Modifié par GTYKDME22, 18 avril 2010 - 10:03 .
Tali and Garrus as squadmates in ME3
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#352
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:04
Collider
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As much as I think Mordin is awesome, I'm in agreement. He's just not really the fighter type.-Skorpious- wrote...
I'm ok with Mordin getting an important cameo. He could finish the genophage cure (if you saved the data of course), continue to build upgrades for Shepard, and design tech for Shepard to use against the reapers.
#353
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:06
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The way I set up my game Tali is going to be a **** to write out, infact the only way they could write out the loyal, exiled and romanced Tali is if they pull something out of their arse at the last second.
#354
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:08
Ray Joel Oh
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Hey, concerning fighting, I distinctly heard him saying "Not Difficult!"
Maybe if he's still around offering intel backup, or hanging out on the Normandy, or something else that lets him continue to be a great source of exposition and humor. But it'd have to be better than the previous cameos.
Maybe if he's still around offering intel backup, or hanging out on the Normandy, or something else that lets him continue to be a great source of exposition and humor. But it'd have to be better than the previous cameos.
#355
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:16
Peppard
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BW could do a lot of different things, and they aren't really actively looking to upset people. They just cannot please everyone, but they still want our money.
Non-casual fans, who rally around specific characters as opposed to the game in general, may be the ones most likely to cough up additional money for DLC. Could be a shrewd move on BW's part to make Garrus and Tali DLC, and letting people "handwaive" the death if they wanted to download them, but didn't have a save where they survived. That way, if you hate the characters, well, you don't have to get them, they are completely optional content, but not a throw-away cameo.
That's my guess on how BW would handle it, after thinking about the strongest arguments pro and con for having ME2 squad in ME3.
Reasons to predict that Garrus & Tali return (as well as any other potentially dead squad person):
1) Christina Norman's (Lead Game Designer) "goals" for ME3 included listening to fans, and keeping the same team (don't have the link offhand, but there's a power point presentation thing she did, just google her name, if you haven't seen this)
2) There is potentially little difference in terms of game design to craft a story and balance combat around characters that may not be activated, recruited or downloaded, versus characters that are "dead" in some imports but not others. The main difference for "dead" characters is that the player made a choice in an earlier game, as opposed to the character being absent for a choice in the current game.
3) BW has sometimes "picked a cannon" despite allowing "Player choices" that would have contradicted the cannon for the sake of reducing variations. (I believe that Garrus and Tali both act like your good old friend, in ME2, regardless of how you really treated them in ME1).
4) On occasion, BW has allowed fans to "handwaive" a death away to be able to continue the story (see dead warden and DO:A).
5) Storywise,the writers have flexibility to imagine whatever they want for the third act, more flexibility than they might have had when writing the 2nd act.
6) BW may use DLC to even out any size issues with disc space so that it might be possible to have a very large set of characters as part of the squad, though not necessarily part of the base game
7) BW will upset the fans of the ME2 characters if these do not return as squad characters, potentially reducing sales and reducing BW's reputation as a game company that responds to its fans
Reasons why Garrus/Tali (and the rest) should not return:
1) Potentially dead characters, especially so many of them, would drain resources away from other areas of the game that could have appeal to a broader set of players, especially new players who have no attachments to particular characters.
2) Bw would have to incorporate potentially dead squadmates in a way that would not penalize new players who do not have import saves, or prevent players with the minimum surviving squad from being able to import and enjoy the next game.* (see below)3) BW has a history of sidelining and minimizing player choices in order to simplify the story (treatment of ME1 characters in ME2, the council decision...... ). Anything they promise to the contrary is just marketing fluff to keep the fans from being upset.
4) BW wants ME3 to work as a "stand alone" title
5) BW's will upset the fans of ME1 if they give big roles to the ME2 characters, potentially reducing sales and reducing BW's reputation as a game company that responds to its fans (because then the reduced role for ME1 LI in ME2 would seem even more meaningless if they could have survived anyway to ME3)
6) The more squad characters BW introduces, the harder it is to balance the combat of the game, as well as create interesting dialog and branching interaction for each one.
(modified post for formatting issues..!)
*(Default game point, from above) --I don't think this is a very strong reason, as the easy solution is just give everyone some or all of the squad as part of the default, non import game. If including the characters in the default lowers incentive to play/replay ME1/ME2, well, I don't see that as a huge loss, since I can't imagine there's much incentive to play ME2 in the first place if you're told all the characters you spend the entire game recruiting may as well be dead in the third act. All the " play" value in that case comes from the game itself far as level design and such, plus story and background, maybe other associated choices, all of which is still there whether or not potentially dead squad are part of a default game or not).
Non-casual fans, who rally around specific characters as opposed to the game in general, may be the ones most likely to cough up additional money for DLC. Could be a shrewd move on BW's part to make Garrus and Tali DLC, and letting people "handwaive" the death if they wanted to download them, but didn't have a save where they survived. That way, if you hate the characters, well, you don't have to get them, they are completely optional content, but not a throw-away cameo.
That's my guess on how BW would handle it, after thinking about the strongest arguments pro and con for having ME2 squad in ME3.
Reasons to predict that Garrus & Tali return (as well as any other potentially dead squad person):
1) Christina Norman's (Lead Game Designer) "goals" for ME3 included listening to fans, and keeping the same team (don't have the link offhand, but there's a power point presentation thing she did, just google her name, if you haven't seen this)
2) There is potentially little difference in terms of game design to craft a story and balance combat around characters that may not be activated, recruited or downloaded, versus characters that are "dead" in some imports but not others. The main difference for "dead" characters is that the player made a choice in an earlier game, as opposed to the character being absent for a choice in the current game.
3) BW has sometimes "picked a cannon" despite allowing "Player choices" that would have contradicted the cannon for the sake of reducing variations. (I believe that Garrus and Tali both act like your good old friend, in ME2, regardless of how you really treated them in ME1).
4) On occasion, BW has allowed fans to "handwaive" a death away to be able to continue the story (see dead warden and DO:A).
5) Storywise,the writers have flexibility to imagine whatever they want for the third act, more flexibility than they might have had when writing the 2nd act.
6) BW may use DLC to even out any size issues with disc space so that it might be possible to have a very large set of characters as part of the squad, though not necessarily part of the base game
7) BW will upset the fans of the ME2 characters if these do not return as squad characters, potentially reducing sales and reducing BW's reputation as a game company that responds to its fans
Reasons why Garrus/Tali (and the rest) should not return:
1) Potentially dead characters, especially so many of them, would drain resources away from other areas of the game that could have appeal to a broader set of players, especially new players who have no attachments to particular characters.
2) Bw would have to incorporate potentially dead squadmates in a way that would not penalize new players who do not have import saves, or prevent players with the minimum surviving squad from being able to import and enjoy the next game.* (see below)3) BW has a history of sidelining and minimizing player choices in order to simplify the story (treatment of ME1 characters in ME2, the council decision...... ). Anything they promise to the contrary is just marketing fluff to keep the fans from being upset.
4) BW wants ME3 to work as a "stand alone" title
5) BW's will upset the fans of ME1 if they give big roles to the ME2 characters, potentially reducing sales and reducing BW's reputation as a game company that responds to its fans (because then the reduced role for ME1 LI in ME2 would seem even more meaningless if they could have survived anyway to ME3)
6) The more squad characters BW introduces, the harder it is to balance the combat of the game, as well as create interesting dialog and branching interaction for each one.
(modified post for formatting issues..!)
*(Default game point, from above) --I don't think this is a very strong reason, as the easy solution is just give everyone some or all of the squad as part of the default, non import game. If including the characters in the default lowers incentive to play/replay ME1/ME2, well, I don't see that as a huge loss, since I can't imagine there's much incentive to play ME2 in the first place if you're told all the characters you spend the entire game recruiting may as well be dead in the third act. All the " play" value in that case comes from the game itself far as level design and such, plus story and background, maybe other associated choices, all of which is still there whether or not potentially dead squad are part of a default game or not).
Modifié par Peppard, 18 avril 2010 - 10:22 .
#356
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:22
Ray Joel Oh
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Excellent post with many good points. Though it's always disappointing to me that your second point number 5 is an issue. Can't we all just get along??
#357
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:25
Barquiel
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Peppard wrote...
1) Christina Norman's (Lead Game Designer) "goals" for ME3 included listening to fans, and keeping the same team (don't have the link offhand, but there's a power point presentation thing she did, just google her name, if you haven't seen this)
I think it's referring to the same development team.
#358
Guest_Shavon_*
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:31
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There's quite a lot of love for Thane on other sites, so I don't think the amount of love should be the sole deciding factor. Ideally, I would love to have all of the surviving squadmates from ME2 return for ME3. Bw already made us separate from Liara and Kaidan for ME2, and it was quite painful I used those two and Garrus EVERYWHERE. Painful.
We have become attached to a new squad. Saying good-bye to them at the end of ME2 for a bunch of new squaddies in ME3 would suck. Let's have the ME2 squad, and Kaidan (or Ash) and Liara back, all for ME3.
We have become attached to a new squad. Saying good-bye to them at the end of ME2 for a bunch of new squaddies in ME3 would suck. Let's have the ME2 squad, and Kaidan (or Ash) and Liara back, all for ME3.
#359
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:34
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They've said that they look to other forums as well for reactions to their games. So it all comes around.
Modifié par Ray Joel Oh, 18 avril 2010 - 10:34 .
#360
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:37
_Mordin Solus
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Why not? Still have several years left. Can still lead the science lab aboard Normandy. Any possible reason for dislike?Collider wrote...
As much as I think Mordin is awesome, I'm in agreement. He's just not really the fighter type.-Skorpious- wrote...
I'm ok with Mordin getting an important cameo. He could finish the genophage cure (if you saved the data of course), continue to build upgrades for Shepard, and design tech for Shepard to use against the reapers.
Disgusted by looks? No, still attractive by Turian standards. Skills not needed? No, Incinerate useful to Shepard's squad. Room for new Salarian character? Unlikely, no other prominent salarians in second game.
Hmm... no good reason deducible. Very problematic.
#361
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:38
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Ray Joel Oh wrote...
. Can't we all just get along??
I know, that makes me feel sad too, to include point 5, but I keep seeing posts that I find hard to explain unless that's what's motivating some people.
#362
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:39
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Mr. Solus, I'd like you to be a squad mate, I am just okay with you being on the Normandy doing what you do best - science .
#363
Posté 18 avril 2010 - 10:42
Ray Joel Oh
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Collider wrote...
Mr. Solus, I'd like you to be a squad mate, I am just okay with you being on the Normandy doing what you do best - science .
That's DOCTOR Solus. He didn't spend a year in medical school for you to call him "Mister."
Modifié par Ray Joel Oh, 18 avril 2010 - 10:43 .
#364
Posté 20 avril 2010 - 06:51
X amd
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Really want them both in the next game. I mean they have went through hell twice with us (Shepard) and they should be there to the end. We have all spent two games building a relationship with them and I would be really sad to see them go right before the final battle. One thing I would like to see in ME3 for maybe Garrus' loyalty mission would be going to Palven and helping his Father or something. I really want to see the turian home world. Also Tail without mask please. Must see.
#365
Posté 20 avril 2010 - 11:59
Jedi Master of Orion
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I'd love for Garrus to be in the next game. He was one of my favorites from ME1. But I hope he spends more time talking to me than doing those freakin calibrations.
#366
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 21 avril 2010 - 12:17
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I completely support this idea. I could write a very long wall of text as to why it is a very good idea, but I will refrain. Suffice to say, if Bioware wants to make a very large percentage of its fanbase very happy, these two squaddies are excellent choices to bring back.
Also remember how Bioware pretty much flat out stated that cheating on your ME1 LI will have consequences? How can there be consequences if neither your ME1 LI or ME2 LI is around? And then there's the ME2 ending which focuses in on your squaddies in a "these people are important" kind of way. And if they wipe out the whole cast and start over it basically makes ME2 a big side-quest. The only way to disperse the original crew was to blow up the Normandy and kill Shepard. That's how good of a leader she was. If Bioware does that again it will get downright Scoobie-Doo in redundancy. And last, Bioware should have learned the difficulty of importing dead guys with Wrex. Either they think they can overcome that hurdle now or they have no excuse. They chose to develop the game this way knowing it would be difficult. If they can't handle it, they shouldn't have done it. Now, is the time to pull out all the stops. I want Garrus and Tali back. I don't care if they died in Joe Dirt's game. They are alive, well, and romantically involved with my Shepard's in my two canon games so it makes no sense for them to vanish.
Also remember how Bioware pretty much flat out stated that cheating on your ME1 LI will have consequences? How can there be consequences if neither your ME1 LI or ME2 LI is around? And then there's the ME2 ending which focuses in on your squaddies in a "these people are important" kind of way. And if they wipe out the whole cast and start over it basically makes ME2 a big side-quest. The only way to disperse the original crew was to blow up the Normandy and kill Shepard. That's how good of a leader she was. If Bioware does that again it will get downright Scoobie-Doo in redundancy. And last, Bioware should have learned the difficulty of importing dead guys with Wrex. Either they think they can overcome that hurdle now or they have no excuse. They chose to develop the game this way knowing it would be difficult. If they can't handle it, they shouldn't have done it. Now, is the time to pull out all the stops. I want Garrus and Tali back. I don't care if they died in Joe Dirt's game. They are alive, well, and romantically involved with my Shepard's in my two canon games so it makes no sense for them to vanish.
#367
Posté 21 avril 2010 - 12:27
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I agree 100% with Ragabul. The entirety of ME2 is invalidated if our squad mates do not return, and a meaningful way. This is the last game of the trilogy, and nearly all of ME2 was literally recruiting squad members, earning their loyalty, and then making sure they survive. The suicide mission part of the game means literally nothing if there is no consequence (positive or negative) for them surviving or perishing. Thankfully Casey has already given an indication that we will at least be seeing how the majority of squad mates' story unfolds and conclude in ME3.
#370
Posté 21 avril 2010 - 12:52
epoch_
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Jackal904 wrote...
Thread necromancy much?
It seems to have passed that and its now its crossed into the realm of the living, again.
#371
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 22 avril 2010 - 12:19
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Jackal904 wrote...
Thread necromancy much?
Huh?
#372
Posté 22 avril 2010 - 03:33
-Skorpious-
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Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Jackal904 wrote...
Thread necromancy much?
Huh?
Essentially, it's bringing a topic that hasn't seen any replies in days back to life by adding another comment, hence the necromancy part.
Oh, this is totally not an attempt to keep this thread on the first page. Totally not.
#373
Posté 22 avril 2010 - 10:11
NeoGuardian86
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considering... Star Wars Old Republic is gonna be the biggest project Bioware and EA have done up to date. with fully voice diolog, and the ability to go the game alone and then go to party mode and back and forth.
I've also seen in the interview with the two heads of Bioware with Adam Sessler at G4, that game design wise the third part is set.
I frankly hope... considering this is the end of the trilogy.
the... Return of the King part of the story if that makes sense.
that game design wise, a few tweaks there, some new art designs and locales to be created. Then they can focus on two things.
Story
Characters
I remember people complaining about the level cap being smaller. i can forsee the level cap of ME3 being extended back up to 60. not to mention the abilities and weapons just being expanded a bit. but the core game designs, the meat and patatoes of games. is there.
Also if i may mention, in Mass Effect 2, your squad mates didn't have nearly as much to chat with you as they did in Mass Effect 1. I can also forsee about the same amount of dialog being used for the squad mates for Mass Effect 3 with a few adjustments (like the chit chat that went on outside of direct conversation) but over all keep it the same.
I mean if you think about it, even the story of Mass Effect 2 was a very methodically crafted story. the freedom of movement came in when and who you wanted to recruit.
personally.. i'm gonna be massively disappointed if all they do is turn the entire cast or even a substantial number of the cast mates from Mass Effect 2 squadmates into just simple NPC's.
especially on the swan song of the trilogy.
I've also seen in the interview with the two heads of Bioware with Adam Sessler at G4, that game design wise the third part is set.
I frankly hope... considering this is the end of the trilogy.
the... Return of the King part of the story if that makes sense.
that game design wise, a few tweaks there, some new art designs and locales to be created. Then they can focus on two things.
Story
Characters
I remember people complaining about the level cap being smaller. i can forsee the level cap of ME3 being extended back up to 60. not to mention the abilities and weapons just being expanded a bit. but the core game designs, the meat and patatoes of games. is there.
Also if i may mention, in Mass Effect 2, your squad mates didn't have nearly as much to chat with you as they did in Mass Effect 1. I can also forsee about the same amount of dialog being used for the squad mates for Mass Effect 3 with a few adjustments (like the chit chat that went on outside of direct conversation) but over all keep it the same.
I mean if you think about it, even the story of Mass Effect 2 was a very methodically crafted story. the freedom of movement came in when and who you wanted to recruit.
personally.. i'm gonna be massively disappointed if all they do is turn the entire cast or even a substantial number of the cast mates from Mass Effect 2 squadmates into just simple NPC's.
especially on the swan song of the trilogy.
#374
Posté 15 juin 2010 - 09:43
MNeidig
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I'm all for Tali and Garrus. There's no reason for them not to come along.
Garrus won't go back to C-Sec.
Tali -could- go back to the Fleet, potentially. But for those who played her Loyalty Mission with a guilty verdict and exile (the one that still grants her loyalty), then where would she go?
Garrus won't go back to C-Sec.
Tali -could- go back to the Fleet, potentially. But for those who played her Loyalty Mission with a guilty verdict and exile (the one that still grants her loyalty), then where would she go?
#375
Posté 15 juin 2010 - 11:01
Alphyn
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Garrus and Tali have been with Shepard up to this point, why would they leave now?
