35 réponses à ce sujet

[Question2]

KOTOR/Mass effect/Dragon age, even neverwinter nights.

The protaginist is someone from an elite group of operatives(Jedi/Spectres/Wardens/Adventurers) whom has to save the (Galaxy/Galaxy again/Ferelden/Neverwinter and Faerun) from an ancient evil(Sith + Starforge/Reapers/Darkspawn/Old Ones). For some reason, the protaginist is the only one who can do this because (Dunno where the other jedi are/Dunno where the other spectres are/Wardens are in the wrong country/Dunno where the Neverwinter Nine were) and the powers of the galaxy/world with their fleets/armies are (plot device : Getting owned by ancient evil/Sitting at the Citadel/Doing stupid **** under Teryn Loghain/Owned by plague).

The protaginist has to travel to a series of locations to unravel the clues that will lead him to the ancient evil (Finding Starmaps/Chasing Saren/Gathering armies/Chasing Cultists), upon which the protaginist enters the final battle against the ancient evil and emerges victorious, whereupon a new glorious age begins thanks to the efforts of the protaginist (Republic is saved/Humans gain more prominence in galatic affairs/Wardens are rewarded for saving Ferelden/Neverwinter is saved and can be rebuilt), until the next sequel in which another ancient evil appears (Mass Effect 2 with the Collectors) whereupon once again due to (insert plot device here] you are the only one who can save everyone because [even more jedi are dead than the last time/dunno where the other spectres are/no sequel yet/Dunno where all the high level Faerun NPCs are).

Bioware also seems incapable of making evil endings be truly evil (Darkside protaginist doesnt conquer republic/Not really applicable/Wardens cant be evil/Only one ending which consists of saving everyone).

Modifié par Question2, 01 février 2010 - 01:01 .

[QuiTamGogh]

Oh noes, Bioware makes epic hero fantasies .... I guess I'll go back to Mario where I just have to go from level to level collecting things so that I can unlock the final dungeon to confront the ancient evil dragon and save the prin...cess..... NOOOOOO. My whole hobby is ruined.

[Godak]

I'm hoping DA: Awakening and DA:2 focus more on politics. The Architect is *SPOILERS!* pushing for darkspawn co-existence, and I hope that the Orlesian Empire adds another layer of awesome.



I must agree that the overall story of DA:O felt very similar to games of BioWare's past.

[Question2]

QuiTamGogh wrote...

Oh noes, Bioware makes epic hero
fantasies .... I guess I'll go back to Mario where I just have to go
from level to level collecting things so that I can unlock the final
dungeon to confront the ancient evil dragon and save the
prin...cess..... NOOOOOO. My whole hobby is ruined.

Or you could think of something original that isnt in the same format i posted above.

Other companies can do this btw.

In your example imagine after playing Mario you played another game where you played a auto mechanic whom had to travel through multiple warehouses to confront the evil gang boss and save the [insert female of importance here]

Modifié par Question2, 01 février 2010 - 12:58 .

[QuiTamGogh]

Question2 wrote...

QuiTamGogh wrote...

Oh noes, Bioware makes epic hero
fantasies .... I guess I'll go back to Mario where I just have to go
from level to level collecting things so that I can unlock the final
dungeon to confront the ancient evil dragon and save the
prin...cess..... NOOOOOO. My whole hobby is ruined.

Or you could think of something original that isnt in the same format i posted above.

Other companies can do this btw.

In your example imagine after playing Mario you played another game where you played a auto mechanic whom had to travel through multiple warehouses to confront the evil gang boss and save the [insert female of importance here]

The point is that if you abstract a story to a certain point, it is the same as every other story.   Check it:

You play a hero.  The hero must accomplish certain tasks in different places.  Once accomplishing those tasks, the hero can finally confront the big bad, which big bad must be defeated in order to save good thing.

When you start looking at the specifcs of each narrative, they're each very different.  I never crowned a king in Mass Effect or Knights of the Old Republic, for example.

There's nothing wrong with your comparison, it's just not that insightful.  I'm sorry.

[Question2]

Your example is different.

For example, the hero can accomplish different kind of tasks, and for a different reason.

There is pretty much no difference between finding starmaps and finding cultist diaries. Nor is there much difference between finding starmaps to find the location of the starforge and finding clues to where the conduit is.

I even gave specific examples listed in the original post.

You dont need to do the exact same thing to be similar. Most of dragon age is basically travelling to 4 different locations to complete a portion of the main quest in order to be allowed to head to the endgame. Mass effect even has the same number of 4 locations before you can head to the endgame. The plot and the way you interact with it is extremely similar.

Would it be different if, instead of crowning a king in mass effect, you had instead helped someone ascend to a position of power political wise(Oh wait both endings allow you to do this, in varying degrees). Or maybe, instead of a king, it would have been a queen. Or a chamberlain. Or a president.

Battle of Ostagar(prologue) -> 4 locations for main quest -> Landsmeet -> Final battle with darkspawn generals -> Archdemon

Eden Prime(prologue) -> 4 locations for main quest -> Ilos -> Final battle on Citadel -> Saren/Sovereign

Please dont make me list examples of games that had a hero saving the world but ISNT in the same format as i listed in the original post. You should be able to find it yourself, dont make me spoonfeed you.

Modifié par Question2, 01 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[Seagloom]

I just have one point of contention: adventurers are not considered an elite group or organization in the vein of Spectres, Jedi, or Grey Wardens. They are regular people that for one reason or another decide to explore the world to find treasure, thrills, or further an agenda, be it personal or otherwise, at great risk to their lives. In Faerun adventurers are often thought as a bit crazy since most people wouldn't want to put themselves in situations they could easily die in.

They exist all over the world and vary widely in morals as well. An actual Faerunian organization that would make sense for your example are the Harpers; which your nameless NWN protagonist is not a member of. Other than that, I do not disagree with opening post. I enjoy BioWare games a great deal, but it's their party members, NPCs, and side quests that draw me in. Main plots were never the strong points of these games in my opinion.

Edit: Also, the whole plot of Neverwinter Nights was overblown to be a much bigger deal than it actually was. I want to avoid going into Forgotten Realms lore geek mode here, but the realistic chances of the Sarrukh (Old Ones) conquering all of Faerun were fairly slim even if they managed to topple Neverwinter. Not that I can blame you for believing otherwise. Neverwinter Nights took a ridiculous amount of liberties with the license.

Modifié par Seagloom, 01 février 2010 - 01:40 .

[Question2]

Except in D&D adventurers are elites, especially if they are the PCs. They fulfill the same role in storylines, such as defeating entire armies through unconventional means, defeating ancient evils, saving the whole world, etc.



Its not a matter of being in an elite ORGANIZATION, but an elite of the setting. To even have a single class level in D&D supposedly sets you out from the rest, particularly in Eberron.

[Seagloom]

Yes, well, the Forgotten Realms is not Eberron. Your PC can grow to be fairly powerful by rules standards, but the threat they face in Neverwinter Nights is never anything more than regional, and in Faerun power is as much your connections and influence as class levels because the truly elite are all high level epic NPCs. Eberron is a fairly low power setting where it is much easier for a random adventurer to upset the balance of power. Adventurers are a dime a dozen in the Western Heartlands and the Savage North where the Neverwinter Nights series takes place. You pretty much need to be at the level of Fzoul Chembyrl or Khelben Blackstaff to be considered a real mover and shaker, and your PC in those games doesn't even come close.

Besides, I inferred you meant organization based on the following quoted sentence: "The protaginist is someone from an elite group of operatives(Jedi/Spectres/Wardens/Adventurers) whom has to save the (Galaxy/Galaxy again/Ferelden/Neverwinter and Faerun) from an ancient evil(Sith + Starforge/Reapers/Darkspawn/Old Ones)."

You lumped in adventurers with organizations from other settings that in your words, are an elite group of operatives. When in reality most adventurers are independent operators that rarely form into long lasting companies.

Modifié par Seagloom, 01 février 2010 - 01:59 .

[QuiTamGogh]

QuiTamGogh wrote...

There's nothing wrong with your comparison, it's just not that insightful.  I'm sorry.

This literally still applies to everything you've said.   You are choosing to view all of the narratives from a fixed level of abstraction, and you refuse look more closely or pan out.  I'll grant (and have already granted) you that from your altitude, all of them look the same.

[Marlina]

*POSSIBLE SPOILERS*

Only thing that annoys me is this ANCIENT EVIL coming back to haunt us in every single game.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Good day to you, Sir Troll.

Okay, I bite, let's troll a bit.

How can you compare the need to gather armies to finding out where the enemy is? If you are bothered by the fact that you have to play through a game before facing the BigBad, then maybe you should stop playing.

Why would you complain about your PC being a powerful character?

Yes, if your character was a powerless fool unable to stand up to even a single opponent this would be a rather novel idea (unless you count D&D games where you start on level 1, like Baldur's Gate), but it would also get old really quick. And that a capable warrior would be promoted to a higher rank is kind of obvious in my opinion. And the only character who can really stand up to a jedi is another jedi. If you've played KotOR, you should know that (and by the way, BioWare is not responsible for KotOR2).

And your dissatisfaction with a happy end is kind of interesting too. Would you prefer it if during the final battle the controls were suddenly disabled, releasing you from the responsibility to win the game? And if not, would you like games where you had a 100% playthrough, killed every bad guy, protected all the innocent little girls there were and even finished all the stupid fetch quests and still wouldn't be rewarded with a happy end? Seriously?

About the point that you're the only one... Well, as others have said, you are not necessarily. But out of mercy the devs neglected to write a timer that would introduce higher level characters after you've lingered around for too long that would finish the BigBad off-screen and take all the credit as well. (that'd be a great way for a game to end...)



About the ancient evil: Yes, that is a popular story device, but at least it's an easy way to explain the sudden emerge of a major threat.

[Xzaws]

Question2, thank you for ranting for me. I have the same thoughts about this.
BTW, Are there any games with plot like in Planescape: Torment?
Just a good story without ancient evil, annoying heroic protagonist and saving the galaxy...

Modifié par Xzaws, 02 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[Godak]

QuiTamGogh wrote...

QuiTamGogh wrote...

There's nothing wrong with your comparison, it's just not that insightful.  I'm sorry.

This literally still applies to everything you've said.   You are choosing to view all of the narratives from a fixed level of abstraction, and you refuse look more closely or pan out.  I'll grant (and have already granted) you that from your altitude, all of them look the same.

I understand where you're coming from, but most BioWare narratives do follow a very general formula. Of course, the important part is the world and the characters that BioWare creates.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Godak wrote...
I understand where you're coming from, but most BioWare narratives do follow a very general formula.

That may very well be, but this formula has yet to be spelled out (and I personally haven't yet discovered any such formula).

As I (and others) have already pointed out, the one that the OP described is simply ridiculous.

[Godak]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Godak wrote...
I understand where you're coming from, but most BioWare narratives do follow a very general formula.

That may very well be, but this formula has yet to be spelled out (and I personally haven't yet discovered any such formula).

As I (and others) have already pointed out, the one that the OP described is simply ridiculous.

Him making massive generalizations doesn't help...

[bzombo]

this is somewhat true, but it can be applied to the entire fantasy genre. you, your party, or some other entity, must vanquish the evil by doing stuff that makes your level go up so you're strong enough to kill the boss. it's a repetitive patten, but all fantasy games do it. each developer seems to have their style. it's like in music. heavy metal bands have a certain formula, but each band has their own style of playing. do you tell a band they're unoriginal for having guitars and drums like every other group? is originality achieved only by forming a metal band with a xylophone, cymbals, triangle, and a flute? no. it would be stupid and not fit. who wants to hear the flute solo?????? just like every other genre has their generalizations, fantasy does too.

[Ponce de Leon]

Hmm... Well, basically, it IS true that the goal is pretty simple. But heck, it's a HEROIC game, not a VILLAIN game. Don't you save the universe in another, oh I don't know how many, MANY games? Every heroic game in fact? And how are you supposed to do if you don't become stronger, by joining a strong group. You may notice that life isn't like Steven Seagal's perfect life with his family (and he's a cook!) and some criminals for no reason take his sons as hostages, so he takes a gun, kills 20000 evil guys, DOESN'T have nightmares about it and frees his children with no help at all. You NEED to be part of a group, and get stronger. And besides, from the games you listed :

SPOILERS!!!!









Grey Warden : it's needed to kill the archdemon

Specter : I may be wrong, but don't have any god given right in the universe?

Jedi : it's hard to see something stronger than a light sabre wielding acrobat that never laughs

Adventurer : erm... not really an elite group, is it?



Talk about other BioWare games, like MDK2, where you have 3(!) super heroes to pwn every enemy in the universe, they have their super space station, super powers, and God knows whatever else they got.

Another one, the Baldur's Gate series, w00t, your the child of a GOD and you kill your brothers. Nice, huh?

And if you want a game where your part isn't important, then heck, get the Sims and start a career as a cook. That will ensure you won't save the world. Gosh...

[Draelorn]

I do wish Bioware was more creative in their story-lines. Even the "Dark Fantasy" promised doesn't feel especially grim at all. You never quite feel the devastation on an emotional level, and it never hits home. Having said that, Bioware is great with characters and dialogue, which can give a generic story a lot of personality, so that in the end I feel satisfied. I do hope they come up with some more grim choices and consequences for DA2.



Game-wise this is not a good comparison, but when I think of dark, mature stories in gaming, I'm reminded of Silent Hill 1 and 2. Those had some seriously heavy consequences that hit you in the gut.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Good day to you, Sir Troll.

Question2 doesn't qualify as a troll. 

He made a very negative statement about something with no real arguments to back up his claim in a place where fans of this thing were meeting and when arguments to the contrary were brought up there was no proper response (besides a strawman argument).
Question2 is not offending anyone (besides the Bioware employees), but his behavior is trollish.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The similarities are obvious. And while I would love to see something original, it's also how the story is told that makes it worthwhile and not really its content. Despite thsoe similarities, I have enjoyed all Bioware games I have played, because the way the story is presented and the characters we interact with, in addition to the universe itself, is extremily well presented.

Of course it wouldn't hurt if Bioware comes up with something very original.