265 réponses à ce sujet

[MICHELLE7]

You do make some excellent points. As paragon Shep I felt helpless. I really can't see Shepard not being able to find some other way after all as a spectre he/she is free to practically do anything she wants anyway she sees fit. Why not just take TIM's info and Ship and tell him to get lost? I would have kicked off the Cerberus staff and ripped that stupid symbol from the side of the ship.

[MikeFL25]

Michelle, you are right, the Spectres can do anything. Shepard wouldn't even need to go to the Council. Why wasn't there an option for Shepard to say something like, "It is my decision that, utilizing my status as a Spectre, I declare this vessel Council property, and henceforth this mission will proceed under Alliance and Council support."

This way, the Council wouldn't even need to believe Shepard (they didn't in ME1 either), but since he is a Spectre they would have to support him.  Shepard would no longer be with Cerberus, and then your ME1 team members wouldn't need to flip out.

Modifié par MikeFL25, 01 février 2010 - 03:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

DesetFox1943 wrote...

Friggin Paragons >_>

This.

Does anyone else play Renegade not because it's badass (even though it is) but because that is the best way to save human lives? The "no one needs to die" idealism is nice to think about, but when a war is going on the enemies need to be taken out and I will team up with anyone who gives me the best opportunity to do so.

Full renegade is a short sighted ****.
Full paragon is a naive idealist who isn't good at anything.

A mix of both, in other words, moderation is the best imo. Moderation in anything is usually always the best.

[Garuda One]

MikeFL25 wrote...

Michelle, you are right, the Spectres can do anything. Shepard wouldn't even need to go to the Council. Why wasn't there an option for Shepard to say something like, "It is my decision that, utilizing my status as a Spectre, I declare this vessel Council property, and henceforth this mission will proceed under Alliance and Council support.

This way, the Council wouldn't even need to believe Shepard (they didn't in ME1 either), but since he is a Spectre they would have to support him.

The Council made it clear that Shepards Specter status would only work in the Terminus System, this was they can still keep him KIA to the public until further notice and because the Terminus System is so unrulely that it really wouldn't matter.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

DesetFox1943 wrote...

Friggin Paragons >_>

This.

Does anyone else play Renegade not because it's badass (even though it is) but because that is the best way to save human lives? The "no one needs to die" idealism is nice to think about, but when a war is going on the enemies need to be taken out and I will team up with anyone who gives me the best opportunity to do so.

Full renegade is a short sighted ****.
Full paragon is a naive idealist who isn't good at anything.

A mix of both, in other words, moderation is the best imo. Moderation in anything is usually always the best.

I agree in part. Although I play my main character Renegade, I do not choose all renegade options. My main character is a hardass that will do whatever it takes to save innocent lives. He is not a sadist. Options such as being mean to Tali when her dad dies is an example of a Renegade option that makes your character just a big dick, not a pragmatic hero.

[JudgeQwerty]

MikeFL25 wrote...

Michelle, you are right, the Spectres can do anything. Shepard wouldn't even need to go to the Council. Why wasn't there an option for Shepard to say something like, "It is my decision that, utilizing my status as a Spectre, I declare this vessel Council property, and henceforth this mission will proceed under Alliance and Council support."

This way, the Council wouldn't even need to believe Shepard (they didn't in ME1 either), but since he is a Spectre they would have to support him.  Shepard would no longer be with Cerberus, and then your ME1 team members wouldn't need to flip out.

You're a Spectre BECAUSE you work for them. They only have to support you as long as you're A) getting the job done and not starting crap. They absolutely forbid from entering the Terminus Systems in both games, which is why your Spectre status doesn't mean squat in ME2.

[Homebound]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

Okay, so here's what I think.

Before you start reading this, I want to make a few things clear. I am not the greatest fan of this game, but I did like the first one and I like Bioware in general. I paid my money for the game and I'm entitled to my say. If you are someone who refuses to accept any opinon other than 'It's the greatest thing ever', then that's great, but don't bother reading this.

Secondly, I don't expect 99% of people to actually read all this. I want to have my say - it doesn't mean you have to read it. I know there's a lot of text here, but the way the game tries to subvert you to accepting its story requires detailed exposure.

Lastly, if you do like to play as a Renegade, then knock yourselves out, because the story more or less works in that case (its still boring, but at least it tracks if you're a 'Gade). It's only if you want to play as a Paragon and someone of moral principle, that the game confines and constricts all the joy out of playing.

Anyway...
So I guess the main issue I have with this game is Cerberus. Namely that I hate having to work for them, and it has pretty much ruined the game completely for me. I found it outrageous that a Paragon Shepard isn't allowed to take them to task for all their vicious experiments etc, and the idea that you would work for them under any circumtances.

This game only works if you are even modestly receptive to Cerberus, but my character simply never would be. They are simply too villainous and the game just doesn't play fair in allowing you to tell things like they are. It constantly pulls the '24' card of saying 'There are no other options - this is the only way we can do this etc etc'.

But it just isn't true. Shepard is someone who can convince everyone from street thugs to high ranking diplomats to follow his/her train of thought - except when it's the Council and the Illusive Man. With the Council, she just says 'Oh, if you're going to be like that!' and blows them off; with the Illusive Man, it's just 'Aye aye Sir; where next?'

Shepard has plenty of options, if you were just allowed to pursue them. For a start, you could make a proper appeal to the Council. Request private audiences with at least the Asari, Human and Salarian councillors. Sit down with them and say 'Look, colonies really are being attacked. I want to help, but I don't want to join Cerberus'.

In more extreme methods, you could ask Anderson to have a C-Sec team ready at the embassy. Arrest Miranda and Jacob as you walk in, impound the Normandy and confiscate the ship's logs, crew etc for questioning. Jacob wouldn't take much convincing, if you simply sat him down and told him about Cerberus' heinous actions in ME1.

And what are Cerberus going to do about it? They are terrorists - they can't very well complain if they get arrested for swanning into the Citadel in an exact replica of a top secret Turian/Human military ship that was supposedly destroyed in mysterious circumstances. I doubt Udina or Anderson would be very vocal in supporting their rights...

If you really couldn't convince the Council, then you could still go military. Contact Ash or Kaiden, or ask Anderson to point you to someone who would spare a ship and crew. The fact is that human colonies are being attacked and someone has to do something about it. Ash and Kaiden even say that they would have helped if Shepard had just come to them (and I was screaming at the screen, wondering why I hadn't been allowed to do just that).

It's the disparity between how the game treats your interaction with the Council/Alliance and Cerberus that really kills it. See the Council in both games and it makes you shout and rail at them, as they accuse you of all sorts (usually even when you're trying to be polite).

And this is blatant manipulation by Bioware, because you can make no such arguments to The Illusive Man. Your resistance to co-operation with Cerberus is all 'I don't know if I can trust you' and 'You're racist terrorists etc'. But that's completely besides the point! It isn't about trust or whether I prefer the system - it's the fact that they are so unremittingly vicious and wiped out whole colonies themselves with their experiments - on humans I might add.

It doesn't help that Cerberus have been changed since the last game. Whereas before, they were esentially a bioweapons 'Science without morals for the furthance of Humanity' version of Babylon 5's Psi-Corps, they are now portrayed as a more open, Maquis style group.

That's a big change, because the Maquis generate considerably more sympathy than the Psi-Corps. The former are frequently written as heroes, fighting off evil on their borders at any cost, whilst the Federation does nothing to help (which is basically what Cerberus now are).

Conversations with them and their followers always get boiled down to 'they get the **** done, whilst the Council do nothing etc etc.' Never mind that it only works like that because Bioware have manipulated it that way. (In a similar way that regardless of what you did with the Rachni in ME1, they chewed you out - Bioware just didn't want you to like them).

Cerberus are suddenly vastly more informed, armed, possessed of incredible tech etc and the Alliance is just blanket termed as stupid and neglectful, despite this being highly improbable (would the Council really not send even one of their other Spectres to investigate or the Alliance really not have any problems with no help from them?!)

And the whole ship is like a gigantic piece of Cerberus propaganda. The crew is filled with elements intended to seduce players into accepting Cerberus. Bright, plucky, loveable crackpots like the engineering duo and Yeoman Chambers, EDI, the cranky cook etc, make the ship seem warm and friendly. The presence of Joker and Dr Chakwas also supports this (who are just two examples of people who should know better, going along with this - Samara is another).

The crew constantly make 'good honest working folk' conversation as you pass, about their kids and families and how they'd be dead if it wasn't for Cerberus etc etc. They put in the sexy, ice queen with all the curves etc to win over 'The Lads' and give you this entirely artifical feel of freedom to do what you want, with no Council or Alliance ordering you about (again, highly manipulative, as it was always very odd that Shepard had so much oversight, despite the Spectre mandate sugesting that wouldn't be the case).

But this is all just window dressing to get the player on side. We know what Cerberus have done - the first game was filled with tales of their terrible misdeeds. They injected acid blood into helpless victims just to see what would happen. They transformed people into biological weapons and killed everyone who tried to expose them.

Making Shepard throw in with these people and not letting her tell the ridiculously ignorant crew members about the horrors she has seen their organisation perpetrate is just too much. Because it's clear from the way they talk, people only conisder Cereberus' dark rep to be about possible alien racism and defiance of Alliance and Council with acts of terrorism etc.

Which are hardly small crimes, but certain disenfranchised people could get on board with that. Their medical horroshows though are an entirely different matter. And saying it was particular cells, just shows the danger that an organisation with such lax oversight (if you want to say TIM didn't know or approve of those cells), is capable of becoming.

Basically the game only shows you the tourist spots of Cerberus. It gives you the illusion of being in a freedom fighter group, without flagging up or even mentioning their darker side in all but the most vague and skimmed over terms. Would Samara really join an organisation that did the things in ME1? She kills people for doing anything wrong - except mass muder and medical torture it seems.

The game only works if you buy into this highly manipulated and railroaded path. Just saying Shepard is doing the only thing she can, doesn't make it true. She doesn't need the Normandy - the intro makes it abundantly clear that it isn't the ideal ship for the job anyway! The collectors can see through the Stealth System - which is the only advantage the Normandy had.

A Paragon Shepard should be trying to convince the Council and Alliance to give her control of a much heavier craft, a Cruiser or something. And just because the game doesn't let you or the Council speak to each other like civilised beings, doesn't make it believable - it exposes how badly executed and manipulated the story is.

And lastly... there is the whole 'Dead for two years' nonsense. Clearly just put in to give you a reason to thank Cerberus and be wiling to work with them. Putting aside the utter nonsense of the whole thing (you can recreate the Prothean cipher, Shepard's mind etc, along with her body?), it's all over in a flash.

Shepard takes it all very well, doesn't she? She doesn't even say anything about it, never dwells on it and even if you stated that you believed in God in ME1, doesn't worry that she experienced nothing whilst 'dead' etc. Plus no-one else seems remotely interested in this event (Tali must see this sort of thing a lot...).

The fact is, it's not real to her or us, because so little is made of it. And saying that she and her love interest etc should be grateful and do whatever Cerberus say is utterly ridiculous. If a loved one returned from the dead, but was completely different from the person you knew in terms of morality, it'd be worse than if they never came back.

You don't just stop being who you are, and Paragon Shepard towing the line of an organisation she fought and hated for their evil and sadism, because they saved her... Well it feels uncomfortably like a rape victim broken to the Master's Lash, just because the Master is being nice to them for now (particularly if you lived through Akuze).

At the very least, it deserved some soul searching, where a Paragon would have to weigh their disgust at the organisation to the relief and bewilderment that they resurrected her. There were great possibilities for inner torment etc there, the need for her to carry on and be a symbol for Humanity now she is back.

But instead... nothing.

 And it could so easily have been avoided. If you want to make Shepard have to follow Cerberus, take the Council etc out of the equation on a more believeable note. Have them engaged in war against certain races for example, so their attention is focused on a threat they can see, as opposed to a threat that might be coming.

It would be easier for the Paragon to accept their decision not to help under those circumstances. You could also say that your previous team members are away in that conflict, where you cannot follow them, much as you want to see them - because you have a Shadow war (don't say it) to fight, for which you have no option but to use Cerberus.

THAT is something I could have got behind. It would have made sense to me, rather than the 'But thou must!' way that you're made to serve Cerberus, as it stands.

In this situation, you would be able to cut away the Citadel altogether. Might annoy some, but it serves no purpose in this game anyway. It's a just a cancerously sparse location that exposes how railroaded you are into accepting working for our friends, the big C.

On the offchance that you're still reading this, I say again that I have written this as someone who cares about the series and Bioware. But having to do Cereberus' bidding, when I had so many other options on how to proceed, made me thororougly miserable.

I just couldn't enjoy the game, because I was constantly frustrated at how I was unable to defend myself when people said 'You're with Cerberus - you're a fool, they're evil etc', given that I agreed 100%, but wasn't allowed to say anything other than 'I have to - it's the only way...' (and sometimes you can't even say that)>

And to add insult to injury, they even give you side missions! So not only am I helping them on the main mission, I have to do their dirty work, securing materials and weapons for them?

I think not!

I concur.

[Harkmagic]

I completely agree, and the only way I got through it was at every opertunity to to remind everyone that I do not work for Cerberus. I also reveled in every chance I got to screw over Cerberus.



I also had to play under the assumption that the crew, and squad, at least after playing a while, was Loyal to me and not to Cerberus. Except for Miranda I wanted to put a bullet in her head.



Of course the biggest disappointment of ME2 was not getting to put a bullet in TIM's head.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I think it was a brilliant choice to have Shepard being "rescued" by Cerberus, It gives a new feel for that game rather than just have it set in the Alliance once again.

And in any case a Paragon Shepard would care more about the thousand of lives at risk and the need to do something about that right away, Rather than moan about the color of his/her uniform.

The game never forces you to anything pro-Cerberus, In fact it gives you able opportunity to undermine it from the inside and even steal away key personnel, Prototype and expensive equipment and an assortment of other important Cerberus assets.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 01 février 2010 - 03:27 .

[Nautica773]

MICHELLE7 wrote...

You do make some excellent points. As paragon Shep I felt helpless. I really can't see Shepard not being able to find some other way after all as a spectre he/she is free to practically do anything she wants anyway she sees fit. Why not just take TIM's info and Ship and tell him to get lost? I would have kicked off the Cerberus staff and ripped that stupid symbol from the side of the ship.

I didn't start with a paragon beginning, so some of this may not be how the game starts, but:

Isn't Cerberus the organization that brought you back? Even if you were to turn them in, what makes you think they would hand you the Normandy v.2? You had to be gifted the original Normandy from the Admiral. Plus, Nihilus had to jump on board the original Normandy instead of being given his own ship. I don't think Specters have free reign over the galaxy where they can just enlist whoever they want and confiscate whatever they want.

Don't forget, the Council isn't your friend. The writers take great (almost ridiculous) pains to constantly have the Council impede Shepard's actions against the Reapers. At the end of ME you had to steal the Normandy in order to continue your grudge match against Saren. Why do you think the Council is going to  give you carte blanche now?

As Specter is more like a secret agent than a free agent. They still have to follow the orders of the Council even if those orders are to 'not investigate the Reapers anymore.'

[Spinnazie]

Is your vision of the ME universe so black and white?

You're telling me no matter what you'd never "work" for someone (this term is used extremely lightly) even if they BROUGHT YOU BACK TO LIFE.

You act as if they are making you commit some heinous crime against the galaxy. They want you to stop the Collectors. A group working for the Reapers and abducting tens of thousands of humans, a group that most likely intends to invade earth and take every human life and turn them into a new Reaper.

That whole post is a big giant whine fest. Get over it.

Modifié par Spinnazie, 01 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[Brahlis]

God, what a stupid post.

Without Cerberus, you're dead. Alright, let's decide you tell them to blow it out your ass because you're such a Paragon you won't work with them ... BOOM, you have no Normandy, you don't save the day, everyone dies.

Nice game.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Spin****e wrote...

Is your vision of the ME universe so black and white?

You're telling me no matter what you'd never "work" for someone (this term is used extremely lightly) even if they BROUGHT YOU BACK TO LIFE.

You act as if they are making you commit some heinous crime against the galaxy. They want you to stop the Collectors. A group working for the Reapers and abducting tens of thousands of humans, a group that most likely intends to invade earth and take every human life and turn into a new Reaper.

That whole post is a big giant whine fest. Get over it.

Thank you.

[Lost Cipher]

Simply put Choice is a lie!

This game series may elude or pretend to give the player choice over his or her actions, but in reality all the player is doing is altering story points along a board and witnessing the consequence of those actions.

In no true literal way do we have any choice in this game, it was written and produced by a team of writers, game designers, and programmers. Do you fit in any of those three categories? Did you write the game? Did you make it?

All this game is, is an interactive entertainment experience. In essence Gears of War, or Uncharted 2 with a Dialog tree corresponding to future cause and effect. So what might seem logical to you, really doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day they still have your $60, and it's still their IP.

Modifié par Lost Cipher, 01 février 2010 - 03:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Spin****e wrote...

Is your vision of the ME universe so black and white?

You're telling me no matter what you'd never "work" for someone (this term is used extremely lightly) even if they BROUGHT YOU BACK TO LIFE.

You act as if they are making you commit some heinous crime against the galaxy. They want you to stop the Collectors. A group working for the Reapers and abducting tens of thousands of humans, a group that most likely intends to invade earth and take every human life and turn into a new Reaper.

That whole post is a big giant whine fest. Get over it.

Sadly, the human race is full of potential zealots, plagued with manichean stupidity.
It's like being a Grey warden debate all over again.

Yes, it is a whine fest.  

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

A well written rant, but misplaced and easy to refute. You must have missed out on the dialogue in ME2 where both the council and Alliance simply won't touch you for political reasons. Remember, "Paragon Shepard" to everyone in the ME 2 (save for Cerberus) is that awesome Commander who defeated the Geth, but was bat**** crazy in his quest to kill "Reapers".

I spent a lot of time shutting down the horrible Exogeni and Cerberus experiments in ME1, however it would be far more of a travesty to do nothing. Cerberus said to Paragon Shepard "Do what you need to do, in WHATEVER manner you choose, to get the job done." There's no reason why Shepard still can't be the great hero, regardless of the insignia on his uniform.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 01 février 2010 - 03:34 .

[Kalduin]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I think it was a brilliant choice to have Shepard being "rescued" by Cerberus, It gives a new feel for that game rather than just have it set in the Alliance once again.

And in any case a Paragon Shepard would care more about the thousand of lives at risk and the need to do something about that right away, Rather than moan about the color of his/her uniform.

The game never forces you to anything pro-Cerberus, In fact it gives you able opportunity to undermine it from the inside and even steal away key personnel, Prototype and expensive equipment and an assortment of other important Cerberus assets.

 The above is a really good example of the design philosophy I think, being a tool of the council again would of been stale, 'tis a new game and needed new ideas.

 As he also said, you are given tons of opportunities to undermine Cerberus almost every moment you can, while still utilizing their resources. 

  The real threat is the Reapers, when the galaxy isn't about to be completely wiped of life, you can then sort through the lesser evils, in the meantime, don't look a gift Cerberus in the mouth.

[Dellingr]

There's a Star Trek: DS9 episode in which captain sisko does a number of seriously despicable things (staging an assasination was one of them, I think) in order to manipulate the Romulans into joining the dominion war on starfleet's side-starflee'ts losing and need serious help fast



at the end of the episode, he takes stock of if all:

"At oh-eight-hundred hours, station time... the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They've already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So, this is a huge victory for the good guys! It may just be the turning point of the entire war! There's even a "Welcome to the Fight" party tonight in the wardroom!... So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I was an accessory to murder. But most damning of all... I think I can live with it... And if I had to do it all over again... I would. Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I'll learn to live with it...Because I can live with it...I can live with it. Computer – erase that entire personal log."



I see it as a little like that, mind you I turned Jacob and Miranda to my side, blew up the base and told TIM to get stuffed at the end, 'cause humans aren't here to dominate, we're here to stand alongside

[Mad Oreo 112091]

Guaritor wrote...

As a paragon... with the lives of thousands of humans at risk... i'd take the cerebrus gift instead of going through the politics of the citadel and the alliance fleet, make sure the collectors don't take one more damn human life.

That was my reasoning as well, and Jacob, and Miranda turned out to be pretty likable characters once I got to know them.

[Spinnazie]

Dellingr wrote...

There's a Star Trek: DS9 episode in which captain sisko does a number of seriously despicable things (staging an assasination was one of them, I think) in order to manipulate the Romulans into joining the dominion war on starfleet's side-starflee'ts losing and need serious help fast

at the end of the episode, he takes stock of if all:
"At oh-eight-hundred hours, station time... the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They've already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So, this is a huge victory for the good guys! It may just be the turning point of the entire war! There's even a "Welcome to the Fight" party tonight in the wardroom!... So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I was an accessory to murder. But most damning of all... I think I can live with it... And if I had to do it all over again... I would. Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I'll learn to live with it...Because I can live with it...I can live with it. Computer – erase that entire personal log."

I see it as a little like that, mind you I turned Jacob and Miranda to my side, blew up the base and told TIM to get stuffed at the end, 'cause humans aren't here to dominate, we're here to stand alongside

^^^^ THIS

It really makes me wonder if the OP even beat the game.

[Spinnazie]

double post

Modifié par Spinnazie, 01 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[Raveyn]

I always get a chuckle when I see how much people hate some characters. It always makes me wonder if they ever took the time to get to know them past how the game originally presents them.



Miranda is an awesome character with some amazing depth. But most people that hate her seem to have her pre-judged. Some Paragons....always casting judgements without looking at the big picture or trying to see past their own prejudices. It's the same people that always seem to call Ashley a bigot never realizing that they have the ability to change her perspective if they just take the time to try.



Honestly, the OP has some great points but I have to side with people like Dellingr. Pay attention to the story and what you are really able to accomplish within the confines of the game. Instead of making a list of all the things you can't do, enjoy everything you CAN. You may be surprised at how much of a difference you can make in this made up story to fit your perspective of good vs evil.

[Kittykat1984]

I'm hoping to storm Cerberus HQ and kill the Illusive man in ME3 i was hoping to in ME2

[Solid N7]

Spin****e wrote...

Dellingr wrote...

There's a Star Trek: DS9 episode in which captain sisko does a number of seriously despicable things (staging an assasination was one of them, I think) in order to manipulate the Romulans into joining the dominion war on starfleet's side-starflee'ts losing and need serious help fast

at the end of the episode, he takes stock of if all:
"At oh-eight-hundred hours, station time... the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They've already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. So, this is a huge victory for the good guys! It may just be the turning point of the entire war! There's even a "Welcome to the Fight" party tonight in the wardroom!... So... I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover up the crimes of other men. I was an accessory to murder. But most damning of all... I think I can live with it... And if I had to do it all over again... I would. Garak was right about one thing – a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I'll learn to live with it...Because I can live with it...I can live with it. Computer – erase that entire personal log."

I see it as a little like that, mind you I turned Jacob and Miranda to my side, blew up the base and told TIM to get stuffed at the end, 'cause humans aren't here to dominate, we're here to stand alongside

^^^^ THIS

It really makes me wonder if the OP even beat the game.

^^^^^THIS