Rewrite... for now. But I'll blow up all of them if they wanna trick again with quarians. My Shep's girlfriend needs an homeplanet.

[Schneidend]

The heretics are only about 5% of the geth population. They've slaughtered countless organics without mercy. Destroy them.

[Sashimi_taco]

I rewrote them because i wanted to make the geth stronger for future alliances.

[AlexXIV]

supakillaii wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

The "math error" happened afterwards, since they chose to leave, and the others chose to stay. They joined the Old Machines by their own free will.

They made a mistake (from your view). You can correct it. Choice is whether you do it or not. Give them another chance or not, up to you. In my book they are not even life forms, so I don't see it as murder or something if you blow them up. So it doesn't matter if it was their choice or whatever. As I said I don't see this as an issue of ethiics, so also not an issue of guilt. Just use them or don't.

I never said that "they made a mistake", I'm saying that they chose to follow Nazara by their own, sapient will. I apologize, they [Heretics] were, at least to our knowledge, never indoctrinated, my recollection was faulty. They chose to join the Old Machines by their free will. Example. You are locked in a house. It has everything you want. You chose to go there yourself. Then, you are brainwashed, and forced to go back to the house you were locked in before.

There were actually plenty of reasons for my decision, they just added up. Another one would be, if you for example say you would rather die than be mind wiped, that's ok and I'd respect that. But the heretics don't get offered the choice. So who is to say what they would have preferred? And as I said they can still be killed so rewriting isn't a final decission, just a 'let's see what is gonna happen'. If you destroy them you will for once never find out how it works out and you can't take it back.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 14 décembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Here's a thought: by rewriting the Heretics you are telling Legion that they are just code that can be rewritten as and when needed, and that therefore it would be okay for the Quarians to come back and rewrite them into being their servants again, and in fact may be preferable to fighting, whereas by blowing them up you are showing that they are allowed to have their own thoughts but will suffer the consequences for doing so. The former may lead to them allowing the Quarians and allow them to reprogram them as they see fit, whereas the latter may lead to them demanding to live alongside the Quarians as equals.



Not saying that is what I think may happen, but just presenting an alternative, showing how a decision you made in the belief may strengthen someone (rewriting their enemes) may actually wind up making them worse off. There is that Quarian Admiral (Admiral Morrigan ) that wants to rewrite them all after all...

[Vaenier]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Here's a thought: by rewriting the Heretics you are telling Legion that they are just code that can be rewritten as and when needed, and that therefore it would be okay for the Quarians to come back and rewrite them into being their servants again, and in fact may be preferable to fighting, whereas by blowing them up you are showing that they are allowed to have their own thoughts but will suffer the consequences for doing so. The former may lead to them allowing the Quarians and allow them to reprogram them as they see fit, whereas the latter may lead to them demanding to live alongside the Quarians as equals.

Not saying that is what I think may happen, but just presenting an alternative, showing how a decision you made in the belief may strengthen someone (rewriting their enemes) may actually wind up making them worse off. There is that Quarian Admiral (Admiral Morrigan ) that wants to rewrite them all after all...

We can rewrite people too. Its actually not that hard to reprogram someone to do what you want. People exist as they are because of that ability to adapt. This is the direct route, as if you went into a brain and cut the little connection that told a murderer to kill or a rapist to rape. The alternitive is a long prison sentense in order to reform them, but with a much lower success rate.

The fact you could reprogram both Geth and Quarian means they are equals.

[Googlesaurus]

[quote]FlintlockJazz wrote...

That's one of the things I was a bit iffy about what they changed from ME1 to ME2.  In ME1 Tali is very specific in stating that the Geth do NOT have a hive mind, describing it as a shared subconcious instead and that they cannot share conciousness or senses, yet ME2 seems to contradict this without anyone being surprised or saying anything to explain the difference.  I have to say that I'll be disappointed if they are indeed going for the cliche machine hive mind, so I'm hoping for the former more (I do think the idea is that they just talk to each other really fast rather than actually link together).

It was also implied in the first one that the geth were more hardware-based than they are now (I'm playing through ME1 again at the mo, doing another complete playthrough) and that their limit in intelligence is more lack of processor power than anything, though that's admittedly not really relevant to the current discussion.[/quote]

Geth operate via swarm robotics and emergent consciousness. Where does ME2 contradict this? 

Geth do have a hardware requirement in order to achieve higher and higher levels of intelligence, but they don't need specific types just to exist. 

[quote]FlintlockJazz wrote...

He does admit that the Geth study the other races, and he does seem to be studying Shepard in particular, however the rewrite/destruction of the heretics would be too important to be used for simple study.  I know people are throwing around 5% as the proportion of Geth Heretics but I'm pretty sure that while the Heretics may be the smaller faction they are still significantly large since one of the concerns raised by your other teammate is that the heretics will 'significantly' swell the geth ranks (I always thought that the main faction should be called the Heretics since they oppose following the Reapers while the 'Heretics' should have been called Believers or something, at least by the opposing faction if not themselves).[/quote]
[/quote]

Tali is the personification of non-biased. 

[quote]FlintlockJazz wrote...

Here's a thought: by rewriting the Heretics you are telling Legion that they are just code that can be rewritten as and when needed, and that therefore it would be okay for the Quarians to come back and rewrite them into being their servants again, and in fact may be preferable to fighting, whereas by blowing them up you are showing that they are allowed to have their own thoughts but will suffer the consequences for doing so. The former may lead to them allowing the Quarians and allow them to reprogram them as they see fit, whereas the latter may lead to them demanding to live alongside the Quarians as equals.


Not saying that is what I think may happen, but just presenting an alternative, showing how a decision you made in the belief may strengthen someone (rewriting their enemes) may actually wind up making them worse off. There is that Quarian Admiral (Admiral Morrigan ) that wants to rewrite them all after all...[/quote]

Probably not. Legion specifically states that the geth believe in self-determination for all races, and the only reason they were considering rewriting is because the heretics' plan would take that away. If the geth turned down the promise of transcendence because it violated their values, nothing Shepard does will change their minds. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 14 décembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[FoxShadowblade]

"They will kill you because their gods demand it." - Legion

Rewriting them is mind control, indoctrination. But Legion says it's irrelevant, if you don't rewrite them, they must die. If you do rewrite them, I'll let you know, it will all be okay. The Geth population is much, much, much larger than the Heretics(2 million, or so), and the impact will not be much if the Geth turn out to be lying. However, destroying them does ensure that you won't have to worry. It also gives you renegade points. So, like most decisions, it boils down to if you want paragon or renegade points, sadly.
If you talk to Legion after the Suicide mission(spoilz a bit)..

He states that the Geth, the "good" Geth, are merely cleaning up and maintaining the Quarian homeworld, and that peace would be the preferred option. The problem in this equation is that Quarians are still..kinda pissed. So hey, I favor rewrite as both a tactical and logical decision. Morally..eh, I'd have a problem, but I think even the Heretics want to live, so I would give them a chance.

"For example, Geth say one is less than two, Heretics say two is less than three."
And for those who didn't understand what he was saying, just play it again, take it slow, and read each line carefully. If not, PM me the line and I'll let you know what it means in English.(Bit of a tech-speaking nerd here)

Modifié par FoxShadowblade, 14 décembre 2010 - 08:12 .