265 réponses à ce sujet

[ModernDayMoriarty]

Okay, so here's what I think.

Before you start reading this, I want to make a few things clear. I am not the greatest fan of this game, but I did like the first one and I like Bioware in general. I paid my money for the game and I'm entitled to my say. If you are someone who refuses to accept any opinon other than 'It's the greatest thing ever', then that's great, but don't bother reading this.

Secondly, I don't expect 99% of people to actually read all this. I want to have my say - it doesn't mean you have to read it. I know there's a lot of text here, but the way the game tries to subvert you to accepting its story requires detailed exposure.

Lastly, if you do like to play as a Renegade, then knock yourselves out, because the story more or less works in that case (its still boring, but at least it tracks if you're a 'Gade). It's only if you want to play as a Paragon and someone of moral principle, that the game confines and constricts all the joy out of playing.

Anyway...
So I guess the main issue I have with this game is Cerberus. Namely that I hate having to work for them, and it has pretty much ruined the game completely for me. I found it outrageous that a Paragon Shepard isn't allowed to take them to task for all their vicious experiments etc, and the idea that you would work for them under any circumtances.

This game only works if you are even modestly receptive to Cerberus, but my character simply never would be. They are simply too villainous and the game just doesn't play fair in allowing you to tell things like they are. It constantly pulls the '24' card of saying 'There are no other options - this is the only way we can do this etc etc'.

But it just isn't true. Shepard is someone who can convince everyone from street thugs to high ranking diplomats to follow his/her train of thought - except when it's the Council and the Illusive Man. With the Council, she just says 'Oh, if you're going to be like that!' and blows them off; with the Illusive Man, it's just 'Aye aye Sir; where next?'

Shepard has plenty of options, if you were just allowed to pursue them. For a start, you could make a proper appeal to the Council. Request private audiences with at least the Asari, Human and Salarian councillors. Sit down with them and say 'Look, colonies really are being attacked. I want to help, but I don't want to join Cerberus'.

In more extreme methods, you could ask Anderson to have a C-Sec team ready at the embassy. Arrest Miranda and Jacob as you walk in, impound the Normandy and confiscate the ship's logs, crew etc for questioning. Jacob wouldn't take much convincing, if you simply sat him down and told him about Cerberus' heinous actions in ME1.

And what are Cerberus going to do about it? They are terrorists - they can't very well complain if they get arrested for swanning into the Citadel in an exact replica of a top secret Turian/Human military ship that was supposedly destroyed in mysterious circumstances. I doubt Udina or Anderson would be very vocal in supporting their rights...

If you really couldn't convince the Council, then you could still go military. Contact Ash or Kaiden, or ask Anderson to point you to someone who would spare a ship and crew. The fact is that human colonies are being attacked and someone has to do something about it. Ash and Kaiden even say that they would have helped if Shepard had just come to them (and I was screaming at the screen, wondering why I hadn't been allowed to do just that).

It's the disparity between how the game treats your interaction with the Council/Alliance and Cerberus that really kills it. See the Council in both games and it makes you shout and rail at them, as they accuse you of all sorts (usually even when you're trying to be polite).

And this is blatant manipulation by Bioware, because you can make no such arguments to The Illusive Man. Your resistance to co-operation with Cerberus is all 'I don't know if I can trust you' and 'You're racist terrorists etc'. But that's completely besides the point! It isn't about trust or whether I prefer the system - it's the fact that they are so unremittingly vicious and wiped out whole colonies themselves with their experiments - on humans I might add.

It doesn't help that Cerberus have been changed since the last game. Whereas before, they were esentially a bioweapons 'Science without morals for the furthance of Humanity' version of Babylon 5's Psi-Corps, they are now portrayed as a more open, Maquis style group.

That's a big change, because the Maquis generate considerably more sympathy than the Psi-Corps. The former are frequently written as heroes, fighting off evil on their borders at any cost, whilst the Federation does nothing to help (which is basically what Cerberus now are).

Conversations with them and their followers always get boiled down to 'they get the **** done, whilst the Council do nothing etc etc.' Never mind that it only works like that because Bioware have manipulated it that way. (In a similar way that regardless of what you did with the Rachni in ME1, they chewed you out - Bioware just didn't want you to like them).

Cerberus are suddenly vastly more informed, armed, possessed of incredible tech etc and the Alliance is just blanket termed as stupid and neglectful, despite this being highly improbable (would the Council really not send even one of their other Spectres to investigate or the Alliance really not have any problems with no help from them?!)

And the whole ship is like a gigantic piece of Cerberus propaganda. The crew is filled with elements intended to seduce players into accepting Cerberus. Bright, plucky, loveable crackpots like the engineering duo and Yeoman Chambers, EDI, the cranky cook etc, make the ship seem warm and friendly. The presence of Joker and Dr Chakwas also supports this (who are just two examples of people who should know better, going along with this - Samara is another).

The crew constantly make 'good honest working folk' conversation as you pass, about their kids and families and how they'd be dead if it wasn't for Cerberus etc etc. They put in the sexy, ice queen with all the curves etc to win over 'The Lads' and give you this entirely artifical feel of freedom to do what you want, with no Council or Alliance ordering you about (again, highly manipulative, as it was always very odd that Shepard had so much oversight, despite the Spectre mandate sugesting that wouldn't be the case).

But this is all just window dressing to get the player on side. We know what Cerberus have done - the first game was filled with tales of their terrible misdeeds. They injected acid blood into helpless victims just to see what would happen. They transformed people into biological weapons and killed everyone who tried to expose them.

Making Shepard throw in with these people and not letting her tell the ridiculously ignorant crew members about the horrors she has seen their organisation perpetrate is just too much. Because it's clear from the way they talk, people only conisder Cereberus' dark rep to be about possible alien racism and defiance of Alliance and Council with acts of terrorism etc.

Which are hardly small crimes, but certain disenfranchised people could get on board with that. Their medical horroshows though are an entirely different matter. And saying it was particular cells, just shows the danger that an organisation with such lax oversight (if you want to say TIM didn't know or approve of those cells), is capable of becoming.

Basically the game only shows you the tourist spots of Cerberus. It gives you the illusion of being in a freedom fighter group, without flagging up or even mentioning their darker side in all but the most vague and skimmed over terms. Would Samara really join an organisation that did the things in ME1? She kills people for doing anything wrong - except mass muder and medical torture it seems.

The game only works if you buy into this highly manipulated and railroaded path. Just saying Shepard is doing the only thing she can, doesn't make it true. She doesn't need the Normandy - the intro makes it abundantly clear that it isn't the ideal ship for the job anyway! The collectors can see through the Stealth System - which is the only advantage the Normandy had.

A Paragon Shepard should be trying to convince the Council and Alliance to give her control of a much heavier craft, a Cruiser or something. And just because the game doesn't let you or the Council speak to each other like civilised beings, doesn't make it believable - it exposes how badly executed and manipulated the story is.

And lastly... there is the whole 'Dead for two years' nonsense. Clearly just put in to give you a reason to thank Cerberus and be wiling to work with them. Putting aside the utter nonsense of the whole thing (you can recreate the Prothean cipher, Shepard's mind etc, along with her body?), it's all over in a flash.

Shepard takes it all very well, doesn't she? She doesn't even say anything about it, never dwells on it and even if you stated that you believed in God in ME1, doesn't worry that she experienced nothing whilst 'dead' etc. Plus no-one else seems remotely interested in this event (Tali must see this sort of thing a lot...).

The fact is, it's not real to her or us, because so little is made of it. And saying that she and her love interest etc should be grateful and do whatever Cerberus say is utterly ridiculous. If a loved one returned from the dead, but was completely different from the person you knew in terms of morality, it'd be worse than if they never came back.

You don't just stop being who you are, and Paragon Shepard towing the line of an organisation she fought and hated for their evil and sadism, because they saved her... Well it feels uncomfortably like a rape victim broken to the Master's Lash, just because the Master is being nice to them for now (particularly if you lived through Akuze).

At the very least, it deserved some soul searching, where a Paragon would have to weigh their disgust at the organisation to the relief and bewilderment that they resurrected her. There were great possibilities for inner torment etc there, the need for her to carry on and be a symbol for Humanity now she is back.

But instead... nothing.

 And it could so easily have been avoided. If you want to make Shepard have to follow Cerberus, take the Council etc out of the equation on a more believeable note. Have them engaged in war against certain races for example, so their attention is focused on a threat they can see, as opposed to a threat that might be coming.

It would be easier for the Paragon to accept their decision not to help under those circumstances. You could also say that your previous team members are away in that conflict, where you cannot follow them, much as you want to see them - because you have a Shadow war (don't say it) to fight, for which you have no option but to use Cerberus.

THAT is something I could have got behind. It would have made sense to me, rather than the 'But thou must!' way that you're made to serve Cerberus, as it stands.

In this situation, you would be able to cut away the Citadel altogether. Might annoy some, but it serves no purpose in this game anyway. It's a just a cancerously sparse location that exposes how railroaded you are into accepting working for our friends, the big C.

On the offchance that you're still reading this, I say again that I have written this as someone who cares about the series and Bioware. But having to do Cereberus' bidding, when I had so many other options on how to proceed, made me thororougly miserable.

I just couldn't enjoy the game, because I was constantly frustrated at how I was unable to defend myself when people said 'You're with Cerberus - you're a fool, they're evil etc', given that I agreed 100%, but wasn't allowed to say anything other than 'I have to - it's the only way...' (and sometimes you can't even say that)>

And to add insult to injury, they even give you side missions! So not only am I helping them on the main mission, I have to do their dirty work, securing materials and weapons for them?

I think not!

[Shrewsbury760]

You have perfectly articulated everything I felt about Cerberus when playing the game. I hated Cerberus and everything about them. I frequently wanted to call out the Illusive Man for his crap, but hey, the dialogue options weren't there! I took a pretty instant dislike to Miranda and Jacob and deliberately tried to engineer events in the last mission so Miranda would die (which I succeeded at, I'm happy to say. Good riddance!) The first chance I got to play the game without Cerberus squad members was one I jumped at, and I didn't miss either of them.

[Guaritor]

As a paragon... with the lives of thousands of humans at risk... i'd take the cerebrus gift instead of going through the politics of the citadel and the alliance fleet, make sure the collectors don't take one more damn human life.

[The Greywolf]

Good points, if it was real life.

It's a game only, however, and a trilogy. I doubt Shep and Cerberus will remain allied for

long. I imagine she/he will blow them off in ME3. Remember what they said, that ME2 was

the much darker middle chapter, much like 'Empire Strikes Back' was for Star Wars. I empected

grim. though Jack's loyalty mission was harrowing. I REALLY wanted to kick Cerberus ass

after it was over. If there is any justice, in ME3, we WILL get the kick both Cerberus AND

Reaper ass.

[JudgeQwerty]

I completely agree with you aside frome one point. EDI reveals that the Illusive Man personally oversees every Cerberus project and you see quite a bit of evidence TIM was responsible for much of the mad science in the early stories. But yes, Paragon Shep is none too Paragon.



When I played the game, I assumed you were being used as Cerberus propaganda. "We brought back the man who saved the galaxy so we could help him save humanity once more! Join Cerberus now!"



But they never really take advantage of the idea...

[SunfighterG8]

Welcome to the world of the grey. Even the best of people are at times working with the devils.



You sound like the type that replays his game over and over till he gets the perfect no deaths outcome, totally oblivious to the concept of the game that youve bought.

[Wintermist]

You really make some excellent points here.

[x895771]

I see your point, but what you're asking would require a completely different story arc for Paragons, the game already spans two dvds. If a game company where to make a game that allowed you to completely make every decision you felt your character would make, while allowing other players to do so as well, then we would probably be waiting another 5 years for the game and it would span a half dozen blu-rays. The story needs to be boxed in to some degree, otherwise it becomes an impossibly large project.

[Wintermist]

x895771 wrote...

I see your point, but what you're asking would require a completely different story arc for Paragons, the game already spans two dvds. If a game company where to make a game that allowed you to completely make every decision you felt your character would make, while allowing other players to do so as well, then we would probably be waiting another 5 years for the game and it would span a half dozen blu-rays. The story needs to be boxed in to some degree, otherwise it becomes an impossibly large project.

But it does raise the question if the story should perhaps not have been done differently although the ultimate goal remained the same.

[ArcanistLibram]

Cerberus is the only faction in the entire galaxy able or even willing to do something about the attacks against human colonies.

[vallix]

Are you the type of person who plays a game with the soul intention of picking it apart and almost forcing yourself to hate it until proven otherwise?

You seem like the type who's very hard to satisfy, at least with sequels and judging from this psot. Sure all your points are excellent, I'm not taking that away from you. However, this is a video game, yes the 'ol boring cliche response, but it's true. You're taking it way too serious. Besides what you're asking for is simply unreasonable.

Modifié par vallix, 01 février 2010 - 02:55 .

[Wintermist]

Personally I enjoy an analysis like this. It's food for thought.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cerberus made yourr character come back to life, gave him a new ship and ressources, and is the only faction that is willing to do something about the collectors and he still complains? Wow. It's like the "But I don't want to be a Grey warden!" all over again.
Your character can still send Cerberus secrets to the Alliance and can quit at the end.

EDIT: and Cerberus is only a "terrorist organsiation" to the Council and the System's alliance. I don't consider it as such.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 février 2010 - 03:02 .

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Ok I can see people's frustration at the idea of working for Cerberus, but there is not enough known information to be denouncing them as pure evil. Taken at face value I would have a vast amount of respect for the organization and their goals. The few incidents in ME1 are hardly enough to be absolutely sure that TIM is the devil. Do you think that the alliance military or the council has perfectly clean records when dealing with torture and experimentation? Because Cerberus is more concerned with getting things done than public opinion is respect-worthy.



Could TIM turn out to be evil? Absolutely, Cerberus could be in league with the reapers or something equally horrible. For the purposes of my mission, however, they were providing me with the resources necessary to save MANY human lives. I can live with that. If you want to fight with a group that is 100% pure you will spend the rest of your life looking for a group that doesn't exist.

[JudgeQwerty]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Cerberus is the only faction in the entire galaxy able or even willing to do something about the attacks against human colonies.

That's exactly what they're talking about.

[Lyrandori]

ModernDayMoriarty, I read your entire post and I really liked it, you made very good points, but in the end I will allow myself to tell you with due respect that you are naive. Like The Greywolf said, Mass Effect is a trilogy, and like BioWare themselves said (especially in the documentary videos from the bonus material of the Digital Deluxe Edition) that ME2 is the "Empire Strikes Back of the Mass Effect universe", it's darker in every possible way, and it leads the player to confusion, heart-breaking decisions that directly goes against his/her will, unexpected casualties, "tough to chose from" options, and it also leads to temptation and treason (love interests, sending viable information to Cerberus instead of the Alliance especially in one particular mission), and so on.



Also, Mass Effect has a main writer, it's a game for us to enjoy, but at its base there's one guy having ideas for the main characters including Shepard, just like a movie, we HAVE to experience what the author(s) of the story, of the ME's lore want us to experience whether or not we like or, or whether or not it "makes sense" in terms of game-play and how "amusing" it is, or isn't. In the end it doesn't really matter, the events of the game in ME2 had to be the way they are simply because that's how we had to experience them, it's like... well, anything else in arts or literature, that despite what you think of one's creation you are exposed to that creation in its brute form and you can't do anything about it, ME2 needed to be darker according to the author(s), it's how BioWare had to work with that in mind, they had the skeleton ready for them, then they needed to add the rest up to the skin and personality.



I actually DO agree with most of your points. That in terms of story elements it seems or simply IS controversial and goes directly against a cliché Paragon "all good and hug-loving" character would want to do, the thing is despite being a good person the ENTIRE galaxy during THAT particular time and during those particular events in the ME's lore becomes darker, move malevolent WHATEVER your personality is. It's exactly like Empires Strike Back, it's true, you can be all good and call yourself Yoda or Luke Skywalker and you'd WANT to help each and every single Asari prostitute to have a better life and each and every single thugs to settle down and get a family instead of killing innocents, but despite your good will the darker scheme of things are always against you and always put obstacles before you that FORCE you to leave your "good will" behind and move on to more direct and tougher approaches.



Briefly said, even for a Paragon character Mass Effect 2 plays in a much darker way, and whether or not it makes sense we have to deal with it because the time period covered in ME2's events relate to cruelty, inhuman doings, suffering, destruction, corruption, temptation, fear, anger... everything that would push a Jedi to the Dark Side of the Force, and we as players need to RESIST the best way we can while hypocritically "playing along" with the others and smiling to them even when we feel like betraying them all as much as a clerk in a store needs to smile to the clients when he feels like setting fire to the whole place because he missed his toasts and dropped coffee on him that morning.

[Garuda One]

I agree with this post but thats just it. They want true Paragon players like you imparticularly ModernDay to feel this sort of thing about Cerberus. TIM flips out on you at the end of the game if you go true Paragon and the effects of that will show in Mass Effect 3. The entire game is suppose to make you as the player to ether enjoy the story as a Renegade, killing and doing all sorts of things or resent Cerberus even more because as Paragon players like you and me we know the disgusting things Cerberus did in the first game, this again as much as the developers implied this, this is the second dark act.

Everything about this game is suppose to be evil and disgusting. Even more so with how everyone seems so cheerful. Everyone in the ship expect the people I will explain below see Cerberus as doing the right thing. They don't see behind the sugar coated topping. Also if you haven't noticed the Cook and the one crew member in the crew sleeping quarter only joined Cerberus because of deeply stressed issues. The cook in particular had some issues with Alliance I believe and his childern and wife died.

Though, on a side note. The engineers, Dr. Chakwas, Joker and anyone from the previous game besides Kaiden or Ashely are only even inside the Cerberus vessel is because YOU are leading this mission, not the Illusive Man. Yes, I understand that we could talk for months to the Council about getting Shepard a crew or asking Anderson but part of the story is the rush to stop the Collectors from stealing human colonies and ultimately killing off all sentient life in the Milky Way Galaxy. Everyone besides Cerberus and Anderson see the real threat, everyone else thinks you've ether been brain washed, ie Kaiden or Ashely or that your insane, ie the Council. Hell even Tali and Garrus state that there covering up any knowledge of the Reapers and blaming it on the Geth.

You already have a crew and team as well as a ship already to go to stop the Collectors. Everyone is behind you the player and as a Paragon you can follow his orders or disobey them, again it doesn't seem like disobeying them because of the fact that, truthfully TIM and Paragon Shepards missions do intertwine. TIM only wants to save humans at any cost, you want to not only save humanity but also everyone else in the Galaxy, partly the reason why you can give crucial data to Alliance, blow up the Collector Ship and few other things as well.

The way I see it. If you were truly Paragon in the second game my money is on that TIM becomes like Saren. Saren saw the Reaper threat and thought the only way to save everyone was to make everyone into the Collectors ultimately. TIM sees the same thing and giving him the Collector knowledge in the end will most likely do the same thing eventually as well. You may save everyone in the third game but off screen TIM will become like him and thus starting over the entire Mass Effect history over again.

Modifié par Garuda One, 01 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[DesetFox1943]

Friggin Paragons >_>

[Veritasinpersonam]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Cerberus is the only faction in the entire galaxy able or even willing to do something about the attacks against human colonies.

This.

The Council and the Systems Alliance both think Shepard was dangerously delusional. There is no way Shepard is talking either group into commanding a ship when both are convinced the Reaper threat is not real. 
Additionally its a bit hard to buy the "back from the dead". If someone told you this story, you'd think they were nuts and at most wonder what they did for the last two years. Even if they buy the Lazarus project idea, there is no telling what was done to Shepard's mind. Shepard is simply in no way a credible source.

Giving the Systems Alliance a new and improved copy of their best ship would tie up the whole piece as the military investigate how their most advanced ship was built in secret by an outside organization.

Truth is, Cerberus invested so much in Shepard (Lazarus Project) that they're not likely to kill him for being disobedient. Cerberus also fully accepts that the Reapers are real (although it is a good question as to why) and provided Shepard nearly unilimited resources with carte blanche to proceed however he sees fit. Shepard, being fully aware of the enormity of the threat, would be hard pressed not to take advantage of the opportunity, as distasteful as the source may be.

[JudgeQwerty]

I don't really blame the Council, though. Shephard really can come off as a delusional maniac spouting apocalyptic babble while openly working with terrorists. The real problem is that you can't choose NOT to work with terrorists,

[MikeFL25]

I completely agree! Why can't Shepard just walk up to the Council and officially denounce Cerberus, then continue his mission as a member of the Alliance/Spectres? TIM allows Shepard free will, after all.



I also agree that working with Cerberus and the poor interaction between Shepard and characters I cared about really prevented me from enjoying the game as much as I could have. I was yelling to myself when Anderson and the Council basically said, "You are with Cerberus so I can't talk with you." When Ashley/Kaiden sees you, they rip you apart for being with Cerberus, and I wanted to tell them I agreed, but I couldn't do that either.



When I play Mass Effect, I ALWAYS go Paragon, because it is what I believe to be the right thing to do in the game world. I had 1 renegade playthrough, only to see what it was like. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the second Paragon Shepard got his ship, he didn't rip off all the Cerberus logos and get re-instated into the Alliance.



As far as the game having a "dark" feel, I think it could have been done better by making the task of the suicide mission more daunting, instead of artificially darkening the game by forcing you to work with Cerberus. At any rate, I always go for (and get) the ending where everyone survives. Why? Because Paragon Shepard is a great leader and as long as he can prevent someone from dying, he will.

[MatronAdena]

I felt the same way, I found a few choices that at least made it clear I was rejecting Cerberus and going rogue. Every time Someone said I was with Cerberus, I made it clear I was working through them, not with them " though I wish the outcome was a more blunt " I'm just using them"



When I recovered the " damaging Cerberus data" I forwarded it to the Alliance, not Cerberus, and did everything there was that allowed you to undermine them.



I did feel spiffy after I beat the game and went to talk to Jacob and he said " one hell of a way to tell the boss you quit!" so I felt alittle vindicated there...



but that said, I REALLY feel there should have been better options as to what to say that would distance yourself from them.

[x895771]

Well, in defense of the story;



The council has no interest in helping, none at all, even though it's supposedly under human control, it seems like the human ambassador is only interested in appeasing the other races. All other races consider it to be humanity's fault for settling in dangerous territories to begin with, everyone refutes the existence of both the collectors and reapers and Cerberus is the only organisation willing AND able to support Shepard's war. To me, the Paragon storyline shows a human side of Shepard a little more, it shows that sometimes she is willing to humble herself a little and work with the only group willing to deal with the problem, no matter what their history is. There's an old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."



For Shepard to simply tell off Cerberus and attempt to piece together some sort of plan on her own, with or without whatever little support she could get from any other organisation, it would require that she be willing to allow the collectors to continue unchallenged until she gathered the resources needed to fight them. Keeping in mind that the resources she needed where already being provided by Cerberus.



I think ME3 will have Shepard break away from Cerberus and bury them, whatever ulterior motive TIM may have will be crushed by Shepard and in many ways will show that she allowed herself to be "manipulated" while gathering the intel she needed to take Cerberus, the Collectors and the Reapers down all at the same.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

DesetFox1943 wrote...

Friggin Paragons >_>

This.

Does anyone else play Renegade not because it's badass (even though it is) but because that is the best way to save human lives? The "no one needs to die" idealism is nice to think about, but when a war is going on the enemies need to be taken out and I will team up with anyone who gives me the best opportunity to do so.

[-Area51-Silent]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. While Cerberus is what it is, a psychotic organization that looks to futher humanity and does the most terrible things to people, its a means of use, funding and ability.



The USA was allies with the USSR during WWII, that doesn't mean it stayed that way when it was over. Cerberus has just as much to lose as anyone else does if the Reapers kill all organic life, thus the idea of an unlikely alliance makes sense, and is reinforced by the fact that the Council wants to deny the existance of the Reaper threat (until its to late AGAIN).



To me it makes sense, Shepard doesn't seam to buy into the loyalty of the Cerberus organization, and if you talk to the crew, none of them really know what Cerberus is outside of the operation they are currently working on in the Normandy SR2. When you are just out of options to protect humanity, you take help anywhere....anywhere!



just my thoughts.