265 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

First off, there is no telling what it is doing with its "interaction" with the Citadel from outside of Shepard's viewpoint. Secondly, there is no corpse to analyze. It was blown to bits and then illegaly salvaged, remember?. Advanced technology does not make it a Reaper.

A recovered communication log with the Geth talking about Reapers without Shepard's context is meaningless. Exchange Reaper with the word Blork; it makes no difference.

Again, possibly as much as half of Sovereign's corpse is in the hand of the Council, we could be conservative and say a third.  That's more than enough to be able to tell the things you'd need to know about it to deduce what you'd need to know to correlate it with Shepard's descriptions of Reapers.  After almost having their government destroyed, the Council should be *eager* to find what information they can about who did it and why, but instead they insist on putting their heads in the sand.  That's bad characterization right there.

Up to 66% of a ship is missing that arrived with a gigantic Geth fleet and you're finding it problematic that the Council does not believe it's a Reaper. You can't substitute imaginary evidence that Sovereign is a reaper when it is convenient for you. Most of Sovereign is gone. Combined with the lack of any technical data about the Geth and it would make sense for Sovereign to be considered a giant Geth construction. You're really reaching for the Reaper connection but there simply isn't one.

"It's a Reaper!"

"How do you know?"

"Just look at it!"

"Most of it is gone, and there is no evidence supporting that it cannot be just an advanced Geth battleship."

"Well...it has big cannons!"

"Geth can't have big cannons?"

"Well, it told me so!"

"Oh, okay Commander Shepard. Here is an infinite supply of resources for you to jump into the Omega 4 Relay".

[Sharn01]

I approve of this post.



I did not feel it hurt the game much, it was still good but could have been better.'



I will point out though that it seems Bioware assumes that Shepard is a sadistic, racist, douche-bag.



If you try to start a new game with out a former save from ME, Wrex is dead, the council is dead, Udina of all people is running things, who Shep should have told off as soon as she became a Spectre since technicly she then outranked him, and probably every other choice was renegade also.

[Whailor]

While "my Shepard" doesn't like Cerberus that much, he doesn't exactly hate them. In ME1, the missions he did, these were just that, missions. Some of the many. There were many messed up things done in many places and by many organizations and Cerberus was just one of them. Admiral Kahooku - well, I didn't know him so whether he was killed by Cerberus or not didn't matter to me. When I got to that base where he was dead, in ME1, all I thought was "Oh well, guess we're done here." Corporal Toombs? My char is a spacer and a "war hero", he has more reasons to hate batarians then anyone else. So my Shepard is working with them on this mission in ME2, but he is not working for them. He doesn't blindly follow Alliance or Council either since neither of those organizations, as it came out, cares much about him. They just want to sweep the disturbing things or things they don't have answers to under the rug and not admit the truth, as it would mean additional effort to them, the requirement to invest resources for investigation, take responsibility. Makes me at times feel that another Sovereign should just pop out near Citadel again and start tearing it apart and then my Shepard wouldn't do anything, instead just send a message to the Council and Alliance and everyone and just say "Told you so but you screwed around, now deal with this s*** yourself!"



Also, OP is speaking as a person who played ME1 and who has imported his or her chars from ME1 to ME2. That already, sort of, gives to you some extra "luggage" which doesn't necessarily go for those to whom ME2 is their "first ME". If you start ME2 with totally new char then you will see that things are actually quite different from what you had chosen in ME1, perhaps. Very first time I played ME2 was when I hadn't yet imported my ME1 chars and I immediately saw that the setting was totally different. So if you'd start your "ME experience" in ME2 and with a totally fresh char, all these choices would perhaps seem natural to you.



I do agree, of course, that if the game developer makes something a trilogy, where are so many different options and the ability to continue the game with the char from the first or previous games - which I think is an excellent idea, I am all for it - then they really should work harder and not 'lazy out' and add way more options into the game, so that people from previous games could continue "their line" instead of being forced onto totally different track which may contradict with their choices and preferences from before.

[Whailor]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...
Up to 66% of a ship is missing that arrived with a gigantic Geth fleet and you're finding it problematic that the Council does not believe it's a Reaper. You can't substitute imaginary evidence that Sovereign is a reaper when it is convenient for you. Most of Sovereign is gone. Combined with the lack of any technical data about the Geth and it would make sense for Sovereign to be considered a giant Geth construction. You're really reaching for the Reaper connection but there simply isn't one.

There's one little problem with this statement - the Council DID see the reaper, Sovereign, and know well enough that it is not a geth "machinery". Assuming that the Council in mind is the same one from ME1 and you saved them. If it would be some new Council due to old one being wiped out then yes, I would see them say that, but if it's the "old" Council then it's obvious that they simply want to have as little fuss as possible. Their attitude is that "well, there's no Reaper attacking us now so there's no real threat and that Shepard is just an annoying pest with his doomsday messages." They're simply being politicians and as long as there's no issue what they can see with their own eyes or touch it, they feel it's much easier to dismiss it as ramblings of a single person rather then take the responsibility for actions and investigate the thing and spend resources.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Whailor wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...
Up to 66% of a ship is missing that arrived with a gigantic Geth fleet and you're finding it problematic that the Council does not believe it's a Reaper. You can't substitute imaginary evidence that Sovereign is a reaper when it is convenient for you. Most of Sovereign is gone. Combined with the lack of any technical data about the Geth and it would make sense for Sovereign to be considered a giant Geth construction. You're really reaching for the Reaper connection but there simply isn't one.

There's one little problem with this statement - the Council DID see the reaper, Sovereign, and know well enough that it is not a geth "machinery".

Please point me out evidence that supports your assertion that the Council knows Sovereign is a reaper and not Geth. I'm not talking about "Gee, it's a giant ship, it must be the Reaper Shepard was talking about!"

hey're simply being politicians and as long as
there's no issue what they can see with their own eyes or touch it, they
feel it's much easier to dismiss it as ramblings of a single person
rather then take the responsibility for actions and investigate the
thing and spend resources.

I would argue for this very point except it would not make sense to hush things for political expediency if their political careers were to end soon after with a Reaper invasion. It would make more sense for them to give Shepard and be part of the "winning side" for re-election.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 06:19 .

[Terraneaux]

"It's a Reaper!"

"How do you know?"

"Just look at it!"

"Most of it is gone, and there is no evidence supporting that it cannot be just an advanced Geth battleship."

"Well...it has big cannons!"

"Geth can't have big cannons?"

"Well, it told me so!"

"Oh, okay Commander Shepard. Here is an infinite supply of resources for you to jump into the Omega 4 Relay".

"It's a Reaper!"

"How do you know?"

"It told me!"

"Most of it is gone, and there is no evidence supporting that it cannot be just an advanced Geth battleship."

"Its weapons are far in advance of anything the Geth used themselves; in fact, you'll notice that there are no points of design transparency between this ship and the Geth ships accompanying it.  These ships were built from entirely different technological bases."

"Just because it's different doesn't mean it's a 'Reaper'."

"Well, take note that the ship's infrastructure is meant to be run *entirely* off of its onboard AI.  Also, if you use any of a number of dating techniques on this thing you'll find that its *old,* older than anything from either of our civilizations.  It's an ancient AI-controlled ship, more powerful than anything else we've seen, and it stands to reason that there are more out there."

"That... unfortunately makes a lot of sense."

Modifié par Terraneaux, 02 février 2010 - 06:22 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

"Its weapons are far in advance of anything the Geth used themselves; in fact, you'll notice that there are no points of design transparency between this ship and the Geth ships accompanying it.  These ships were
built from entirely different technological bases."

"Quite similar to the Normandy, Shepard."

"Well, take note that the ship's infrastructure is meant to be run *entirely* off of its onboard AI.  Also, if you use any of a number of  dating techniques on this thing you'll find that its *old,* older than anything from either of our civilizations.  It's an ancient AI-controlled ship, more powerful than anything else we've seen, and it stands to reason that there are more out there."

"What infrastructure, Shepard? It is mostly gone!"

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 06:25 .

[Terraneaux]

"Quite similar to the Normandy, Shepard."

The Normandy has obvious similarities to both human and Turian vessels, it's made out of the same kinds of things and in the same general fashion, just more advanced.  Sovereign is *nothing* like a Geth ship.  

"What infrastructure, Shepard? It is mostly gone!"

Again, they've retrieved as much as 50% of that thing.  That's more than enough to tell that it wasn't designed to fly with a crew and such.  Plus any of those pieces could be dated.

[asaiasai]

See dude you made some excellent points, but in the end you missed one important thing. When the mission is over those who survived are not loyal to Cerbrus they are loyat to YOU. The boat might belong to Cerbrus but i would like to see them actually file a piracy complaint with the Alliance, yea that is going to happen. The worst case senario is that you have to pay your own way instead of flying around using a TIM's corporate American Express Card. Cerbrus is using you but there is nothing that says you can not use them back.



The Council is sitting around with their heads shoved up thier collective asses, but i dealt with the reapers once already with out Council intervention even to the point that i stole the Normandy the first time. The most important thing to remember in a conflict is "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", Allies of convience. You have to prioritize your tasks and in this matter the Collectors and the reapers are task 1 everything else is secondary. I fully intend developers willing to hunt TIM down and put one right between his eyes, probably let Jack get mean with him first right after i do the same to the reapers.



I understand completely what your saying there are times when the dialog options do not reflect what i would like to do but as someone pointed out they can not cover every contingency so you take what they give you and just enjoy the ride. I thought the game was pretty good actually not quite as good as DAO from a character depth point of view, but over all i thought it was an impovment over ME, which was also good, so you really can not ask for more than that. They made ME and then improved on it with ME2, it looks better, plays better, the interfaces were cleaner and less clunky and the story was done well.



The truth of the matter is by working with Cerbrus you are now unrestrained by anyone. Sure TIM thinks he is in control and it is good that you let him think that, it makes your job easier. The ship is yours, the crew is loyal to you, you have TIM's financial resources, but most important TIM unlike the Council is willing to get the hell out of your way and let you do what needs to be done in what ever manner you want (of course within the game designs). In the overall story line i would much rather work with TIM than deal with Council politics. Now while being a Spectre in ME2 is different from what power the title had in ME there is not a single individual who has any brains, that will dismiss you out of hand.



Asai

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

"Quite similar to the Normandy, Shepard."

The Normandy has obvious similarities to both human and Turian vessels, it's made out of the same kinds of things and in the same general fashion, just more advanced.  Sovereign is *nothing* like a Geth ship.

How many Geth ships have you seen? Does the Alliance and the Citadel have a dossier on the entire makeup of the Geth Navy? And the Normandy is nothing like any other ships. That's mentioned very early on.

Again, they've retrieved as much as 50% of that thing.  That's more
than enough to tell that it wasn't designed to fly with a crew and such.
 Plus any of those pieces could be dated.

AI controlled ships don't really need crewmembers. I'm really doubting that a Geth ship actually has a pilot and is not just an AI. You might be onto something with the dating of pieces from Sovereign, but that is assuming that it is even possible.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 06:34 .

[Terraneaux]

How many Geth ships have you seen? Does the Alliance and the Citadel have a dossier on the entire makeup of the Geth Navy? And the Normandy is nothing like any other ships. That's mentioned very early on.

The Council has plenty to study after that battle.  And the Normandy has human computers, a Turian layout, human sleep chambers, hell, it's probably even got pleather seats in some of the rooms.  Everything about it matches up with human design patterns (and I assume Turian, as they helped develop it, but I can't say for sure).  

AI controlled ships don't really need crewmembers. I'm really doubting that a Geth ship actually has a pilot and is not just an AI. You might be onto something with the dating of pieces from Sovereign, but that is assuming that it is even possible.

I have no idea *what* Sovereign is made of (some sort of unobtanium), but assuming it's an atomic substance, we can probably date it.  

[Hukari]

If I may counterpoint to the Original Poster and to Mr. Terraneaux, I politely disagree on a few points mentioned in this thread. Now, some of them may be matters of opinion (in fact, I would go so far as to say that this entire thread is boiled down to a matter of differing opinions, on what is considered 'plausible', 'Paragon' actions, et cetera, et cetera.) However, I feel a few pieces of information need airing, that might help assist with this wonderful debate.



First, regarding Cerberus itself. Having played ME1, including Corporal Toombs quest, I felt that Cerberus was unashamedly evil. Or, at the -best-, ruthless. However, ME2 changed that opinion somewhat. Certain sects are ruthless, and the idea of ruthlessness seems ingrained in certain areas (namely the research and science divisions), but Cerberus, like it's namesake, has many heads. As Miranda says, they have political, scientific, and military divisions. The groups we met in the first game, and those that comitted the atrocities upon Jack and Toombs, were of the scientific divisions.



Normandy SR2, however, -has- no shipboard scientist (discounting Miranda. Though it always struck me as odd why the scientist behind Project Lazarus, the greatest medical advancement in history, couldn't serve as a ship scientist. But I digress). All of the members on board the Normandy are from the paramilitary divisions. And, in fact, a good portion of -those- are ex-Alliance (which makes a great deal of sense, as up until 2 or so years ago, Cerberus was an Alliance black ops group. This also explains how they have such a large network, as EDI explains Cerberus recieved funding from corporations in the military-industrial complex, and have a shipbuilding company- most likely the same one that helped build the Normandy SR1).



In essence, the main gripes against the SR2 and it's crew, is based on the actions of people they were not aware of. A ship's cook or engineer isn't going to know about Cerberus's scientific division, and so blaming them for the faults of the Illusive Man's evil science is like... well... it's like blaming the Coast Guard for atrocities comitted in a ground war. Sure, they may both be part of the same overall organization, but their goals, methods, and styles are completely different.



Now, as to the topic of why we cannot go to the Council. This, I feel, is fairly well-written, actually. As a Paragon player, the first thing I did after getting the SR2, was head to the Citadel. I admit, I was somewhat surprised at how paranoid the Council had became over the 2 year period after me saving their butts, but when I looked at it, I cannot say that any other career politician wouldn't do the same.



The Council is not some enlightened branch of philosophers, debating over tables how best to make things better. They're career politicians, men of prominence. What is a politician's overriding concern, once they've been ingrained in a position for any length of time? Maintaining that position. Admitting that there were a race of hyper-advanced AI dreadnaughts lying on the edge of dark space, waiting to obliterate the galaxy, and that it took the combined forces of the Citadel to destroy just -one-, is a politician's nightmare. Law and order would be impossible to maintain, chaos would erupt, and probably several revolutions.



It also makes sense psychologically. Great trauma takes time to digest, and to understand. The Council is currently in the denial phase of understanding. It is easier to make a problem disappear, than it is to make difficult decisions. And those that -do- make difficult decisions, tend to have criticism, skepticism, and witticisms thrown at them left and right.



In essence, my point boils down to this: Whilst working with Cerberus for a short period of time is certainly not ideal, they -are- the only ones that could help. The Alliance is recovering from Sovereign's attack, the Council finds it more expedient to brand Shepard a loon than to face a fact that might remove them from rulership, and Cerberus provides you with nigh-unlimited resources and free reign (barring a few incidents, and you can bet my Shepard chewed out the Illusive Man for endangering his crew). In essence, to me, a Paragon is a peacemaker. He compromises, and tries to make an equitable deal for all parties. If there were the option to take command of Cerberus, and change it into a force for good, my Shepard would do that. Because it's the right thing to do, and the right way to go about it, as the only unifying thing between Cerberus's science divisions and it's military divisions... is that they all report back to TIM.



But, I'm afraid I've rambled on a bit, and this will probably be highly uninteresting for anyone to read. However, I'd like to say that this debate is fascinating, and I am enjoying the civility under which it is carried out. I hope the tone stays the same, as I shall be participating in it further.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

The Council has plenty to study after that battle.  And the Normandy has human computers, a Turian layout, human sleep chambers, hell, it's probably even got pleather seats in some of the rooms.  Everything about it matches up with human design patterns (and I assume Turian, as they helped develop it, but I can't say for sure).

Nothing is known about Geth design patterns; intel on them is severely lacking. All that is really known is that they are AI; just like Sovereign was AI.

I have no idea *what* Sovereign is made of (some sort of unobtanium),
but assuming it's an atomic substance, we can probably date it.

 There are a lot of variables that would make such dating complicated, but it is the most plausible out of every argument that you have presented to me. Sadly, there is not enough information for us to really even conjecture about it without BioWare stepping in and telling us what is and is not possible in ME's universe in regards to researching the age of Sovereign using pieces.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 07:01 .

[Elric70]

I read most of your post and I would have to say that, when I played through I took it upon myself that my Shepard would be not confrontational, but would not implicitly trust anything the Illusive Man said outright. Shepard as I see him and played him is like Batman needing to team up with the Joker to save all of Gotham City. He would not wish this, and he would not trust him any more than was absolutely necessary, but he would do it for the greater threat present and to accomplish the greatest good. I found as I played the game that both Jacob and Miranda were well done and there was an immense sense of satisfaction near the end with an interaction Miranda had with the Illusive Man. I was not pleased with the way some of the old crew reacted towards me, but I guess they were as inflexible as you in your hatred for Cerberus. They seemed to have forgotten that I was the Shepard that they went through blood and death with and just saw me as an extension of the evil Cerberus represents. At least that is for the most part what I believe would flow best with the story overall. What I wonder is now that the cast has grown even larger with friends, allies, confidants and enemies, how many of them will actually return for Mass Effect 3?

[RiouHotaru]

Having read the OP and the back and forth arguments, allow me to put forth the following ideas for consideration:

- Post-game, EDI, now without any of the former blocks, tells you that Cerberus consists of only 150 agents operating over about a dozen or so cells, none of which communicate with one another, except through TIM.  Therefore, the left hand and right hand never meet, with only the head talking to each head.  Therefore, while ME1's Cerberus sect is decsively evil, they are operating entirely on their own, with little supervision.  Even Miranda goes so far as to say that branch went way over the line.  Heck, the only reason the Normandy SR-1 even exists was due to Cerberus.

- Shepard owes Cerberus his/her life.  Also, TIM is aware of a threat that the Alliance and Council refuse to do anything about or address directly.  The Alliance even suspects Cerberus is the one kidnapping the colonists (one of the most god-awful theories out there really)  Now, before anyone yells about the Council being idiots, remember the politics involved.  The Council fleet, as well as the Alliance fleet, was demolished by Sovereign.  Even IF the Council believed you, they, nor the Alliance, have the resources to assist you.  The Council doesn't want to believe you or condone your theory, because in their mind, on the off-chance Shepard is wrong, they all look bad in the eyes of all the Council races for playing along in humanity's "game".  Not the best view, but a practical and utilitarian one.

- As TIM is willing to not only bring Shepard back, but provide him with a ship, crew, and the resources in good faith, Shepard likely (while incredibly skeptical) sees no harm in playing along.  Remember, TIM says repeatedly that Shepard is free to act as he/she sees fit, so long as he can find the answer to the Collectors and deal with them.  Shepard has no reason to look this gift-horse in the mouth.  It's reasonable to take TIM's offer with a grain of salt, but to outright distrust him makes no sense.

- In general, your allies are following YOU, not Cerberus.  Even Jacob and Miranda by the end of the game realize that TIM is looking out for purely human interests, rather than looking at the big picture.  Most of the crew are here because they want to be with YOU.  Not work for TIM, not participate in Cerberus's stupid experiments, but because they want to follow YOU.

- As for your allies specifically, TIM states that most of your old team is now gone, though why he lied about Liara (it's obvious in Redemption what she's up to) is anyone's guess.  The new team has to be made of fresh blood, strong, talented folks.  And this unfortunately means you'll run into folks who are imbalanced or otherwise unhinged.  For example, no one can deny that Samara or Jack aren't ridiculously powerful biotics, easily better than anything Kaiden or Miranda are capable of.

- Finally, while Cerberus is not good, neither is the Alliance or the Council.  Despite the good you're doing, the Council is tempted to charge you with treason for no other reason than your affiliation with Cerberus, and Kaiden/Ashley are a bit quick to go from "I missed you where have you been?!" to "YOU'RE A HORRIBLE DIRTY TRAITOR!" as soon as the word Cerberus comes up, and if they are your LI...their half-assed apology letter does little to minimize the sting.  I'm surprised you're so angry with Cerberus and not with the Alliance.  People should know of your Shepard's moral stance and quality of character.  If you've joined forces with Cerberus, regardless of how evil they may seem, there has to be a DAMN good reason why...Unfortunately, no one gives you the chance to tell your side, accusing you of treason and threatening violence.

In short, Cerberus is offering the only potential means of dealing with a problem.  Just because you're working with them doesn't mean you have to like them.

[CmdrFenix83]

This thread is dumb. I stopped reading on page three. The Collector's efforts are being done in the Terminus Systems. Outside of Alliance and Council jurisdiction. The colonies being taken may be human, but they are not part of the Alliance.



The Alliance has no authority. The Council, Anderson aside, thinks Shepard is a nutjob, spouting apocalyptic nonsense about a race of sentient machines that he's been dreaming about.



I am a pure paragon player myself, and going into this game I was worried about how they were going to justify my Shepards' working with Cerberus, and I thought they did a decent job of it. I took every opportunity to remind everyone that I did *not* work for Cerberus, but that Cerberus was merely financing and providing logistical(albeit usually horrible and backstabbing) support. In the end, I walked out on the Illusive Man, taking his ship and crew as my own.



Though the problem with that final choice is now Shepard has to find a way to pay for everything. I doubt the whole crew is working for free. People need to eat. The ship needs fuel, etc Cerberus gave you nearly every credit you got in ME2, and without their funding, you need to either find it from the Alliance or the Council itself, and we know they are practically worthless.

[defenestrated]

RiouHotaru wrote...

- Finally, while Cerberus is not good, neither is the Alliance or the Council.  Despite the good you're doing, the Council is tempted to charge you with treason for no other reason than your affiliation with Cerberus, and Kaiden/Ashley are a bit quick to go from "I missed you where have you been?!" to "YOU'RE A HORRIBLE DIRTY TRAITOR!" as soon as the word Cerberus comes up, and if they are your LI...their half-assed apology letter does little to minimize the sting. I'm surprised you're so angry with Cerberus and not with the Alliance.  People should know of your Shepard's moral stance and quality of character.  If you've joined forces with Cerberus, regardless of how evil they may seem, there has to be a DAMN good reason why...Unfortunately, no one gives you the chance to tell your side, accusing you of treason and threatening violence.

I love your post but in defense of everybody not in your crew, the only people who seem to know about the not-incredibly-evil things Cerberus does are the people who work for Cerberus doing not-incredibly-evil things. And TIM, but he's not big on sharing. If we only go by what we learned of Cerberus in ME1, I can understand people freaking out and yelling "traitor". Shepard, unlike many in the new Normandy crew, doesn't have the excuse of not knowing the sort of the horrible things Cerberus has done. I think it speaks to Shepard's personality that anyone was even willing to come around and say, "Maybe you've not gone to the dark side."

ETA:

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Alliance has no authority. The
Council, Anderson aside, thinks Shepard is a nutjob, spouting
apocalyptic nonsense about a race of sentient machines that he's been
dreaming about.

IIRC, the it was the same situation as Eden
Prime - the Alliance (and the Council to some degree) have authority
over the colonies themselves but not over the Terminus systems they
reside in.

Modifié par defenestrated, 02 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[abominare]

Wow long OP. The word paragon does not explicitly restrict you to Lawful Good character just as renegade does not making you chatoic evil. Shep working for cerberus is feasible for both.



Ultimately no matter if youre para or gade, sheps motivation in the game is to save human colonist and to him cerberus is going to be a means to that end. Spectres werent goody twoshoes either. The council definately wasnt going to help you as even anderson says the other members just veto any resolution to help you, ash/kaiden seriously arent in a real position to offer you true help. They got promoted yes, but theyre still middle management types not like they have their own ships or fleets to help you.



Lastly paragon just means youre looking out for the greater good of humanity and renegade just means youre primarily looking out for yourself, both need humanity to survive. Neither have any long term goals with cerberus though heck theres several missions where both paragons and renegades are sticking it to cerberus.

[ModernDayMoriarty]

I'm not blaming the Normandy's crew for being anything other than propaganda stereotypes, deliberately deployed by Bioware to facilitate their retcon of Cerberus. I am not a fan of retcon at the best of times, and this game was a particularly stinging example of it.

And yes, Cerberus may be composed of cells who know nothing of each other - but Shepard doesn't know that. Miranda at least shows that some operatives have heard of what was going on though. You have to complete missions for Cerberus command and turn over materials to them - do you honestly think they don't know what their organisation is like?

And the cells not knowing what the others were doing thing, would last only so long as it took Shepard to tell them about it. But you're not allowed to tell them - when you even remember at all! Shepard appears to just forget the most gruesome events, as she never brings them up, as I discussed earlier.

She even has the option to ask Tali 'Why do you hate Cerberus?' Has she got a 4 second memory or something? (Particularly in my case, since Tali was in my group for the whole of ME1 through the Cerberus missions!) It's as simple as this: Cerberus are utter bastards and Tali's a good person, who doesn't stand for that sort of thing.

You keep trying to flag up the 'means justify the ends' thing. I don't know why, as I've said many times that it is always possible to construct these kinds of arguments. It's just that a Paragon (or just someone of moral principles), will outright reject that idea.

As with the data that can fix the Genophage in Mordin's side quest. He comes to realise that his assistant is right in as much as there should be a cure, but not the way that his assistant went about it.  As Shepard can add, 'This data is tainted'.

And the paragon path in this situation (that actually gains you paragon points) is to destroy it, because whilst the cure is desirable, this isn't the way to obtain it. By your logic, we've condemned the Krogan to lose more lives etc in the meantime. But it's worth it, Mordin and Shepard realises, to let this evil die here, ignored, unused and without even their tacit approval.

Mordin's fury at his assistant (and himself) is that they allowed themselves to be swayed by the 'it has to be this way' Renegade view of things, when making the Genophage and now this cure. 

He realises that the genophage was NOT necessary, the strengthening of the Genophage was NOT necessary, the butchery of these krogans to find the cure was NOT necessary. They were excuses ot justify actions they had already decided to take.

Those are the conclusions Mordin comes to. They used the 'Well, if we don't do morally dubious action X and use questionable ethics device Y, then deadly occurance Z will undoubtably happen. We have to do this - it's the only way...'

But as Mordin admits, it's just conjecture, impossible to prove. The only thing that matters is because of them, people have suffered terribly. Because they didn't look for a better solution, just the one that seemed most expedient. 

Taking the cure when it was obtained that way is justfying the methods that spawned it. It sends out the message that two wrongs can make a right, that the only way to conquer evil is by using more evil etc.

And that's no way to live, because it crushes the soul and makes the universe a filthy, miserable place, filled with evil labelled as necessity. It gnawed away at Mordin's assistant, driving him crazy and at Mordin himself, leading to his somber moments of realisation at his guilt.

It's times like this that show that Bioware do get it. They do understand the needs of the Paragon player - I just wished it had been in more evidence in the main story. To a Paragon, Cerberus are not the answer, even if they present a credible solution.

There's always another way. The Devil's hand is stained with blood they do say. Shake his hand, even when you don't mean it and you stain yours as well.

As Mordin looks at the screen, the camera angles through the holo-screen at him, superimposing the data over his face. I.e this has happened because of him; something he now realises.

'I misunderstood the mission parameters' he says quietly.

In other words, they came to Tuchanka to save his assistant, but through the horrors he saw here, Mordin accepts what he did and thus he was the one who was saved.

And as for the resurrection, well I wouldn't be so quick to congratulate Cerberus on that. Sci-Fi lore in films and TV etc often make it appear as though an evil act or a painful sacrifice has performed a miracle. But later it turns out that this was not the case at all (the experiment is shown to have been flawed for exmaple, but still worked - that kind of thing).

I forget exaclty what he says, but Jacob implied that something was amiss with Shepard's resurrection at the start. And I remember distinctly thinking 'What did he mean just then?' And I suspect (if you play as Paragon certainly) that Bioware will show your resurrection was not their doing (instead being something more Divine or Good).

It's just a theory - but consider that this is a very commonly used tactic. I'm not saying they will do this, but don't be surprised if it happens. 

Besides which, we've already covered the resurrection thing. Though we should be giving it time when Bioware don't, is beyond me. Mordin ponders death in his side quest, saying he would like to believe that there is an afterlife, that there's more than just the miserable death the patients suffered.

Shepard is standing right there and there is no option to say anything about her own experience, nor does Mordin ask. A huge opportunity wasted to my mind.

Anyway, enough of this high falutin' 'Praise Jesus!' talk - let's bash TIM a bit more! 

TIM sends you completely unprepared into the Collector ship, in a rerun of Akuze. And Shepard is... a little annoyed. The only response I was allowed to muster was an extremely tame 'That wasn't very nice' whinge. And then it was back to 'Aye aye sir, three bags full'.

Like I said before, I can handle having to work with Cerberus. But why do my reponses have to be so lame to TIM and my former team mates. Tali gives you a talking to about it as well when she comes on board, even when you say to her that you're not with them!

Modifié par ModernDayMoriarty, 02 février 2010 - 11:28 .

[Hukari]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

I'm not blaming the Normandy's crew for being anything other than propaganda stereotypes, deliberately deployed by Bioware to facilitate their retcon of Cerberus. I am not a fan of retcon at the best of times, and this game was a particularly stinging example of it.

And yes, Cerberus may be composed of cells who know nothing of each other - but Shepard doesn't know that. Miranda at least shows that some operatives have heard of what was going on though. You have to complete missions for Cerberus command and turn over materials to them - do you honestly think they don't know what their organisation is like?

And the cells not knowing what the others were doing thing, would last only so long as it took Shepard to tell them about it. But you're not allowed to tell them - when you even remember at all! Shepard appears to just forget the most gruesome events, as she never brings them up, as I discussed earlier.

She even has the option to ask Tali 'Why do you hate Cerberus?' Has she got a 4 second memory or something? (Particularly in my case, since Tali was in my group for the whole of ME1 through the Cerberus missions!) It's as simple as this: Cerberus are utter bastards and Tali's a good person, who doesn't stand for that sort of thing.

You keep trying to flag up the 'means justify the ends' thing. I don't know why, as I've said many times that it is always possible to construct these kinds of arguments. It's just that a Paragon (or just someone of moral principles), will outright reject that idea.

As with the data that can fix the Genophage in Mordin's side quest. He comes to realise that his assistant is right in as much as there should be a cure, but not the way that his assistant went about it.  As Shepard can add, 'This data is tainted'.

And the paragon path in this situation (that actually gains you paragon points) is to destroy it, because whilst the cure is desirable, this isn't the way to obtain it. By your logic, we've condemned the Krogan to lose more lives etc in the meantime. But it's worth it, Mordin and Shepard realises, to let this evil die here, ignored, unused and without even their tacit approval.

Mordin's fury at his assistant (and himself) is that they allowed themselves to be swayed by the 'it has to be this way' Renegade view of things, when making the Genophage and now this cure. 

He realises that the genophage was NOT necessary, the strengthening of the Genophage was NOT necessary, the butchery of these krogans to find the cure was NOT necessary. They were excuses ot justify actions they had already decided to take.

Those are the conclusions Mordin comes to. They used the 'Well, if we don't do morally dubious action X and use questionable ethics device Y, then deadly occurance Z will undoubtably happen. We have to do this - it's the only way...'

But as Mordin admits, it's just conjecture, impossible to prove. The only thing that matters is because of them, people have suffered terribly. Because they didn't look for a better solution, just the one that seemed most expedient. 

Taking the cure when it was obtained that way is justfying the methods that spawned it. It sends out the message that two wrongs can make a right, that the only way to conquer evil is by using more evil etc.

And that's no way to live, because it crushes the soul and makes the universe a filthy, miserable place, filled with evil labelled as necessity. It gnawed away at Mordin's assistant, driving him crazy and at Mordin himself, leading to his somber moments of realisation at his guilt.

It's times like this that show that Bioware do get it. They do understand the needs of the Paragon player - I just wished it had been in more evidence in the main story. To a Paragon, Cerberus are not the answer, even if they present a credible solution.

There's always another way. The Devil's hand is stained with blood they do say. Shake his hand, even when you don't mean it and you stain yours as well.

As Mordin looks at the screen, the camera angles through the holo-screen at him, superimposing the data over his face. I.e this has happened because of him; something he now realises.

'I misunderstood the mission parameters' he says quietly.

In other words, they came to Tuchanka to save his assistant, but through the horrors he saw here, Mordin accepts what he did and thus he was the one who was saved.

And as for the resurrection, well I wouldn't be so quick to congratulate Cerberus on that. Sci-Fi lore in films and TV etc often make it appear as though an evil act or a painful sacrifice has performed a miracle. But later it turns out that this was not the case at all (the experiment is shown to have been flawed for exmaple, but still worked - that kind of thing).

I forget exaclty what he says, but Jacob implied that something was amiss with Shepard's resurrection at the start. And I remember distinctly thinking 'What did he mean just then?' And I suspect (if you play as Paragon certainly) that Bioware will show your resurrection was not their doing (instead being something more Divine or Good).

It's just a theory - but consider that this is a very commonly used tactic. I'm not saying they will do this, but don't be surprised if it happens. 

Besides which, we've already covered the resurrection thing. Though we should be giving it time when Bioware don't, is beyond me. Mordin ponders death in his side quest, saying he would like to believe that there is an afterlife, that there's more than just the miserable death the patients suffered.

Shepard is standing right there and there is no option to say anything about her own experience, nor does Mordin ask. A huge opportunity wasted to my mind.

Anyway, enough of this high falutin' 'Praise Jesus!' talk - let's bash TIM a bit more! 

TIM sends you completely unprepared into the Collector ship, in a rerun of Akuze. And Shepard is... a little annoyed. The only response I was allowed to muster was an extremely tame 'That wasn't very nice' whinge. And then it was back to 'Aye aye sir, three bags full'.

Like I said before, I can handle having to work with Cerberus. But why do my reponses have to be so lame to TIM and my former team mates. Tali gives you a talking to about it as well when she comes on board, even when you say to her that you're not with them!

All excellent points, Mr. Moriarty. However, I feel the need to make a few counterpoints, to try and enlighten certain aspects of your position.

Firstly, Shepard -does- know about Cerberus having separate divisions and cells. One of Miranda's first conversations involves her telling you that directly. Not to mention learning about Cerberus after EDI being freed of her shackles.

Secondly, the question "Why do you hate Cerberus?" to Tali actually is in regards to the Quarian's -specific- hatred of Cerberus. Because, as far as SHepard knew, Cerberus was an Alliance black-ops organization that went rogue a few months ago, that it took even an Alliance Admiral to be forced to go to the Shadow Broker to get information on it.

And, thirdly. I am a paragon player, the idea of using 'the ends justify the means' to commit anything is distasteful to me, philosophically. I am not advocating such a position. I am simply saying that the Council and the Alliance are both unwilling and unable to help you. If you saved the Council, then the Alliance lost a good portion of it's fleet, and is suffering hiring quota issues. The Council is still repairing from Sovereign's attack. Not to mention my abovementioned unwillingness to do anything, when it's easier and politically expedient to brand Shepard a loon (as they have done), and reject Shepard's 'Reaper' idea.

[RiouHotaru]

Hukari wrote...

All excellent points, Mr. Moriarty. However, I feel the need to make a few counterpoints, to try and enlighten certain aspects of your position.

Firstly, Shepard -does- know about Cerberus having separate divisions and cells. One of Miranda's first conversations involves her telling you that directly. Not to mention learning about Cerberus after EDI being freed of her shackles.

Secondly, the question "Why do you hate Cerberus?" to Tali actually is in regards to the Quarian's -specific- hatred of Cerberus. Because, as far as SHepard knew, Cerberus was an Alliance black-ops organization that went rogue a few months ago, that it took even an Alliance Admiral to be forced to go to the Shadow Broker to get information on it.

And, thirdly. I am a paragon player, the idea of using 'the ends justify the means' to commit anything is distasteful to me, philosophically. I am not advocating such a position. I am simply saying that the Council and the Alliance are both unwilling and unable to help you. If you saved the Council, then the Alliance lost a good portion of it's fleet, and is suffering hiring quota issues. The Council is still repairing from Sovereign's attack. Not to mention my abovementioned unwillingness to do anything, when it's easier and politically expedient to brand Shepard a loon (as they have done), and reject Shepard's 'Reaper' idea.

Indeed, Shepard working for Cerberus can be (partially) justified as a "means to an end."  I believe that working for them, and using their resources to save the human colonies can be summed up in this particular wise saying:

"Evil used in the name of Good, is not necessarily Evil."

For Shepard, Cerberus is that means to accomplish the "ends" that he/she desires.  Sure, my Shepard was extremely uneasy working for Cerberus, but when it became perfectly clear that the Alliance couldn't help, and the Council was refusing to help, that action had to be taken in order to save those colonies from further abductions.

As for the Council, remember what Kaiden said back in ME1 (or was it Shepard?) "They want to believe that everything is alright."  It would be, as Udina so eloquently put it, a political s***-storm if the public was aware of a massive army of killer AIs that would make the geth look like space hamsters in comparison.  Not to mention that all your physical proof continues to wind up being degraded or blown up.  I do believe that with the data you got at the end of ME2, the Council cannot ignore the threat.

And you're right, TIM is a giant jerkwad.  But as long as he's providing the resources and info, you need his help.  It's why Shepard waited till the end to give TIM the finger, at that point, you no longer needed him or his network to succeed in your mission, as your mission was complete.  So you told him to bugger off.

[eldanori]

You know, even my rampantly anti-alien, pro-human Renegade Shepard (who actually managed to get about 1/3rd the way up the Paragon side along with full Renegade by being helpful, polite and charming to humans) disliked Cerberus and their actions in ME1.



ME2 is nothing but a Cerberus recruiting video until the last few missions, and the fact that TIM doesn't have to spend more time convincing either Shepard to do the mission he wants really grates.



It's simply sloppy writing. Changing Cerberus from evil terrorist idiots into a renegade group with noble intentions is complete white-wash.

[ModernDayMoriarty]

Hey there.

Again, I'm sorry, but all this talk of 'Shepard might have a reason to follow Cerberus in X case or might be willing to overlook atrocity Y for the greater good etc)  is completely besides the point.

I have stated over and over and over again that I don't dispute you can make a case (as the game is written anyway), to support the fact that Shepard must go along with Cerberus etc.

But to do that, you must accept the 'Means to an end', 'it has to be done' view. And that is not the Paragon view, especially when I haven't had any chance to explore alternatives. And as I've made clear, I have very little respect for the credibility and writing standard of the game as regards its treament of the Alliance/Council etc. 

The Council aren't resisting because of needs for recruitment etc - they flat out don't believe you suudenly about the Reapers, despite the fact they did in the Paragon ending. And you think their fleets and numbers will still be that depleted after 2 entire years?!

By now the Alliance should have BETTER ships than the Normandy. It proved its worth, but 2 years is a long time in tech circles. They should have several Normandys, maybe even some heavier ships with one. The one thing that isn't likely at all, is that only Cerberus have any ships with a stealth system!

They're using 2 year old co-opted designs! The Alliance and Citadel still has the researchers who made the original. What have they been doing with their time - press ups in the science academy mess hall? The Paragon ending brings the races closer together.

Ergo, they should have been an explostion of new co-operative ventures across all fronts, scientific, cultural, military etc.

I'm not telling you how to play your Paragon. I'm just saying that my Paragon doesn't believe that a organisation that condones and uses the methods Cerberus do (and they still do, as TIM's reports after each mission often discuss possible issues of criminal agencies and devices etc), can ever be the solution.

I simply don't accept Bioware's 'The Council is just stupid and wouldn't help you in a fit' way of writing the story. .

You have to understand that I just wish they had written the Paragon version of events as something more than an afterthought. It's absolutely insulting that Shepard continually defaults to being a fully paid up member of them in casual conversations.

Miranda and Jacob argue over whether to turn Legion over to their tech division or space it. Shepard is not allowed to say 'Whatever we decide, I'm not letting Cerberus have it!'

Jack wants you to go and destroy the Cerberus facility where she was tortured. This is the one and only time that I could get on board with her - but wasn't allowed to! The conversation sees Shepard's dialogue options filled with 'Cerberus are different now', 'Are you sure it was Cerberus?' etc etc.

And tone and stance have an incredulity about it that suggests she is having a hard time believing this. I know Jack is hardly the most reliable source, but I would like to think that there would be at least one option for a Paragon (with full paragon bar) to sympathise and be appalled at this.

And there is the constant, constant barrage of people saying I am with Cerberus and should be careful. Even Legion takes a pop for crying out loud! He quotes Sovereign, saying 'By using our (in this case Cerberus') technology, events advance along the paths we desire'.

I KNOW THAT!!! I - AM - NOT - WITH - THEM!!!!

Would it really have been so hard to show a little less disdain for the needs of people who were not fine with working for Cerberus?!

Find a Reaper ship in the Traverse - where Alliance and Spectres CAN operate. Can you tell Anderson or the Council, Alliance etc? 

No, you have to go there as part of Cerberus. This despite just being betrayed by TIM in an indentical situation and given the fact that I renewed my Spectre status. And as usual, I am given no opportunity to forward any of what I find to the Council or Anderson.

Given that their chief objection is that they don't believe in the Reapers. I know where one is, and I'm not allowed to tell them...

It's official - I have no hair left, just bloodied clumps in my fists.

Mission after mission after mission gives metaphors for what they hope is happening to my character. Indoctrination on the Reaper ship, a darkness eating away at the star when you recruit Tali, the Protheans and later humans turned from enemies into servants of darkness.

But that is not how my character was thinking at all! I was not becoming accustomed to Cerberus - I was just going stark staring crazy at not being allowed to make any kind of statements about them - Shepard can lay into just about everyone else about anything, but on Cerberus...

It's 'Maybe they can't be trusted', when I'm even given the chance to say that.

The fact is that TIM knows all about those cells that tortured and experimented on people and he was fine with it. They did it to humans, not aliens - humans. That's how much they care about humanity.

And if he doesn't, then he's a man who has lost control of his own organisation - again, a very bad thing for such a powerful organisation.

Together with the ludicrous suggestion that the Council won't use agents outside of its own space... Does that make any sense at all?!

If your space is bordered by anarchic and dangerous systems, you need to know what is going on in there. Or how will you ever hope to know when there is a threat? All countries maintain organisations to keep tabs on external threats.

It's particularly easy in places like The Terminus Systems, because it doesn't belong to just one race. Human colonies do exist there. So it would be a simple matter to seed operatives throughout the systems, build up contacts etc, all to keep an eye on things.

I'd also expect at least 1 Spectre to be assigned there at any one time, just making absolutely sure.

To say that the Council would only use its agents in its own space is just prepostrous. That would be inviting border raids, smuggling etc for which they would have no means of tracking. Does anyone think that is even remotely likely? That they would have no equivalent of the CIA or MI6 etc?

How are their covert operatives like Spectres supposed to report threats to Citadel Space from external sources, if they aren't given the mandate to go into those places and find out?!

Why don't people just mass fleets and strike in and out with impunity, if the Citadel has no kind of intelligence networks in foreign systems? It's nonsense.

And they can't be sure Sovereign is a Reaper? Again, a complete disregard for the Paragon ending of ME1. They were absolutely convinced and freely discussed what they were going to do about it - strike back! And again, this is after Shepard had left, so they weren't just saying that.

The game is just written for the Renegade and it annoys me (you may have noticed ).As someone pointed out earlier (I forget your name, but I thank you, nonetheless), the new game that isn't imported from ME, shows a Renegade Shepard. Council dead, Wrex dead, Udina in charge of human council etc.

That's one of the reasons why the Citadel is so small and sparse in this game. The game assumes Renegade and the Citadel is distinctly darker and dirtier this time round. It shows far more squalid conditions in the wards and this is because in the writer's eyes, Humanity forms the Council and the Citadel is no longer the Utopia of cultures interacting peacefully that it was.

Because the Citadel of the Human Renegade path and that of the Paragon, Multi-Species Council would be so different, they basically just cut the Citadel out of the game entirely. C-Sec now abuse prisoners (and Harass innocent Quarians!), security is tighter than ever with humans in C-Sec and the whole place seems far more threatening and squalid than before.

And again, there's the whole Cerberus is filled with quirky BuffyTVS style characters and the Alliance and Council is just 'The Brass, The Man etc etc.'

Authority of all kinds is continually rejected and made out to be the enemy in the story. During Tali's trial, I wholeheartedly agreed with the Admiral who was against Tali over his stance on the Geth (I had been clear in ME that I thought the Quarians were in error when they attacked the Geth and forced them to defend themselves etc etc).

I didn't like that he was making an example out of Tali to do it (and told him so). My final words to them were 'Don't go to War' and the Admiral agreed with me...

And my Shepard slammed her palms on the rail in disgust! What the hell?!

It was especially stupid, seeing as how you are then able to immediatly talk to him and have a completely friendly and warm conversation about how you agree completely with each other on this issue!

But in the dramatic story scene, seconds earlier - I acted like I thought he was a jerkbag politician...

It's just sheer neglect for people playing the non-Renegade path, time after time after time. And it wears on you; it really, really does.

Knowing that even in the most outrageous circumstances, the best Shepard will manage is 'You could have told me sooner' or something equally inappropriate. It's a joke, it really is.

It's just a constant barrage. The fact that so many side missions and basically every NPC assumes you have no qualms about being Cerberus is a point that is drilled and jack-hammered home again and again.

Even when I can say 'I'm not really with them... sort of.. maybe...' it often means I can't approach the conversation from any other angle and miss the other opportunities, because I exasperatedly trying to wring a non-Cerberus party line out of my character.

Every time I go to the CIC and see the Cerberus markings, I sigh miserably. I see the insignia on my clothes and want to just crawl into a hole somewhere.

I know this all sounds extreme, but it threatens to completely ruin the game for me at regular intervals. The game simply is written for the Renegade path. Sure the individual scenarios and party member missions, you can play how you want to.

But as soon as get back on the main story or the N7 missions, BAM! It's 'You're Cerberus?! How could it do it!!!' time again.

Modifié par ModernDayMoriarty, 03 février 2010 - 05:54 .

[Novadove]

ME1 has more freedom, believable and exciting. playing ME 2 feels stagnant in story, not much choice in action, speech and thinking.



i hate the transition thing in quest. in ME1, u enter from the entrance, all the way to the boss in 1 continuous journey. but ME2 simply teleports u to the "map" that is required for the quest. the world seems smaller.



able to play ME again is a great feeling. but i feel on the whole, my intelligence is being greatly insulted. what's the point of creating dialogue for paragon and renegade if there ARE only 2 play styles and everything is the same. Furthermore, the only difference about both style is only about talking and punching the npc to proceed with the story? might as well put linear paragon path on 1 dvd and renegade path on 2nd dvd. =(



It would be more belivable if illusive man, head CEO of cerberus spent his entire organisation's fund and resources in order to revive shepard and goes from there.

To create irony and dilemma is good but not this way.

[Arijharn]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Having read the OP and the back and forth arguments, allow me to put forth the following ideas for consideration:

- Post-game, EDI, now without any of the former blocks, tells you that Cerberus consists of only 150 agents operating over about a dozen or so cells, none of which communicate with one another, except through TIM.  Therefore, the left hand and right hand never meet, with only the head talking to each head.  Therefore, while ME1's Cerberus sect is decsively evil, they are operating entirely on their own, with little supervision.  Even Miranda goes so far as to say that branch went way over the line.  Heck, the only reason the Normandy SR-1 even exists was due to Cerberus.

- Shepard owes Cerberus his/her life.  Also, TIM is aware of a threat that the Alliance and Council refuse to do anything about or address directly.  The Alliance even suspects Cerberus is the one kidnapping the colonists (one of the most god-awful theories out there really)  Now, before anyone yells about the Council being idiots, remember the politics involved.  The Council fleet, as well as the Alliance fleet, was demolished by Sovereign.  Even IF the Council believed you, they, nor the Alliance, have the resources to assist you.  The Council doesn't want to believe you or condone your theory, because in their mind, on the off-chance Shepard is wrong, they all look bad in the eyes of all the Council races for playing along in humanity's "game".  Not the best view, but a practical and utilitarian one.

- As TIM is willing to not only bring Shepard back, but provide him with a ship, crew, and the resources in good faith, Shepard likely (while incredibly skeptical) sees no harm in playing along.  Remember, TIM says repeatedly that Shepard is free to act as he/she sees fit, so long as he can find the answer to the Collectors and deal with them.  Shepard has no reason to look this gift-horse in the mouth.  It's reasonable to take TIM's offer with a grain of salt, but to outright distrust him makes no sense.

- In general, your allies are following YOU, not Cerberus.  Even Jacob and Miranda by the end of the game realize that TIM is looking out for purely human interests, rather than looking at the big picture.  Most of the crew are here because they want to be with YOU.  Not work for TIM, not participate in Cerberus's stupid experiments, but because they want to follow YOU.

- As for your allies specifically, TIM states that most of your old team is now gone, though why he lied about Liara (it's obvious in Redemption what she's up to) is anyone's guess.  The new team has to be made of fresh blood, strong, talented folks.  And this unfortunately means you'll run into folks who are imbalanced or otherwise unhinged.  For example, no one can deny that Samara or Jack aren't ridiculously powerful biotics, easily better than anything Kaiden or Miranda are capable of.

- Finally, while Cerberus is not good, neither is the Alliance or the Council.  Despite the good you're doing, the Council is tempted to charge you with treason for no other reason than your affiliation with Cerberus, and Kaiden/Ashley are a bit quick to go from "I missed you where have you been?!" to "YOU'RE A HORRIBLE DIRTY TRAITOR!" as soon as the word Cerberus comes up, and if they are your LI...their half-assed apology letter does little to minimize the sting.  I'm surprised you're so angry with Cerberus and not with the Alliance.  People should know of your Shepard's moral stance and quality of character.  If you've joined forces with Cerberus, regardless of how evil they may seem, there has to be a DAMN good reason why...Unfortunately, no one gives you the chance to tell your side, accusing you of treason and threatening violence.

In short, Cerberus is offering the only potential means of dealing with a problem.  Just because you're working with them doesn't mean you have to like them.

I totally agree with you. Being a (full) paragon (or renegade) obviously means different things to different people, so arguing is purely academic and isn't going to sway anyone else one way or the other.

I like being a paragon because in the game I like trying to help everyone I can, but I believe that hard choices must be made and unfortunately someone has to pay the cost. I thought Cerberus' actions in the first game (while vile in some cases) were at least understandable and I support their objective. I'm somewhat reminded of the scene where you wake Grunt up and he bodily rams you into the wall, you look as if you've been beaten and are trying reason and are diplomatic, but you're also ready with a heavy pistol pointed at his guts.

So yes, I agree with their aim of making supersoldiers... not totally sure or convinced about their methods of producing them though.