146 réponses à ce sujet

[FoxShadowblade]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

 There is that Quarian Admiral (Admiral Morrigan ) that wants to rewrite them all after all...

Haha, Admiral Loghain and Admiral Morrigan. 

[supakillaii]

AlexXIV wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

The "math error" happened afterwards, since they chose to leave, and the others chose to stay. They joined the Old Machines by their own free will.

They made a mistake (from your view). You can correct it. Choice is whether you do it or not. Give them another chance or not, up to you. In my book they are not even life forms, so I don't see it as murder or something if you blow them up. So it doesn't matter if it was their choice or whatever. As I said I don't see this as an issue of ethiics, so also not an issue of guilt. Just use them or don't.

I never said that "they made a mistake", I'm saying that they chose to follow Nazara by their own, sapient will. I apologize, they [Heretics] were, at least to our knowledge, never indoctrinated, my recollection was faulty. They chose to join the Old Machines by their free will. Example. You are locked in a house. It has everything you want. You chose to go there yourself. Then, you are brainwashed, and forced to go back to the house you were locked in before.

There were actually plenty of reasons for my decision, they just added up. Another one would be, if you for example say you would rather die than be mind wiped, that's ok and I'd respect that. But the heretics don't get offered the choice. So who is to say what they would have preferred? And as I said they can still be killed so rewriting isn't a final decission, just a 'let's see what is gonna happen'. If you destroy them you will for once never find out how it works out and you can't take it back.

If you rewrite them, they become Geth and Geth become them, they share their memories with all Geth and all Geth share their memories with them, and cannot be killed without destroying all Geth.

Modifié par supakillaii, 14 décembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Syndromeramo]

The way I see it, destroying all of the heretics is best. If Legion is truthful, then I have removed a major enemy of the Alliance, and have stopped the spread f a threat to the galaxy. If he is lying, then I have still removed the most hostile faction of the Geth. Rewriting could be dangerous if True Geth can't be trusted. Call me paranoid, but I never fully trusted Legion.

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaenier wrote...
We can rewrite people too. Its actually not
that hard to reprogram someone to do what you want. People exist as they
are because of that ability to adapt. This is the direct route, as if
you went into a brain and cut the little connection that told a murderer
to kill or a rapist to rape. The alternitive is a long prison sentense
in order to reform them, but with a much lower success rate.

The fact you could reprogram both Geth and Quarian means they are equals.

People don't like being rewritten though, and it is often considered a violation of that person's rights.  By rewriting the geth you are kinda saying that it's okay to treat them as just programs to 'correct' whenever there is a difference of opinion. That it is fine to treat the geth as nothing more than programs that can be rewritten whenever there is a problem rather than deal with it.  This could then put the geth at a disadvantage when dealing with Quarians or other races, especially in dealing with sorting out a Peace Treaty between them, since the Geth may then think that the Quarians are entitled to reprogram the geth to become their servants.

FoxShadowblade wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

 There is that Quarian Admiral (Admiral Morrigan ) that wants to rewrite them all after all...

Haha, Admiral Loghain and Admiral Morrigan. 

You know it, the Darkspawn are really advanced Reaper Husks too!

[FlintlockJazz]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Geth operate via swarm robotics and emergent consciousness. Where does ME2 contradict this? 

Geth do have a hardware requirement in order to achieve higher and higher levels of intelligence, but they don't need specific types just to exist. 

People seem to now think that the Geth have a hive mind, in ME1 it was stated that the Geth could not share higher functions just the lower ones, in ME2 they now seem to share everything.  It could be that the Geth have evolved, but no one seems to expressed that this is new info or anything like you'd expect they would (the Quarians in particular would probably have said something like "WHAT??!").

Googlesaurus wrote...
Tali is the personification of non-biased. 

Never said Tali, it's whoever accompanies you on the mission.  The point is that the Heretic faction is supposed to be large enough that their addition to the main Geth faction would significantly strengthen to the point that it is one of the considerations to take into account when choosing to rewrite or destroy. 

People are throwing around 5% as the size of the Heretic faction, yet I don't ever recall this figure ever being mentioned in the game, any idea where it came ?  Not saying it's wrong, I'd just like to know it's source before accepting it as fact (I'm guessing it's from the Overlord mission, I'd just like to know who tells you it).

Googlesaurus wrote...

Probably not. Legion specifically states that the geth believe in self-determination for all races, and the only reason they were considering rewriting is because the heretics' plan would take that away. If the geth turned down the promise of transcendence because it violated their values, nothing Shepard does will change their minds. 

Yeah I'm not saying it's even likely that is the case, just thought I'd bring it up in case no one else had as something to consider.

[TK Dude]

Blow them up. The Heretics have chosen their path and I say it's better to kill them than brainwashing them.

[Googlesaurus]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

People seem to now think that the Geth have a hive mind, in ME1 it was stated that the Geth could not share higher functions just the lower ones, in ME2 they now seem to share everything.  It could be that the Geth have evolved, but no one seems to expressed that this is new info or anything like you'd expect they would (the Quarians in particular would probably have said something like "WHAT??!").

I think it might stem from the second conversation you have with Legion on his loyalty mission: if you select the right dialogue options, Shepard will say something along the lines of "So whatever you do to the heretics, you're doing to yourselves" and Legion will agree. 

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Never said Tali, it's whoever accompanies you on the mission.  The point is that the Heretic faction is supposed to be large enough that their addition to the main Geth faction would significantly strengthen to the point that it is one of the considerations to take into account when choosing to rewrite or destroy. 

People are throwing around 5% as the size of the Heretic faction, yet I don't ever recall this figure ever being mentioned in the game, any idea where it came ?  Not saying it's wrong, I'd just like to know it's source before accepting it as fact (I'm guessing it's from the Overlord mission, I'd just like to know who tells you it).

I'm fairly sure that Tali is only one of two people who notes that. Everyone else is more concerned about the brainwashing aspect or just getting the job done. 

[Vaenier]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
We can rewrite people too. Its actually not
that hard to reprogram someone to do what you want. People exist as they
are because of that ability to adapt. This is the direct route, as if
you went into a brain and cut the little connection that told a murderer
to kill or a rapist to rape. The alternitive is a long prison sentense
in order to reform them, but with a much lower success rate.

The fact you could reprogram both Geth and Quarian means they are equals.

People don't like being rewritten though, and it is often considered a violation of that person's rights.  By rewriting the geth you are kinda saying that it's okay to treat them as just programs to 'correct' whenever there is a difference of opinion. That it is fine to treat the geth as nothing more than programs that can be rewritten whenever there is a problem rather than deal with it.  This could then put the geth at a disadvantage when dealing with Quarians or other races, especially in dealing with sorting out a Peace Treaty between them, since the Geth may then think that the Quarians are entitled to reprogram the geth to become their servants.

FoxShadowblade wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

 There is that Quarian Admiral (Admiral Morrigan ) that wants to rewrite them all after all...

Haha, Admiral Loghain and Admiral Morrigan. 

You know it, the Darkspawn are really advanced Reaper Husks too!

How does the fact I give them the same rights make them less than a person? I would reprogram people too.

And yes, Quarians could reprogram them to be slaves, but that is no different than beating and torturing someone to break them to make them your slave. It is a direct route, but being easier does not make it any different than the old way. and removing their inteligance would be killing them. it would be like shooting your brain in a way that would keep your vital functions working. you are dead, but your body is still there.

we do not yet have the ability to make people zombies, but that would be what the quarians are trying to do to the Geth.

Modifié par Vaenier, 15 décembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaenier wrote...
How does the fact I give them the same rights make them less than a person? I would reprogram people too.

And yes, Quarians could reprogram them to be slaves, but that is no different than beating and torturing someone to break them to make them your slave. It is a direct route, but being easier does not make it any different than the old way. and removing their inteligance would be killing them. it would be like shooting your brain in a way that would keep your vital functions working. you are dead, but your body is still there.

we do not yet have the ability to make people zombies, but that would be what the quarians are trying to do to the Geth.

Hold up, I think we may be talking about two very different things here.  I mean that by taking the rewrite option you may be telling the geth that it's 'okay' to rewrite them if it saves lives, therefore it would be 'okay' to submit to reprogramming by the Admiral Morrigan and the Quarians if it ends the conflict between them.  Many people seem to be taking the rewrite option because they think it will strengthen the geth, I just thought I'd point out how it might backfire.

Oh, and in ME there is the technology to make people zombies, indoctrination by the reapers and being turned into husks.

[scorptatious]

I personally chose to rewrite them. Mostly because I had a new perspective on the Geth thanks to Legion and didn't want to see to see them destroyed. Plus they would be valuable allies later.



I can see the downsides however, it is essentially brainwashing, and there is a chance they'll turn back. Plus when they get accepted back in by the rest of the Geth, the Quarians will have an even lower chance of getting their homeworld back through war.



Still, my main Shepard is one who looks for peaceful solutions when possible, and only resorts to violence and destruction when absolutely necessary. So hopefully, I can find a diplomatic solution for the Quarian/Geth feud.

[Iakus]

I rewrite them.



Why? Because by my point of view, I'm deprogramming them, not reprogramming. I believe Sovereign introduced the error into the heretic programming, essentially "indoctrinating" synthetic life.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I rewrote them not just because they ended up as my favorite race after ME2 (Mainly because of Legion) but because they're the only race that see the Reapers as a threat and are preparing for the fight, so I gave them back their missing faction to make them stronger when the Reapers come. Everyone else lives in a fantasy world where Reapers are just storys and by time the Reapers do show up no one except the Geth will be ready.



There is no chance that the Heritics will come back again because now the Geth know what to look for and will be able to stop it from happening again.

[AUS Wookie]

I am not sure which to for this either, I re-wrote them last time but the more i think about it the less I like the idea. Who is to say that the heretics might re-write themselves and then align the rest of the geth with the reapers. I would rather blow them up. Does legion have a problem with this? what happens to him?

[Alexander Kogan]

I rewrote them because the heretic geth was like less than 5-1% of the whole collective and the more help the better. Besides, there's probably over a billion geth and we'll need all the help we can get being how tough the reapers are.

[skyferret]

TK Dude wrote...

Blow them up. The Heretics have chosen their path and I say it's better to kill them than brainwashing them.

Pretty much my reasoning. Only renegade choice taken on my pure-paragon playthrough.

[Rayban]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Bingo.  So destroying all dissenting opinion by blowing them up, as opposed to fixing a self-destructive systemic error (following the Reapers is always going to end badly for the Geth), allows for a greater diversity of opinions how?

Simple, it allows for them to make their own decision and then face the fallout from that decision. Those Geth choose to attack organics and create a virus to attack their own people with. Forcibly changing their views is just as bad. They made a choice, and that choice made them enemies that need to be stopped.

The way I see it is like this. The human equivalent would be killing a mentally ill patient for their poor choices, as opposed to giving them the required drugs which fixes their chemical imbalance in their brain that is causing their whacked out opinions.  Killing the person destroys all chance that they'll ever be productive.  Correcting what's broken still allows them to be productive and still provide their own independent viewpoints.

I cannot see how killing off a sapient entity due to it suffering from a correctable malfunction is possibly more noble than fixing their fault, and allowing them to live and continue to offer their independent opinions.

They're software programs.  They're malfunctioning.  You fix them if you're "good", not kill them.  Same with people (if we're going to apply human values to software).

That comparison with a mentally ill patient is very vague.  There are huge different types of mental disabilites and in relation to "poor choices", I wouldn't describe the heretic geth destroying all organics as just a "poor choice."  Besides most mental disabilities in fact do not cause people to try kill other people and even if someone did have a mental disorder to that degree, as sad as it is to say that person would have to be, for lack of a better description, put down if they couldn't be controlled or confined for the greater safety of the community.
Plus monitoring a mentally ill patient is considerably different to trying to control a geth trying to kill you with weaponry.
And let's be honest, if a mentally ill person killed my family and then people were like "oh no its okay, we have drugs to make him normal again" I'd still not be trusting because they can always stop taking medication and snap right back to kill mode!

Anyway lol omg sorry not flaming you at all just was saying, no harm meant whatsoever.  I'm a paragon player but this option I always choose to destroy because even Legion doesn't know exactly why or how the geth deviated from each other in the first place so most likely the virus is just a temporary hold back to a major disaster.

[didymos1120]

Will you stop necroing Legion loyalty threads?

[Tripedius]

Since keeping legion is a paragon action, the more interesting question is what if you give Legion to Cerberus and thus don't get around to stopping the heretics at all? Rewriting and blowing up could have the same end result.

[Catalyst38]

I kill them because I feel there's to big of a chance that the heretics could infect the rest of the Geth with there ideals.... Maybe this is really what the virus was really for? So the Geth would covert the heretics and then be infected with a reaper indoctrination virus..... From what I have seen from the reapers I wouldn't be surprised by this move at all.

So to protect the geth from slavery and death i kill the heretics just to much risk from what I can see.

[Rekkampum]

rewrite them, and THEN blow them up. WINNING

[Asari Commando]

RickmanUK wrote...

No Immediate Advantage... But long term, If i recall the Conversation Correctly. "There's no Gurrante that they won't do the Same Again Right?" "Affimative"<br />
That is too say even if you rewrite them, there's a chance that it'll happen again anyway. Preventative Treatment is better then curing it after it's happened.

great point,  im pretty sure i remember that convo verbatim. part of me wanted to rewrite the geth but i just couldnt trust the decision in the long run. geth have been like the poster-child enemy for shepard thru-out the series, so para/renegade aside i think choosing to wipe em out is better .

i kind of used the same thought process for balak decision. even though letting him go could remedy the current situation, i didnt want to let him go free and terrorize the next colony. if you see the (udina quote) "BIG picture" then releasing balak would ultimately lead to more terrorist attacks (most likely). same for the geth, i figured eventually they would develope a self-awareness (like they did for the quarians) and start to rebel against organics trying to control them.

ultimately i find it hard to trust machines, and not just because of the reapers. i didnt even trust EDI until she saved my ass a couple times.

[Catalyst38]

I understad what everyone is saying about increasing the army power if the geth. I still feel the risk of the reapers putting a virus in the heretics then having them make a virus and leeking it to the geth. I could see the reapers predicting the geth would us it to bring the heretics back in line. Then apon the heretic reconnecting to the geths main body unleashing the virus and enslaving them all.

The reapers could easily place a undetectable virus in the heretics I mean they had one in the reaper IFF just in case someone used it.

[DragonIroh001]

Catalyst38 wrote...

I understad what everyone is saying about increasing the army power if the geth. I still feel the risk of the reapers putting a virus in the heretics then having them make a virus and leeking it to the geth. I could see the reapers predicting the geth would us it to bring the heretics back in line. Then apon the heretic reconnecting to the geths main body unleashing the virus and enslaving them all.

The reapers could easily place a undetectable virus in the heretics I mean they had one in the reaper IFF just in case someone used it.

That's my rationale as well, So I blew them up, better to be safe than sorry.

That begs the question, could Sovereign have subtly added a virus (albeit not a refined version like in ME2) into the collective, when he originally made contact with the Geth, hoping to sway some or all the Geth to his side?

[Raiil]

Holy necro!

I've always destroyed them, paragon or not. Not for the reasons Shep gives, but because ultimately I find brainwashing to be far too unethical. I wouldn't brainwash the damn Reapers, and I'll do just about anything else to them- nuke, set on fire, push into a black hole, etc. It's just wrong.