38 réponses à ce sujet

[flagondotcom]

I let Avernus live on first playthrough, but subsequent ones have always ended up with me killing him even if I'm a Blood Mage. What he did is (to me) worse than Loghain, close to Branka's level.



Plus, there are apparently no real benefits to letting him live, and I need the XP.



@Ameraudur - If BW is going to let us use DLC items but not transfer anyone other than our main character, I'd expect that the only save you can transfer is the epilogue/post-coronation save. It *has* been stated that anything not in your main party inventory won't transfer, but that you can revisit the WK party chest and pull items out before re-saving and transferring.

[Arryngow]

flagondotcom wrote...

 even if I'm a Blood Mage.

Isn't playing a Blood Mage probably the best reason of all to kill him? Getting the robes and all that?

[guy-noir]

the way I see it is, even though it probably isn't going to actually happen, I'm going to meet him again someday and we could work together as almost a kind of research team that together will rock the world of grey wardens granting them insane revelations into the nature of the taint, the dark spawn, and how to fight them. You see my character is a mage that's really half and half as far as morals go. Right now my major priority is mostly killing the archdemon, but I have some plans within plans and am subtley acting on them in whatever way I can when given little opportunities. I like to think that the idea of living two hundred years like Avernus is an attractive idea, that he's right to pursue knowledge given certain restrictions (the grey wardens he experiments on should be volunteers) and that his research could lead to power that puts me on the level of legends like Flemeth and Andraste, and who doesn't want that. Plus there's the fact that the poison you drink there gives you certain plot based abilities and it looks like you're supposed to be able to have four new abilites instead of two. Who knows maybe more will be given if you let him live.

[ladydesire]

Considering that I have seen mention of special abilities from the DLC on the unofficial DA Wiki, I believe he does either contact you somehow, or he makes the stuff available to the stores in the courtyard at the Keep..

[errant_knight]

ladydesire wrote...

Considering that I have seen mention of special abilities from the DLC on the unofficial DA Wiki, I believe he does either contact you somehow, or he makes the stuff available to the stores in the courtyard at the Keep..

The abilities are available through another aspect of the DLC. Avernus is responsible, but it doesn't relate to what they're discussing here.

[mslc123]

Lakmoots wrote...

Joseph Silver wrote...

Avernus is a Grey Warden. He basically experimented on other Grey Wardens like Dr. Josef Mengele to test the limits of the Taint. In real life, the Allies didn't throw away Mengele's nightmare fuel unethical research since it would've been a waste, otherwise his victims would've died for nothing.

This is why I choose to take advantage of Avernus's research because it would benefit future Grey Wardens.

Ummmm....

Historically, this is regarded as one of the worst moral failures of the Allies after WW2...

I don't think this really counts as a justification nowadays... or ever.

A moral failuure that led to scientific break throughs. As for the Grey Wardens, remember they'll do anything nessicary to defeat the darkspawn.

Also for Avernus's great crimes against his fellow wardens, I made him listen to Alistair talk for a few hours, Avernus ended his own life shortly afterward.

Modifié par mslc123, 03 février 2010 - 02:33 .

[Lakmoots]

mslc123 wrote...

Lakmoots wrote...

Joseph Silver wrote...

Avernus is a Grey Warden. He basically experimented on other Grey Wardens like Dr. Josef Mengele to test the limits of the Taint. In real life, the Allies didn't throw away Mengele's nightmare fuel unethical research since it would've been a waste, otherwise his victims would've died for nothing.

This is why I choose to take advantage of Avernus's research because it would benefit future Grey Wardens.

Ummmm....

Historically, this is regarded as one of the worst moral failures of the Allies after WW2...

I don't think this really counts as a justification nowadays... or ever.

A moral failuure that led to scientific break throughs. As for the Grey Wardens, remember they'll do anything nessicary to defeat the darkspawn.

Also for Avernus's great crimes against his fellow wardens, I made him listen to Alistair talk for a few hours, Avernus ended his own life shortly afterward.

If you don't mind science having the blood of dead Jews all over it, sure... this is a very American decision.

I don't think other Warden's *including Alistair* would think it was "cool" either.

Perhaps the same way that Europe, Israel, and Antarctica do not think or record in their history books that using the **** research was anything except a complete moral failure by the Americans.

If they wanted to show that they were fighting simply to win, and that they had no problems with this stuff... they did.
I think this is a decision about whether you would agree or disagree with becoming to similar to the monsters that you fight... a very easy decision for some.

DA:O has alot of "we do anything to win" options - many of these are a trick. It makes your character ending up either fighting for a good outcome, or just fighting to win.

It is like whether you are Loghain or not... what would you do to justify your success? Use blood soaked data taken from a terrible source?

Heck, why not let Hespith breed you an army like Branka suggests?

Personally I grin slightly when they give "Yo Joe!" options where I do not have to reflect morally on the results of anything...

The "at any price" camp can be taken too far. It is the single greatest justification for atrocities and war crimes in the modern world.

This is why they give you that choice so often... it is odd reading how many people had no problem with it

EDIT: wow... this message board blanked out the name of the German govt during WW2...

Modifié par Lakmoots, 03 février 2010 - 04:12 .

[mslc123]

Lakmoots wrote...

If you don't mind science having the blood of dead Jews all over it, sure... this is a very American decision.

I don't think other Warden's *including Alistair* would think it was "cool" either.

Perhaps the same way that Europe, Israel, and Antarctica do not think or record in their history books that using the **** research was anything except a complete moral failure by the Americans.

If they wanted to show that they were fighting simply to win, and that they had no problems with this stuff... they did.
I think this is a decision about whether you would agree or disagree with becoming to similar to the monsters that you fight... a very easy decision for some.

DA:O has alot of "we do anything to win" options - many of these are a trick. It makes your character ending up either fighting for a good outcome, or just fighting to win.

It is like whether you are Loghain or not... what would you do to justify your success? Use blood soaked data taken from a terrible source?

Heck, why not let Hespith breed you an army like Branka suggests?

Personally I grin slightly when they give "Yo Joe!" options where I do not have to reflect morally on the results of anything...

The "at any price" camp can be taken too far. It is the single greatest justification for atrocities and war crimes in the modern world.

This is why they give you that choice so often... it is odd reading how many people had no problem with it

EDIT: wow... this message board blanked out the name of the German govt during WW2...

Americans didn't perform those expriements upon those people, when we liberated those people from concentration camps we found the results of the expriements which was useful information on the limitations of the human body. Things we wouldn't know of because such research is restricted in most countries, should we have just let it go to waste? Sure we offered asylum to some of their scientist, but why waste that knowledge when you can do something good with it.

[Thor Rand Al]

I look at it this way yes what Avernus did was wrong, sacrificing other human beings to experiment with but at the same time he's trying to understand more about the taint... yes it's wrong the way he did it but at the same time he's tryin to help the wardens n of course himself... N doesn't Duncan, Alistair, even Riordan say that Wardens will do whatever they have to, use whatever they have to... I've always let him live but tell him he's got to do the research in a more humane way... Who know's maybe someday he'll actually find a cure for things that other's have mentioned in this post...

[Carodej]

flagondotcom wrote...

I let Avernus live on first playthrough, but subsequent ones have always ended up with me killing him even if I'm a Blood Mage. What he did is (to me) worse than Loghain, close to Branka's level.

Plus, there are apparently no real benefits to letting him live, and I need the XP.

@Ameraudur - If BW is going to let us use DLC items but not transfer anyone other than our main character, I'd expect that the only save you can transfer is the epilogue/post-coronation save. It *has* been stated that anything not in your main party inventory won't transfer, but that you can revisit the WK party chest and pull items out before re-saving and transferring.

You can get unlimited XP from the Dalish, so you don't need to kill anything you don't want to.  Though I can understand your BM wanting to kill him, as long as you don't mind using metagame knowledge about his useful robe.

While Avernus did indeed commit some terrible crimes, he also effectively imprisoned himself for 200 years.  He kept the demons more or less locked up in WK all that time.  He did research too, but since he ran out of grey warden subjects after only a few months, most of the research done seems unlikely to have been via some immoral method.

To me, his 200 years of imprisonment and public service (keeping the demons at bay), seemed like a reasonable sentence for his crimes.

[lqutois]

Sabriana wrote...

Even though the PC never finds out in DA:O if Avernus finds anything, I still let him live, telling him to do it the humane way. Who knows what Avernus might find out/discover. He already found out far more in 200+ years, than the GWs knew about the taint in all their history.
Maybe he can find a way to avoid the taint's eventual take-over over the Wardens. Perhaps solve the infertility problem, or find a way that the Wardens can sense the darkspawn but not vice versa.
So, all in all, my PCs let him live, provided he sticks to the ethical pathway of experimentation and reseach.

That depends on who you ask.  The research itself I consider to be morally neutral.  How it was obtained was obviously evil and he should have been killed for it and I believe he was.  However to ignore it when it can actually save lives I think is a mistake.  Now the fact that it is still argued about is why a choice like it was in the game.  Interesting moral decisions and all.

[Judah11]

lqutois wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Even though the PC never finds out in DA:O if Avernus finds anything, I still let him live, telling him to do it the humane way. Who knows what Avernus might find out/discover. He already found out far more in 200+ years, than the GWs knew about the taint in all their history.
Maybe he can find a way to avoid the taint's eventual take-over over the Wardens. Perhaps solve the infertility problem, or find a way that the Wardens can sense the darkspawn but not vice versa.
So, all in all, my PCs let him live, provided he sticks to the ethical pathway of experimentation and reseach.

That depends on who you ask.  The research itself I consider to be morally neutral.  How it was obtained was obviously evil and he should have been killed for it and I believe he was.  However to ignore it when it can actually save lives I think is a mistake.  Now the fact that it is still argued about is why a choice like it was in the game.  Interesting moral decisions and all.

All we did was make space suits and diving suits. Big freaking whoop.

[Arryngow]

Lakmoots wrote...

Perhaps the same way that Europe, Israel, and Antarctica do not think or record in their history books that using the **** research was anything except a complete moral failure by the Americans.

Wait, who's printing history books in Antarctica?

And as much as I enjoyed watching you go off on your anti-American agenda rant, you might want to research such people as Ian Fleming (you know, the creator of James Bond) and the organization he was part of, Target Force, during WW II. Americans weren't the only "Allies" gathering up said research and putting it to use.

Modifié par Arryngow, 04 février 2010 - 09:42 .

[eschilde]

@Lakmoots

On the Hespith breeding army.. I get this small feeling that a darkspawn army would not be very agreeable to your demands. For Branka's purposes it was probably okay, she wanted them to go deeper into the Roads, and she'd have no reason to care what they did otherwise, cause after she got the Anvil she'd kill 'em. On the other hand, for ending the Blight and all, uh, extra darkspawn is probably bad. You know. More tunnelers, and crap. Just sayin'.