I like seeing paragons squirm in ME2.
After being forced to be either a Paladin or a violent, mindless, racist thug in ME1, ME2 is a breath of fresh air.
Disgruntled Cerberus Employee wanted out! (Warning - extremely long post).
Débuté par
ModernDayMoriarty
, févr. 01 2010 02:27
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#252
Posté 03 février 2010 - 07:37
OasisForever1991
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ModerDayMoriarty I think the one thought in a way justifies these feelings.
I do understand that ME1 and ME2 are just games but in terms with me it's different. When I would play Mass 1 although it was just a game It was the feeling it gave me not just the "it's a game, Bioware set the story this way and I have to live with it. I know it sucks because in certain scenes or what have you, the logical thing doesn't exist" thing. I do understand your point on the big C and the actions you COULD have taken because that would be THE thing to do. But in terms of a more high minded out look on Mass 2 and more importantly both, Mass 1 and 2, I came up with this....
In Mass Effect 2 it does feel that "this is way it is going to be!! No IF's AND'S or BUTT's about it" But in terms of maybe sanity or boredum or even a casual playthrough Mass Effect 2 in my opinion or even review was "pushy". I do infact wish that Drew K. would have wrote everything deeling with ME2 and not Mac Walters. And this is where I bring my reply:
I look at Mass Effect 1 and 2 more as books than video games becasue of the feeling it brings to me. In Mass Effect 1 the reason I liked it and the only 360 game I own is because when I popped it in and I found myself running around in Mass Effect's universe it gave me it's own feeling.
I found myself walking around the Citadel for the first time talking to NCP's and hearing the music fit perfectly and just kinda walking around writing my own Mass Effect novel in my head of what a certain feeling this universe gives me. when I would run around the Citadel I felt like this was the center all galactic life and what that ment to me was...I became a Spectre and in Mass Effect 1 I really did feel what a Spectre was. The feeling of freedom, and being a Paragon in Mass 1 and then playing Mass 2 I felt like more of a Paragon in ME1.
And in Mass 2 I just felt like I wanted to get to that next Left Trigger and get more points. There is no line between P/R in Mass 2 I felt. It all felt the same really, just how you handled it in a scene was "sorta' different.
I gues what I'm trying to say by "the feeling" is that I treat Mass Effect games as the Novels by Drew and all science fiction books (good high minded science fiction books) Like Rama or Nightfall or Foundation or the Robot series. And when I would be in the old Normandy elevator. It gave me the feeling of what space is. I felt lonely and space was really really big.
And that's what it's all about really. Not "WHAT HAPPEND TO THE RPG IN THIS GAME. I GOT JIPPED" no...Bioware did this for a reason and if I had to put my main theory on it...Bioware gave us more than a "RPG with shooter elements with good story and combat video game". They gave us a whole outlook and universe and just a DREAM kinda. When I play ME2 now I don't really feel like this is WHAT HAS TO BE DONE . Like having to be in the big C. I just look at it as a emotion or feeling the writers put it into this. Or what they feel.
Mass Effect is more than a video game. It's about YOU. And what you dream of or what close feeling you get when hearing a certain song and thinking of what it could REALLY be like to actually be in Shepards shoes on Feros helping Zu's Hope and taking the Geth out of the lower tunnels or running around Noveria and have it feel like I could be there or even be talking to TIM and just having the feeling of"If I could make a wish right now, I would jump through that TV screen in Shepards shoes and do the right thing".
And how Mass Effect 2 is a great game and a 10/10 in my book is that my feeling didn't go away. Not becasue of little tweeks like no mako or scanning or no armor or something. I still felt like I was Shepard saving the galaxy. But YES I do understand your post and if I have to be honest I didn't really feel that much into Mass Effect either as I did on Mass 1 but....
I can't wait to walk over to my TV and turn it on.
Thought's please, I kinda just ran with it.
I do understand that ME1 and ME2 are just games but in terms with me it's different. When I would play Mass 1 although it was just a game It was the feeling it gave me not just the "it's a game, Bioware set the story this way and I have to live with it. I know it sucks because in certain scenes or what have you, the logical thing doesn't exist" thing. I do understand your point on the big C and the actions you COULD have taken because that would be THE thing to do. But in terms of a more high minded out look on Mass 2 and more importantly both, Mass 1 and 2, I came up with this....
In Mass Effect 2 it does feel that "this is way it is going to be!! No IF's AND'S or BUTT's about it" But in terms of maybe sanity or boredum or even a casual playthrough Mass Effect 2 in my opinion or even review was "pushy". I do infact wish that Drew K. would have wrote everything deeling with ME2 and not Mac Walters. And this is where I bring my reply:
I look at Mass Effect 1 and 2 more as books than video games becasue of the feeling it brings to me. In Mass Effect 1 the reason I liked it and the only 360 game I own is because when I popped it in and I found myself running around in Mass Effect's universe it gave me it's own feeling.
I found myself walking around the Citadel for the first time talking to NCP's and hearing the music fit perfectly and just kinda walking around writing my own Mass Effect novel in my head of what a certain feeling this universe gives me. when I would run around the Citadel I felt like this was the center all galactic life and what that ment to me was...I became a Spectre and in Mass Effect 1 I really did feel what a Spectre was. The feeling of freedom, and being a Paragon in Mass 1 and then playing Mass 2 I felt like more of a Paragon in ME1.
And in Mass 2 I just felt like I wanted to get to that next Left Trigger and get more points. There is no line between P/R in Mass 2 I felt. It all felt the same really, just how you handled it in a scene was "sorta' different.
I gues what I'm trying to say by "the feeling" is that I treat Mass Effect games as the Novels by Drew and all science fiction books (good high minded science fiction books) Like Rama or Nightfall or Foundation or the Robot series. And when I would be in the old Normandy elevator. It gave me the feeling of what space is. I felt lonely and space was really really big.
And that's what it's all about really. Not "WHAT HAPPEND TO THE RPG IN THIS GAME. I GOT JIPPED" no...Bioware did this for a reason and if I had to put my main theory on it...Bioware gave us more than a "RPG with shooter elements with good story and combat video game". They gave us a whole outlook and universe and just a DREAM kinda. When I play ME2 now I don't really feel like this is WHAT HAS TO BE DONE . Like having to be in the big C. I just look at it as a emotion or feeling the writers put it into this. Or what they feel.
Mass Effect is more than a video game. It's about YOU. And what you dream of or what close feeling you get when hearing a certain song and thinking of what it could REALLY be like to actually be in Shepards shoes on Feros helping Zu's Hope and taking the Geth out of the lower tunnels or running around Noveria and have it feel like I could be there or even be talking to TIM and just having the feeling of"If I could make a wish right now, I would jump through that TV screen in Shepards shoes and do the right thing".
And how Mass Effect 2 is a great game and a 10/10 in my book is that my feeling didn't go away. Not becasue of little tweeks like no mako or scanning or no armor or something. I still felt like I was Shepard saving the galaxy. But YES I do understand your post and if I have to be honest I didn't really feel that much into Mass Effect either as I did on Mass 1 but....
I can't wait to walk over to my TV and turn it on.
Thought's please, I kinda just ran with it.
#253
Posté 03 février 2010 - 07:55
DaeJi
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My Paragon Shepard hates Cerberus to her very core, but she knew that without their help she would not able to save countless lives. And she is a woman willing to give up a part of herself to save people.
Of course, she did also enjoy turning Miranda and Jacob against the Illusive Man, taking the ship he spent billions making along with her crew and leaving him and Cerberus high and dry. She enjoyed that a lot.
Of course, she did also enjoy turning Miranda and Jacob against the Illusive Man, taking the ship he spent billions making along with her crew and leaving him and Cerberus high and dry. She enjoyed that a lot.
#254
Posté 03 février 2010 - 11:13
Adon 9
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Hukari wrote...
In essence, to me, a Paragon is a peacemaker. He compromises, and tries to make an equitable deal for all parties. If there were the option to take command of Cerberus, and change it into a force for good, my Shepard would do that. Because it's the right thing to do, and the right way to go about it, as the only unifying thing between Cerberus's science divisions and it's military divisions... is that they all report back to TIM.)
I like the cut of your jib, sir or madam.
I am also of the opinion that while the Council is not as completely justified in branding Shepard a loon as some are making out, it IS understandable because it's much easier to do that than face the notion that it really WAS a Reaper that nearly destroyed them and the horrible implication that there are more of them out there. Basically, they don't believe it's a Reaper because they don't want to believe it, as Anderson points out, and this has tainted their review of the situation and evidence in a big way.
I also agree that it is fully possible to play a true Paragon in ME2. Being ethical and moral does not have to equate to being obstinate. Working with Cerberus is something you do not because you want to, and if you had the luxury of time, you could look for a different solution. That luxury just isn't there in ME2.
I think that Cerberus is not a monolithic entity. Most of the Normandy's crew appears to be made up of moderates, who have joined up less because of a human supremacist outlook than frustration that the colonies have been left to fend for themselves. Kelly is a pretty good example of the mindset -- pro-human without being anti-alien. That's not to suggest that the ultimate goal of Cerberus isn't bad news, just that much of the rank and file of the Normandy aren't necessarily extremist. I wouldn't be shocked if this wasn't deliberate on the part of TIM. If the Normandy was crewed by more hardcore Cerberus people, Shepard would be much less likely to cooperate. He IS a manipulator, after all, so making sure that the crew were mostly moderates would help put Shepard at his/her ease in working with them. It's a decision that will bite him in the behind with a Paragon Shepard, but that's the gambit he took when he decided to make sure that Shep was unaltered mentally.
#255
Posté 03 février 2010 - 11:22
ModernDayMoriarty
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But the game is so nauseauatingly insistant that Cerberus is okay. Even in the final scene, I didn't get to tell the Illusive Man to sod off. I don't know if I did something wrong - I took every opportunity (such as they were) to disobey him and take him to task.
I joined the Spectres again (which was never mentioned after that conversation), forwarded Cerberus intel to the Alliance, took no side missions directly issued by Cerberus... and all I got to say to him was 'We do things my way - you can either shaoe up or move out of the way'.
He complained that I was making a mistake, but it still didn't sound like I had left Cerberus. I was furious!
And after I played Jack's side mission (I didn't the first time, but reloaded and did it)... I mean, what the hell?!
You get TIM's voice over the com, saying that all the other kids but Jack are expendable, along with the fact that even if it did go rogue, the fact that so many of these cells go that way, shows they are far too dangerous to have around.
But what exactly were they up to at that biotic school? It can't all have been purely above board, considering TIM makes the 'expendable' statement. But that info is never commented on by Shepard!
After the mission, I was utterly disgusted with Cerberus. And what did Shepard do about it?
Nothing at all. Business as usual.
There was the fight between Miranda and Jack, where Shepard came in, took Jack;s side and.... said that Miranda was acting unprofessionally?!
That's it?!!!! After all you saw, that's the only thing you have to say?! And if you use the Paragon persuade, she just tells both of them that the mission is too important for them to be fighting and they leave it at that!
Not to mention that you can support Jack, then go to Miranda and use the Paragon persuade to say that you were just acting with Jack - that you only said it to keep her on side?
I mean.... I don't even know what to say.
And then the ultimate insult - an e-mail from TIM saying he knew nothing about it, none of the kids were harmed and he even fired the people responsible.
Oh, well why didn't you say so? I have no problem believing that story. It doesn't sound like a pack of lies at all...
The man who can find Collector Ships, actual Reapers(!) and bring people back from the dead etc. Yet when anything goes wrong (and despite him personally overseeing every project), he suddenly knows nothing.
You know, I have a feeling that what he said... well, it may not be entirely true...
We're talking about kids tortured and raised to fight each other, when they weren't being kept in dank cells like animals...
And I'm allowed to say absolutely nothing about it! Who decided that this is how it should be? Who decided that at the end of the game, you don't get to report to the Alliance or make ammends with the people who've been lambasting you about Cerberus...
Why does the game insist on assuming I'm perfectly content to either stay in Cerberus as the boss, or go solo or something? When did I ever choose that?!
Legion puts it best, summing up this game in one brilliant sentence:
'They judge that forcing an unwanted connection on us, is preferable to a continued schism'.
He's talking about the Geth heretics etc, but that's a perfect way to encapsulate this game. Because of the myriad paths, people could be taking, they chose one and pressed it into accepting it.
Yes, in my heart, I know my Shepard would never follow Cerberus or their ideals, no matter how much Bioware love TIM and apologise and retcon for Ceberus, so you can be your free-wheeling band of Big Damn (anti) Hero space desperados etc.
But when the game continually refuses to let me be anything but a more or less willing member of Cerberus, when all the significant NPCs treat me and continue to refer to me as a Cerberus member... it just feels so utterly pointless even playing.
You simply cannot ever tell Cerberus what swines they are to their faces and expose their misdeeds and lies of omission etc. You just get it constantly hammered home that they are the ones who are helping, resurrected you etc.
And every time they hit with the 'Magic Plot Stick of Cerberus Know and can Do Anything', I felt more and more angry.
Seriously, this game was not written well. Other aspects of the game were good, but the believability and just the lack of interest in the main plot story, was unforgiveable. The collectors are such a bland, seen it all before enemy.
And the Harbinger was just ridiculous with his 'Shepard... I... am the EPIC WIN - Bwa ha ha ha ha!''
(I'm just to put up a few thoughts on the story here, as I think we've thrashed the topic to a reasonable conclusion, so here's as good a place as any to say what I thought of it).
But it's the fact that the game is essentially one huge recruiting drive, with some extremely dodgy Collector levels tacked on, is just sad. The loyalty missions are okay, but it does flag up the fact that the team members get far more focus than Shepard herself!
Shepard gets the 'I died, but got better' story, which lasts about 2 seconds, then she does little of significance in the rest of the game, beyond being the standard 'Action Commander'.
Her finest moment is saving Joker and that's right at the start! In fact, Joker steals the show utterly with his (unfortunately very short) level near the end. ANd he even gets to mow people down with an assault rifle in the end sequence!
Shepard gets nothing to rival her intimate connection to the Protheans and to Saren, with the visions she received and Cipher that she shared with him in ME 1. She gets no action sequences as good as the duel with Saren at Virmire.
That fight alone is better than anything in ME2 (with the possible exception of the flight in towards the Collector base - although the Collector ship quickly succumbs to 'It was hard, but now it just dies in seconds' syndrome.
The story of ME 1 is just so much tighter and better written, with a proper enemy and decent resolution. ME2 is considerably more trashy (as in fun, but quite lightweight). The giant human reaper thing at the end...
Oh dear, oh dear...
The game sacrificed ME 1's stately grandeur, mixed with horror and awe at the universe stretching out before you, for a more earthy, 'action blockbuster' feel. Sometimes it worked, much of the time, it felt a bit lightweight compared to the controlled and sober handling of ME1.
I think it has many improvements too (far smoother running, much better graphics (although I don't care for the style in which they are presented at times), no damned MAKO anymore. And whilst the team still isn't great, it keeps most of the people I liked from ME1 and has a couple of good new 'uns (most notably Mordin).
I still used Tali and Garrus as soon as I had them both, though.
Ultimately, it wasn't bad I guess, but Cerberus being Bioware's darlings just pushed it over the edge for me. I certainly didn't like it as much as ME1, but that doesn't mean I hated it by any stretch.
But in ME 3, I'd like to see more RPG elements, and a much fairer deal between the alignments.
Thanks all - you've put with me very patiently. Enjoyed talking with you all.
I joined the Spectres again (which was never mentioned after that conversation), forwarded Cerberus intel to the Alliance, took no side missions directly issued by Cerberus... and all I got to say to him was 'We do things my way - you can either shaoe up or move out of the way'.
He complained that I was making a mistake, but it still didn't sound like I had left Cerberus. I was furious!
And after I played Jack's side mission (I didn't the first time, but reloaded and did it)... I mean, what the hell?!
You get TIM's voice over the com, saying that all the other kids but Jack are expendable, along with the fact that even if it did go rogue, the fact that so many of these cells go that way, shows they are far too dangerous to have around.
But what exactly were they up to at that biotic school? It can't all have been purely above board, considering TIM makes the 'expendable' statement. But that info is never commented on by Shepard!
After the mission, I was utterly disgusted with Cerberus. And what did Shepard do about it?
Nothing at all. Business as usual.
There was the fight between Miranda and Jack, where Shepard came in, took Jack;s side and.... said that Miranda was acting unprofessionally?!
That's it?!!!! After all you saw, that's the only thing you have to say?! And if you use the Paragon persuade, she just tells both of them that the mission is too important for them to be fighting and they leave it at that!
Not to mention that you can support Jack, then go to Miranda and use the Paragon persuade to say that you were just acting with Jack - that you only said it to keep her on side?
I mean.... I don't even know what to say.
And then the ultimate insult - an e-mail from TIM saying he knew nothing about it, none of the kids were harmed and he even fired the people responsible.
Oh, well why didn't you say so? I have no problem believing that story. It doesn't sound like a pack of lies at all...
The man who can find Collector Ships, actual Reapers(!) and bring people back from the dead etc. Yet when anything goes wrong (and despite him personally overseeing every project), he suddenly knows nothing.
You know, I have a feeling that what he said... well, it may not be entirely true...
We're talking about kids tortured and raised to fight each other, when they weren't being kept in dank cells like animals...
And I'm allowed to say absolutely nothing about it! Who decided that this is how it should be? Who decided that at the end of the game, you don't get to report to the Alliance or make ammends with the people who've been lambasting you about Cerberus...
Why does the game insist on assuming I'm perfectly content to either stay in Cerberus as the boss, or go solo or something? When did I ever choose that?!
Legion puts it best, summing up this game in one brilliant sentence:
'They judge that forcing an unwanted connection on us, is preferable to a continued schism'.
He's talking about the Geth heretics etc, but that's a perfect way to encapsulate this game. Because of the myriad paths, people could be taking, they chose one and pressed it into accepting it.
Yes, in my heart, I know my Shepard would never follow Cerberus or their ideals, no matter how much Bioware love TIM and apologise and retcon for Ceberus, so you can be your free-wheeling band of Big Damn (anti) Hero space desperados etc.
But when the game continually refuses to let me be anything but a more or less willing member of Cerberus, when all the significant NPCs treat me and continue to refer to me as a Cerberus member... it just feels so utterly pointless even playing.
You simply cannot ever tell Cerberus what swines they are to their faces and expose their misdeeds and lies of omission etc. You just get it constantly hammered home that they are the ones who are helping, resurrected you etc.
And every time they hit with the 'Magic Plot Stick of Cerberus Know and can Do Anything', I felt more and more angry.
Seriously, this game was not written well. Other aspects of the game were good, but the believability and just the lack of interest in the main plot story, was unforgiveable. The collectors are such a bland, seen it all before enemy.
And the Harbinger was just ridiculous with his 'Shepard... I... am the EPIC WIN - Bwa ha ha ha ha!''
(I'm just to put up a few thoughts on the story here, as I think we've thrashed the topic to a reasonable conclusion, so here's as good a place as any to say what I thought of it).
But it's the fact that the game is essentially one huge recruiting drive, with some extremely dodgy Collector levels tacked on, is just sad. The loyalty missions are okay, but it does flag up the fact that the team members get far more focus than Shepard herself!
Shepard gets the 'I died, but got better' story, which lasts about 2 seconds, then she does little of significance in the rest of the game, beyond being the standard 'Action Commander'.
Her finest moment is saving Joker and that's right at the start! In fact, Joker steals the show utterly with his (unfortunately very short) level near the end. ANd he even gets to mow people down with an assault rifle in the end sequence!
Shepard gets nothing to rival her intimate connection to the Protheans and to Saren, with the visions she received and Cipher that she shared with him in ME 1. She gets no action sequences as good as the duel with Saren at Virmire.
That fight alone is better than anything in ME2 (with the possible exception of the flight in towards the Collector base - although the Collector ship quickly succumbs to 'It was hard, but now it just dies in seconds' syndrome.
The story of ME 1 is just so much tighter and better written, with a proper enemy and decent resolution. ME2 is considerably more trashy (as in fun, but quite lightweight). The giant human reaper thing at the end...
Oh dear, oh dear...
The game sacrificed ME 1's stately grandeur, mixed with horror and awe at the universe stretching out before you, for a more earthy, 'action blockbuster' feel. Sometimes it worked, much of the time, it felt a bit lightweight compared to the controlled and sober handling of ME1.
I think it has many improvements too (far smoother running, much better graphics (although I don't care for the style in which they are presented at times), no damned MAKO anymore. And whilst the team still isn't great, it keeps most of the people I liked from ME1 and has a couple of good new 'uns (most notably Mordin).
I still used Tali and Garrus as soon as I had them both, though.
Ultimately, it wasn't bad I guess, but Cerberus being Bioware's darlings just pushed it over the edge for me. I certainly didn't like it as much as ME1, but that doesn't mean I hated it by any stretch.
But in ME 3, I'd like to see more RPG elements, and a much fairer deal between the alignments.
Thanks all - you've put with me very patiently. Enjoyed talking with you all.
#256
Posté 03 février 2010 - 11:48
kappukiino
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I'd say even if Cerberus had done some evil stuff, theyre REALLY the necessarily evil, the Council blew you off even if you SAVED them and basicly the WHOLE GALAXY, i mean they doubted u before, u prooved them wrong and still they stab you in the back.
Cerberus however is willing to fight against the Reapers, so even if not all their actions were justified and even if some of them believe in human dominance, many Cerberus members seem to have joined simply because Cerberus is willing to make a difference and fight for humanity, for the galaxy, something the Council and Citadel is not.
Cerberus however is willing to fight against the Reapers, so even if not all their actions were justified and even if some of them believe in human dominance, many Cerberus members seem to have joined simply because Cerberus is willing to make a difference and fight for humanity, for the galaxy, something the Council and Citadel is not.
#257
Posté 03 février 2010 - 12:02
Edje Edgar
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As a dedicated paragon player (In my 5 playthroughs of ME1 I didn't play renegade once) I share some of your concerns. However I felt I could give cerberus the finger whenever I wanted to. You can tell everyone your not working FOR cerberus, but WITH on a temporary basis. The council even takes you back based on this giving you the order to break your ties with cerberus as soon as possible.
I rushed to the council as soon as I could. Got re-instated as a Spectre. I understood the council could not take direct action. Thus they send me back to find out whats goin on, and as usual being a spectre using any means necessary. Including cerberus. Pissing off the IM at the end was just the icing on the cake.
I rushed to the council as soon as I could. Got re-instated as a Spectre. I understood the council could not take direct action. Thus they send me back to find out whats goin on, and as usual being a spectre using any means necessary. Including cerberus. Pissing off the IM at the end was just the icing on the cake.
#258
Posté 03 février 2010 - 12:32
elmephd1
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Paragon Shepard is working with Cerberus just because they're the only ones with the resources and the will to do something about the Collectors. Without them, no ship, no information, Reapers win.
By the time the mission is over the crew practically worships you, EDI is unshackled and is telling you every Cerberus secret she knows, Miranda leaves Cerberus, you've technically "stolen" the incredibly expensive Normandy and given the Illusive Man the finger virtually face to face. You've saved humanity and screwed up Cerberus big time.
By the time the mission is over the crew practically worships you, EDI is unshackled and is telling you every Cerberus secret she knows, Miranda leaves Cerberus, you've technically "stolen" the incredibly expensive Normandy and given the Illusive Man the finger virtually face to face. You've saved humanity and screwed up Cerberus big time.
#259
Posté 03 février 2010 - 12:40
Hurbster
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I'd like to know what sort of work TIM has had done on his eyes.
#260
Posté 03 février 2010 - 01:07
SurfaceBeneath
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How did people not get the chance to tell TIM or Cerberus off? If you choose paragon options while speaking to him, Paragon Shep makes it blatantly clear that they aren't working "for" Cerberus, only working with them because Cerberus is the only organization that is supporting Shep at the moment. Paragon Shep -has- to work with Cerberus, but certainly doesn't like it.
And at the end of the game if you choose to blow up the reaper facility, you give a big giant "F U" to TIM and essentially steal the ship and its crew away from him.
So umm... I dunno guys. Seems to me that your points aren't very valid.
And at the end of the game if you choose to blow up the reaper facility, you give a big giant "F U" to TIM and essentially steal the ship and its crew away from him.
So umm... I dunno guys. Seems to me that your points aren't very valid.
#261
Posté 03 février 2010 - 01:30
Nozybidaj
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ModernDayMoriarty wrote...
But the game is so nauseauatingly insistant that Cerberus is okay. Even in the final scene, I didn't get to tell the Illusive Man to sod off. I don't know if I did something wrong - I took every opportunity (such as they were) to disobey him and take him to task.
I joined the Spectres again (which was never mentioned after that conversation), forwarded Cerberus intel to the Alliance, took no side missions directly issued by Cerberus... and all I got to say to him was 'We do things my way - you can either shaoe up or move out of the way'.
He complained that I was making a mistake, but it still didn't sound like I had left Cerberus. I was furious!
And after I played Jack's side mission (I didn't the first time, but reloaded and did it)... I mean, what the hell?!
You get TIM's voice over the com, saying that all the other kids but Jack are expendable, along with the fact that even if it did go rogue, the fact that so many of these cells go that way, shows they are far too dangerous to have around.
But what exactly were they up to at that biotic school? It can't all have been purely above board, considering TIM makes the 'expendable' statement. But that info is never commented on by Shepard!
After the mission, I was utterly disgusted with Cerberus. And what did Shepard do about it?
Nothing at all. Business as usual.
There was the fight between Miranda and Jack, where Shepard came in, took Jack;s side and.... said that Miranda was acting unprofessionally?!
That's it?!!!! After all you saw, that's the only thing you have to say?! And if you use the Paragon persuade, she just tells both of them that the mission is too important for them to be fighting and they leave it at that!
Not to mention that you can support Jack, then go to Miranda and use the Paragon persuade to say that you were just acting with Jack - that you only said it to keep her on side?
I mean.... I don't even know what to say.
And then the ultimate insult - an e-mail from TIM saying he knew nothing about it, none of the kids were harmed and he even fired the people responsible.
Oh, well why didn't you say so? I have no problem believing that story. It doesn't sound like a pack of lies at all...
The man who can find Collector Ships, actual Reapers(!) and bring people back from the dead etc. Yet when anything goes wrong (and despite him personally overseeing every project), he suddenly knows nothing.
You know, I have a feeling that what he said... well, it may not be entirely true...
We're talking about kids tortured and raised to fight each other, when they weren't being kept in dank cells like animals...
And I'm allowed to say absolutely nothing about it! Who decided that this is how it should be? Who decided that at the end of the game, you don't get to report to the Alliance or make ammends with the people who've been lambasting you about Cerberus...
Why does the game insist on assuming I'm perfectly content to either stay in Cerberus as the boss, or go solo or something? When did I ever choose that?!
Legion puts it best, summing up this game in one brilliant sentence:
'They judge that forcing an unwanted connection on us, is preferable to a continued schism'.
He's talking about the Geth heretics etc, but that's a perfect way to encapsulate this game. Because of the myriad paths, people could be taking, they chose one and pressed it into accepting it.
Yes, in my heart, I know my Shepard would never follow Cerberus or their ideals, no matter how much Bioware love TIM and apologise and retcon for Ceberus, so you can be your free-wheeling band of Big Damn (anti) Hero space desperados etc.
But when the game continually refuses to let me be anything but a more or less willing member of Cerberus, when all the significant NPCs treat me and continue to refer to me as a Cerberus member... it just feels so utterly pointless even playing.
You simply cannot ever tell Cerberus what swines they are to their faces and expose their misdeeds and lies of omission etc. You just get it constantly hammered home that they are the ones who are helping, resurrected you etc.
And every time they hit with the 'Magic Plot Stick of Cerberus Know and can Do Anything', I felt more and more angry.
Seriously, this game was not written well. Other aspects of the game were good, but the believability and just the lack of interest in the main plot story, was unforgiveable. The collectors are such a bland, seen it all before enemy.
And the Harbinger was just ridiculous with his 'Shepard... I... am the EPIC WIN - Bwa ha ha ha ha!''
(I'm just to put up a few thoughts on the story here, as I think we've thrashed the topic to a reasonable conclusion, so here's as good a place as any to say what I thought of it).
But it's the fact that the game is essentially one huge recruiting drive, with some extremely dodgy Collector levels tacked on, is just sad. The loyalty missions are okay, but it does flag up the fact that the team members get far more focus than Shepard herself!
Shepard gets the 'I died, but got better' story, which lasts about 2 seconds, then she does little of significance in the rest of the game, beyond being the standard 'Action Commander'.
Her finest moment is saving Joker and that's right at the start! In fact, Joker steals the show utterly with his (unfortunately very short) level near the end. ANd he even gets to mow people down with an assault rifle in the end sequence!
Shepard gets nothing to rival her intimate connection to the Protheans and to Saren, with the visions she received and Cipher that she shared with him in ME 1. She gets no action sequences as good as the duel with Saren at Virmire.
That fight alone is better than anything in ME2 (with the possible exception of the flight in towards the Collector base - although the Collector ship quickly succumbs to 'It was hard, but now it just dies in seconds' syndrome.
The story of ME 1 is just so much tighter and better written, with a proper enemy and decent resolution. ME2 is considerably more trashy (as in fun, but quite lightweight). The giant human reaper thing at the end...
Oh dear, oh dear...
The game sacrificed ME 1's stately grandeur, mixed with horror and awe at the universe stretching out before you, for a more earthy, 'action blockbuster' feel. Sometimes it worked, much of the time, it felt a bit lightweight compared to the controlled and sober handling of ME1.
I think it has many improvements too (far smoother running, much better graphics (although I don't care for the style in which they are presented at times), no damned MAKO anymore. And whilst the team still isn't great, it keeps most of the people I liked from ME1 and has a couple of good new 'uns (most notably Mordin).
I still used Tali and Garrus as soon as I had them both, though.
Ultimately, it wasn't bad I guess, but Cerberus being Bioware's darlings just pushed it over the edge for me. I certainly didn't like it as much as ME1, but that doesn't mean I hated it by any stretch.
But in ME 3, I'd like to see more RPG elements, and a much fairer deal between the alignments.
Thanks all - you've put with me very patiently. Enjoyed talking with you all.
Quoting the whole thing since it should be read twice. You summed up most of my feelings about the game just about perfectly.
#263
Posté 03 février 2010 - 01:47
eldanori
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I knew this game was going to be bad when Shepard dies in the first five minutes.
I knew it was going to be even worse when my only option leaving the Lazarus Project was "what about the others?" and "okay, fine, let's go."
The Shepard that saved the Council, talked down Wrex, reformed Garrus and saved the galaxy would easily be able to get Miranda and Jacob to follow her back into the base looking for survivors. If Shepard turned around and said "I'm looking for survivors, you do what you want", TIM's orders and purpose would have required Miranda and Jacob to either follow or find some way to disable Shepard and physically drag her off the base. And there's just no good reason why those options could not have been put in.
The Lazarus Project example is just the first of many such incidents. There really is no excuse for it. The rail-roads are so much tighter in ME2 that it's ridiculous. This isn't "I don't want to be a Grey Warden/Spectre/Jedi". This is "let me actually make CHOICES, dammit!"
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how ME1 fit on one disc and felt so massive, spanning, and varied, while ME2 takes two discs and has such a diminished feeling of depth, scale, and meaning.
There are good things - Tali's trial, Mordin in general, Legion and Thane - but the things that are good are small in scale, and only peripheral to the over-arching plot, which is rubbish.
The game does not make you feel the urgency of the Collector attacks. It does not give you any attachment to the human colonies being harvested. The prime source of your information that there's anything wrong is TIM himself, and most of the defence of Cerberus is based on believing what he says! He's the head of a terrorist organisation - Shepard knows this as fact - and the whole game is based on taking his word for it.
That is the worst part. Our only source of information that there's a problem is Cerberus, and we're just supposed to accept what they say, accept that they're the only ones doing anything about it (which isn't even true, since Kaiden/Ashley is on Horizon looking into it), and accept that no one else wants to do anything about it just because everyone dismisses us from the start because we're "with Cerberus".
The game just assumes that you join up with Cerberus and accept their truths, and gives no way to independently verify their story, no way to seek help aside from them, and prematurely cuts off all other options before you've even made a decision.
This is not the same game as Mass Effect. It's not the trilogy's Empire. It's the trilogy's Phantom Menace.
I knew it was going to be even worse when my only option leaving the Lazarus Project was "what about the others?" and "okay, fine, let's go."
The Shepard that saved the Council, talked down Wrex, reformed Garrus and saved the galaxy would easily be able to get Miranda and Jacob to follow her back into the base looking for survivors. If Shepard turned around and said "I'm looking for survivors, you do what you want", TIM's orders and purpose would have required Miranda and Jacob to either follow or find some way to disable Shepard and physically drag her off the base. And there's just no good reason why those options could not have been put in.
The Lazarus Project example is just the first of many such incidents. There really is no excuse for it. The rail-roads are so much tighter in ME2 that it's ridiculous. This isn't "I don't want to be a Grey Warden/Spectre/Jedi". This is "let me actually make CHOICES, dammit!"
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how ME1 fit on one disc and felt so massive, spanning, and varied, while ME2 takes two discs and has such a diminished feeling of depth, scale, and meaning.
There are good things - Tali's trial, Mordin in general, Legion and Thane - but the things that are good are small in scale, and only peripheral to the over-arching plot, which is rubbish.
The game does not make you feel the urgency of the Collector attacks. It does not give you any attachment to the human colonies being harvested. The prime source of your information that there's anything wrong is TIM himself, and most of the defence of Cerberus is based on believing what he says! He's the head of a terrorist organisation - Shepard knows this as fact - and the whole game is based on taking his word for it.
That is the worst part. Our only source of information that there's a problem is Cerberus, and we're just supposed to accept what they say, accept that they're the only ones doing anything about it (which isn't even true, since Kaiden/Ashley is on Horizon looking into it), and accept that no one else wants to do anything about it just because everyone dismisses us from the start because we're "with Cerberus".
The game just assumes that you join up with Cerberus and accept their truths, and gives no way to independently verify their story, no way to seek help aside from them, and prematurely cuts off all other options before you've even made a decision.
This is not the same game as Mass Effect. It's not the trilogy's Empire. It's the trilogy's Phantom Menace.
#264
Posté 03 février 2010 - 04:51
elmephd1
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ModernDayMoriarty wrote...
But the game is so nauseauatingly insistant that Cerberus is okay. Even in the final scene, I didn't get to tell the Illusive Man to sod off. I don't know if I did something wrong - I took every opportunity (such as they were) to disobey him and take him to task.
I don't know either, I played Paragon and managed to give the Illusive Man a big f*** you (the "shut up" option).
I joined the Spectres again (which was never mentioned after that conversation), forwarded Cerberus intel to the Alliance, took no side missions directly issued by Cerberus... and all I got to say to him was 'We do things my way - you can either shaoe up or move out of the way'.
What else are you going to say? You could rant and rave at him but it wouldn't matter to him, he see's himself as humanities benefactor. Wouldn't even make him blink and Shepard knows this. Meanwhile human colonies are vanishing.
Virtually all the paragon options make it abundantly clear Shepard hates Cerberus.
He complained that I was making a mistake, but it still didn't sound like I had left Cerberus. I was furious!
You just screwed Cerberus over bigtime. You have an incredibly expensive warship they paid for, EDI's information on Cerberus and turned a highly trusted member of Cerberus to your way of thinking. You did more damage in ME2 to Cerberus then anything you did in ME1.
That's it?!!!! After all you saw, that's the only thing you have to say?! And if you use the Paragon persuade, she just tells both of them that the mission is too important for them to be fighting and they leave it at that!
Which is right, the mission is to save humanity.
Shepard gets nothing to rival her intimate connection to the Protheans and to Saren, with the visions she received and Cipher that she shared with him in ME 1. She gets no action sequences as good as the duel with Saren at Virmire.
S/he gets the Illusive Man, who they screw over royally. For me it was a crowning moment of awesome, seeing the all powerful Illusive Man suddenly impotent.
As for the action scenes, the battle with Saren on Virmire wasn't really all that good. In fact I had forgotten all about it until reading your post.
#265
Posté 03 février 2010 - 09:24
Mallissin
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In hindsight, can Cerberus even go to the collector base if you don't blow it up? You have the only Reaper IFF installed on Normandy.
Was the IFF to get through the relay, force field on the other side or the protection system that shot at you anyway?
Edit: Nevermind. Got my answer here:
Was the IFF to get through the relay, force field on the other side or the protection system that shot at you anyway?
Edit: Nevermind. Got my answer here:
Modifié par Mallissin, 04 février 2010 - 12:32 .
#266
Posté 04 février 2010 - 03:05
ModernDayMoriarty
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No, I'm sorry, but it is not right at all, that people playing Shepard with any kind of moral fibre, should not be allowed to express any anger at what happened to Jack and those other kids.
If your Shepard can put it all aside and concentrate on the mission, then fine. But surely you can see, that many people would have a real problem with being silenced on this. At the very least, I wanted to be able to say 'This mission needs to be completed, but after that, we are well and truly done, you sick (fill in blank with favourite expletive)!'
Again, there are justications that some people are trying to make for why Shepard would do this and that, but these are besides the main point, which I and several others are trying to get across.
That the game is supposed to allow full range of options on how your character thinks about the situations before him/her. You can't just force the 'Yes, I agree that Cerberus has its reasons for the things it does' or 'I disagree with them, but I'll keep my mouth shut for the good of the mission' opinions on those of us who don't agree with them.
I and many others here, feel that the game's writing did not do nearly enough to convince us that Cerberus' solutions were the only viable options. We feel insulted that the writers have freely altered and retconned large swathes of the story (if you had played ME1 as Paragon certainly), in order to fit their new version of events.
They never explain why a Paragon who gets their Spectre status back and leaves on good terms with the Council and Alliance, cannot funnel info back to them as she works for Cerberus. Not telling them about the Reaper ship in the Traverse is just criminal - that was the break that my Shepard had been waiting for!
Hard evidence that the Reapers exist, sitting in an area of space that the Council has no issue with sending agents into. And yet i wasn't allowed to do anything of the sort.
Let's just remind ourselves that I was only working with Cerberus because I couldn't convince them the Reapers were real, and because they wouldn't go into the Terminus Systems. The Reaper is in Hawking Eta - in the Traverse, where you went in the first game (and so a place where the Citadel and Alliance can and do operate).
Why on earth wouldn't I tell them? This is a golden opportunity. Or do you think Shepard's response would be to say 'Hmm, I don't know, maybe we should wait until we find the next Reaper sitting inert in neutral space...'
Of course not. Time isn't an issue either, since the game specifically offers you the choice to go straight there or continue building your team. Ample opportunity to zip back to the Citadel and say 'How do you like them apples?' to Anderson and the Council.
Spectre of the Month trophy... Oh, if you insist...
But no, we have to keep quiet about it (even if we go to see Anderson in person!) and go in under the Cerberus banner, because... answers on a postcard. There simply isn't any reason why a Citadel and Alliance affiliated character would do this, when the chance to free themself from Cerberus' grasp presented itself.
And this isn't like Sovereign's wreck - this is an intact ship, full of data, full of proof... And you don't even get the option to tell them. And hell, Bioware would probably have just blown us off, with a 'No, we won't help, unless you actually tow the thing into the Council Chamber and get a full confession from it' or something equally silly and unlikely.
And on the subject of Anderson, whilst I remember... I left on reasonably cordial terms with him (despite his 'You're Cerberus) remarks. Yet when I went back later and spoke about Ashley on Horizon, the only response I was allowed to give him was 'You were spying on me?'
Seriously, what choice are we being given here, to play our Shepard in character? None.
As to the 'They resurrected you, so you'd do whatever they say' talk... That is the most appalling simplification of a complex issue. But the most signiicant factor before we get into specifics, is again that the player should be free to make up their own minds on what Shepard's reaction would be.
The idea that my Shepard would allow them to use this to turn her into something she despises is just monstrous. And as I said, she would rather die all over again than become someone who condone murder, torture and exploitation of innocent people.
As a Paragon Shepard can explain to Miranda, its strength of character and spirit that really makes you who you are. That's how you measure your real worth and who you really are, rather than by what you can do or what you know. If my Paragon Shepard started acting in accordance with Cerberus' radically different beliefs, she wouldn't be the same person anymore.
And in this at least, TIM knows he has to take a risk with Shepard (or should have to, if the game didn't utterly dilute it). He can't just change who she fundamentally is.
Which is in accordance with most sci-fi, which agrees that the soul is not something you can manipulate to any great degree. Even if you did achieve some sort of mental control, the soul would remain the same, screaming to make itself heard and compromising that control.
And it works with baser, more diseased souls too, of course, (A Clockwork Orange, for example). Doktor Tenenbaum from Bioshock also comments on this, saying 'ADAM enchanced everything about a man - except his character. Perhaps purity of spirit is something found only in your genes' to that game's equivalient of the Paragon.
So if he wants the original Shepard, TIM just has to hope she will help, by appealing to her sense of duty, humanity and/or reason etc.
Which again, would be fine if that's how it played out, instead of having to endure the 'Great, so you're onboard and now you're fully behind Cerberus, let's get on with the game... La la la...'
It should tip Shepard off even more strongly that these people are despicable, when Miranda candidly explains that she would have implanted a control chip in you. How you would ever trust or respect her after that, is quite simply beyond me. She would happily have made you into a drone, yet argues later that the rogue cells had 'clearly' overstepped the mark?
And that's not even mentioning the whole issue of what a character would do if they did believe in God and the afterlife etc. I realise that its so big a topic that you just couldn't include it, when many, if not most won't consider it an issue.
But for those who do, it's an appalling omission. It might not even be so bad if they hadn't brought up God and religion in ME1, because you could have simply argued that you had taken a creative choice not to refer to such things.
But they had, and they had given Shepard the opportunity to declare his/her faith. So, it's a thorny issue, to be sure amongst those who care about such things. And if you aren't prepared to tackle issues this sensitive properly (and particularly when you do it in such a throwaway manner as this), then just stay away!
The fact is that the resurrection story is feebly told. There's just no defence - it is never mentioned! It never comes up except at the start and the very, very end (for one line of dialogue). Tali doesn't even comment on it, when you see her again (but then, she gets over her father''d death in a couple of minutes, so...)
And you can accept TIM's methods if you like (it's your call and I don't have a problem with that). But we wanted our say too, the chance to play the way we wanted to play - Renegades certainly got to tell the Council (amongst other authority figures) what they thought of them.
Our issue isn't that the Cerberus path has no credibility at all - it's the fact that they spent so much time going over and polishing up their actions and history, to the exclusion of all other factions and points of view.
The complete backtracking and rewriting of the Paragon ending to ME1 is just criminal. It spoke of a new era of co-operation, where Humans had impressed and won the respect of the galactic community etc.
Speak to C-Sec officer Harris during Thane's loyalty mission and he tells you that humans are now widely disliked as fascist bullys, that they have too many people in C-Sec etc. That alien politicans are now running on Anti-Human' platforms, not through racism towards them, so much as the fact that Humanity's actions towards aliens are becoming so unacceptable.
It all supports the view of the Citadel that would exist in the Renegade, Human Council led by Udina ending of ME1. It completely ignores how things were in the Paragon ending.
The thing they're going for is that the Citadel/Human Council now appears to be the facist organisation, concerned with only their own matters and cracking down on aliens etc. Meanwhile, Cerberus are shown (with the aid of Bioware's Magic Retcon Wand), to be much less facist than they were previously.
It's a complete 180 of how things were in the Paragon ending of ME1. It only makes any sense if you played the Renegade ending and put Udina in charge of a human council. And even then, you'd still need to completely overhaul Cerberus.
I don't want to come across that I'm dismissing how much you liked the game. If it worked for you, then that's great.
But for those of us who wanted to play a character of good moral principles, with the strength to stand up for those principles, who cared enough to be really hurt when all their friends started making false charges that they worked for and supported Cerberus, who sighed in utter despair when various characters say 'You used to be a Spectre, did you not?', and werem't allowed to say that they had been reinstated....
Who plain and simple, disliked that the ME world as it stood in the Paragon ending of ME1, was totally suborned to the Renegade one in ME2.
There simply wasn't enough choice in the dialogue trees, and the overall standard of writing was far more trashy and pulpy than before. It has its moments, but overall, this was a big let-down for me.
But there's always hope - it's not like I think ME2 is the worst game ever or anything.
Anyway, that's enough out of me.
If your Shepard can put it all aside and concentrate on the mission, then fine. But surely you can see, that many people would have a real problem with being silenced on this. At the very least, I wanted to be able to say 'This mission needs to be completed, but after that, we are well and truly done, you sick (fill in blank with favourite expletive)!'
Again, there are justications that some people are trying to make for why Shepard would do this and that, but these are besides the main point, which I and several others are trying to get across.
That the game is supposed to allow full range of options on how your character thinks about the situations before him/her. You can't just force the 'Yes, I agree that Cerberus has its reasons for the things it does' or 'I disagree with them, but I'll keep my mouth shut for the good of the mission' opinions on those of us who don't agree with them.
I and many others here, feel that the game's writing did not do nearly enough to convince us that Cerberus' solutions were the only viable options. We feel insulted that the writers have freely altered and retconned large swathes of the story (if you had played ME1 as Paragon certainly), in order to fit their new version of events.
They never explain why a Paragon who gets their Spectre status back and leaves on good terms with the Council and Alliance, cannot funnel info back to them as she works for Cerberus. Not telling them about the Reaper ship in the Traverse is just criminal - that was the break that my Shepard had been waiting for!
Hard evidence that the Reapers exist, sitting in an area of space that the Council has no issue with sending agents into. And yet i wasn't allowed to do anything of the sort.
Let's just remind ourselves that I was only working with Cerberus because I couldn't convince them the Reapers were real, and because they wouldn't go into the Terminus Systems. The Reaper is in Hawking Eta - in the Traverse, where you went in the first game (and so a place where the Citadel and Alliance can and do operate).
Why on earth wouldn't I tell them? This is a golden opportunity. Or do you think Shepard's response would be to say 'Hmm, I don't know, maybe we should wait until we find the next Reaper sitting inert in neutral space...'
Of course not. Time isn't an issue either, since the game specifically offers you the choice to go straight there or continue building your team. Ample opportunity to zip back to the Citadel and say 'How do you like them apples?' to Anderson and the Council.
Spectre of the Month trophy... Oh, if you insist...
But no, we have to keep quiet about it (even if we go to see Anderson in person!) and go in under the Cerberus banner, because... answers on a postcard. There simply isn't any reason why a Citadel and Alliance affiliated character would do this, when the chance to free themself from Cerberus' grasp presented itself.
And this isn't like Sovereign's wreck - this is an intact ship, full of data, full of proof... And you don't even get the option to tell them. And hell, Bioware would probably have just blown us off, with a 'No, we won't help, unless you actually tow the thing into the Council Chamber and get a full confession from it' or something equally silly and unlikely.
And on the subject of Anderson, whilst I remember... I left on reasonably cordial terms with him (despite his 'You're Cerberus) remarks. Yet when I went back later and spoke about Ashley on Horizon, the only response I was allowed to give him was 'You were spying on me?'
Seriously, what choice are we being given here, to play our Shepard in character? None.
As to the 'They resurrected you, so you'd do whatever they say' talk... That is the most appalling simplification of a complex issue. But the most signiicant factor before we get into specifics, is again that the player should be free to make up their own minds on what Shepard's reaction would be.
The idea that my Shepard would allow them to use this to turn her into something she despises is just monstrous. And as I said, she would rather die all over again than become someone who condone murder, torture and exploitation of innocent people.
As a Paragon Shepard can explain to Miranda, its strength of character and spirit that really makes you who you are. That's how you measure your real worth and who you really are, rather than by what you can do or what you know. If my Paragon Shepard started acting in accordance with Cerberus' radically different beliefs, she wouldn't be the same person anymore.
And in this at least, TIM knows he has to take a risk with Shepard (or should have to, if the game didn't utterly dilute it). He can't just change who she fundamentally is.
Which is in accordance with most sci-fi, which agrees that the soul is not something you can manipulate to any great degree. Even if you did achieve some sort of mental control, the soul would remain the same, screaming to make itself heard and compromising that control.
And it works with baser, more diseased souls too, of course, (A Clockwork Orange, for example). Doktor Tenenbaum from Bioshock also comments on this, saying 'ADAM enchanced everything about a man - except his character. Perhaps purity of spirit is something found only in your genes' to that game's equivalient of the Paragon.
So if he wants the original Shepard, TIM just has to hope she will help, by appealing to her sense of duty, humanity and/or reason etc.
Which again, would be fine if that's how it played out, instead of having to endure the 'Great, so you're onboard and now you're fully behind Cerberus, let's get on with the game... La la la...'
It should tip Shepard off even more strongly that these people are despicable, when Miranda candidly explains that she would have implanted a control chip in you. How you would ever trust or respect her after that, is quite simply beyond me. She would happily have made you into a drone, yet argues later that the rogue cells had 'clearly' overstepped the mark?
And that's not even mentioning the whole issue of what a character would do if they did believe in God and the afterlife etc. I realise that its so big a topic that you just couldn't include it, when many, if not most won't consider it an issue.
But for those who do, it's an appalling omission. It might not even be so bad if they hadn't brought up God and religion in ME1, because you could have simply argued that you had taken a creative choice not to refer to such things.
But they had, and they had given Shepard the opportunity to declare his/her faith. So, it's a thorny issue, to be sure amongst those who care about such things. And if you aren't prepared to tackle issues this sensitive properly (and particularly when you do it in such a throwaway manner as this), then just stay away!
The fact is that the resurrection story is feebly told. There's just no defence - it is never mentioned! It never comes up except at the start and the very, very end (for one line of dialogue). Tali doesn't even comment on it, when you see her again (but then, she gets over her father''d death in a couple of minutes, so...)
And you can accept TIM's methods if you like (it's your call and I don't have a problem with that). But we wanted our say too, the chance to play the way we wanted to play - Renegades certainly got to tell the Council (amongst other authority figures) what they thought of them.
Our issue isn't that the Cerberus path has no credibility at all - it's the fact that they spent so much time going over and polishing up their actions and history, to the exclusion of all other factions and points of view.
The complete backtracking and rewriting of the Paragon ending to ME1 is just criminal. It spoke of a new era of co-operation, where Humans had impressed and won the respect of the galactic community etc.
Speak to C-Sec officer Harris during Thane's loyalty mission and he tells you that humans are now widely disliked as fascist bullys, that they have too many people in C-Sec etc. That alien politicans are now running on Anti-Human' platforms, not through racism towards them, so much as the fact that Humanity's actions towards aliens are becoming so unacceptable.
It all supports the view of the Citadel that would exist in the Renegade, Human Council led by Udina ending of ME1. It completely ignores how things were in the Paragon ending.
The thing they're going for is that the Citadel/Human Council now appears to be the facist organisation, concerned with only their own matters and cracking down on aliens etc. Meanwhile, Cerberus are shown (with the aid of Bioware's Magic Retcon Wand), to be much less facist than they were previously.
It's a complete 180 of how things were in the Paragon ending of ME1. It only makes any sense if you played the Renegade ending and put Udina in charge of a human council. And even then, you'd still need to completely overhaul Cerberus.
I don't want to come across that I'm dismissing how much you liked the game. If it worked for you, then that's great.
But for those of us who wanted to play a character of good moral principles, with the strength to stand up for those principles, who cared enough to be really hurt when all their friends started making false charges that they worked for and supported Cerberus, who sighed in utter despair when various characters say 'You used to be a Spectre, did you not?', and werem't allowed to say that they had been reinstated....
Who plain and simple, disliked that the ME world as it stood in the Paragon ending of ME1, was totally suborned to the Renegade one in ME2.
There simply wasn't enough choice in the dialogue trees, and the overall standard of writing was far more trashy and pulpy than before. It has its moments, but overall, this was a big let-down for me.
But there's always hope - it's not like I think ME2 is the worst game ever or anything.
Anyway, that's enough out of me.
Modifié par ModernDayMoriarty, 04 février 2010 - 01:11 .
